The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[Honu]

Honestly, I may be totally out of the loop, but I haven't heard anyone say that she should leave the race while she still has a chance. Who's saying this?

A few people in the media have urged HRC to step down, but the party certainly hasn't.

I'm sure that if the shoe was on the other foot and Clinton had won the last 11 (or 12, I forget ), Obama would have been strong armed from the race long before now.

 

[JARNJ3]

A few people in the media have urged HRC to step down, but the party certainly hasn't.

I'm sure that if the shoe was on the other foot and Clinton had won the last 11 (or 12, I forget ), Obama would have been strong armed from the race long before now.

I don't think that would be the case - but then again - we come with different perspectives.....

From Politico: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/8788.html

Obama supporters have some advice for HRC

By: Chris Frates
Mar 2, 2008 03:37 PM EST


Some supporters of Democratic Sen. Barack Obama suggested on the Sunday shows today that rival Sen. Hillary Clinton should reevaluate whether to stay in the race if she fails to win Tuesday’s contests in Texas and Ohio by large margins.

“None of us is going to suggest what decision she ought to make, but I think the bottom line is you have to measure the realities," Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry said on CNN's “Late Edition" with Wolf Blitzer.
“The reality is that Hillary Clinton has to win a big victory in both Ohio and in Texas, not just winning a little bit," Kerry said. "In order to close the gap on the pledged delegates, she’s got to win a very significant victory.”

Another Obama backer, Sen. Dick Durbin, made a similar point on "Fox News Sunday."

“I hope that her decision on her future after Tuesday is made in the interest of unity of our party and ultimately winning in November,” Durbin said.

Fox's Chris Wallace asked Clinton supporter Sen. Dianne Feinstein whether Clinton would hurt the Democratic Party if she fails to narrow Obama's lead Tuesday but stays in the race anyway.

“This is not an also-ran candidate," Feinstein protested. "Hillary Clinton is a major candidate. She has every right to stay in the race if she chooses to do so.”

Kerry would love for her to drop out - as a super delegate for MA, he'll be voting against his own constituents' wishes, by choosing Obama.......

 

[eclectics]

A few people in the media have urged HRC to step down, but the party certainly hasn't.

I'm sure that if the shoe was on the other foot and Clinton had won the last 11 (or 12, I forget ), Obama would have been strong armed from the race long before now.

While he certainly doesn't represent the party in an "official" capacity, I thought Bill Richardson has come out and asked her to step down. Maybe I misread the article.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

I don't think that would be the case - but then again - we come with different perspectives.....

From Politico: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/8788.html



Kerry would love for her to drop out - as a super delegate for MA, he'll be voting against his own constituents' wishes, by choosing Obama.......

I respect Sen. Clinton and the fact that you so passionately support her campaign. However, even President Clinton himself has said that if she can't win TX and OH, she can't win the nomination. What do you make of that?

 

[Planogirl]

I think that Hillary is trying to rally her supporters. I think that's at least most of it.

 

[dcentity2000]

I'm gonna get mullered for this, but here goes...

President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals.

So Bush heard God?

Here's the thing: how do you know that God is speaking to you and how do you know that it's just not evidence of a psychotic disorder? I know one patient, for instance, who was utterly convinced that spirits were talking to him.

I'm not saying that God doesn't talk to people. I'm just raising that little element of doubt.



Rich::

 

[Honu]

I don't think that would be the case - but then again - we come with different perspectives.....

We definitely do have a different POV. I just know the HRC camp would be screaming bloody murder for Obama to concede if he had lost 12 in a row and started in with negative campaign tactics. And they'd be right.

 

[Laura]

I think that Hillary is trying to rally her supporters. I think that's at least most of it.

I agree. She's really close in the delegate count, and has only recently had a lot of losses to Obama. I think from the way the polls are looking, she'll have reason to drop out on Tuesday. A month ago she had Ohio and Texas in the bag, and now she's either behind or in a statistical tie in both states.

And I will be sorry to see her drop out, like I was sorry that Richardson and Edwards and Biden dropped out. I kinda wish they could all be President.

 

[Hound 109]

Yeah I think that was a big message of wha'ts to come on Wednesday from others if Clinton can't get two big wins in TX and OH (not 5%).

If HC doesn't win Ohio & Tex by 5 pts. she should bail? That sounds like BCS Football logic.

I think she should take it to Penn if she wins 2 of the 4 states tomorrow.

& until the dems decide what to do with Michigan & FL (or until BO racks up the required delegates for the nomination)..... she shouldn't throw in the chips.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

If HC doesn't win Ohio & Tex by 5 pts. she should bail? That sounds like BCS Football logic.

I think she should take it to Penn if she wins 2 of the 4 states tomorrow.

& until the dems decide what to do with Michigan & FL (or until BO racks up the required delegates for the nomination)..... she shouldn't throw in the chips.

...and the BCS sucks just as bad as the Democratic nomination process!!

 

[JARNJ3]

I respect Sen. Clinton and the fact that you so passionately support her campaign. However, even President Clinton himself has said that if she can't win TX and OH, she can't win the nomination. What do you make of that?

Thanks, I think.

Yes, President Clinton did say she had to win both states - but I am not sure he was speaking for the campaign itself.........

We'll know on Wednesday or Thursday how this all plays out......

Again - they are only apart 100 delegates or so - with so many more to be allocated........

 

[JARNJ3]

If HC doesn't win Ohio & Tex by 5 pts. she should bail? That sounds like BCS Football logic.

I think she should take it to Penn if she wins 2 of the 4 states tomorrow.

& until the dems decide what to do with Michigan & FL (or until BO racks up the required delegates for the nomination)..... she shouldn't throw in the chips.

I agree. 2 out of 4. If its less than that - she's going to be under tremendous pressure - if only from the media - who so seem to want Obama to win......

But remember - they build them up - just to tear them down.......

 

[DISUNC]

If Barak looses all 4 states Tuesday, should he bailout on Wednesday morning?????

My point is neither should bail out until there absolutely no way mathematically they can get the nomination. There still is 1,387 delegates up for grabs!!!!!!

We Democrats are not dealing with Huckabee & Paul situation here.

When all is said & done we can have one candidate with 2024 & one with 2025 delagates. The one with 2025 will get the nomination.

 

[NewJersey]

If HC doesn't win Ohio & Tex by 5 pts. she should bail? That sounds like BCS Football logic.

I think she should take it to Penn if she wins 2 of the 4 states tomorrow.

& until the dems decide what to do with Michigan & FL (or until BO racks up the required delegates for the nomination)..... she shouldn't throw in the chips.

No, I'm saying if she only wins by a few percentage points, I don't see how there is any way she can catch him in pledged delegates, given the contests that are left. After the Potomac primaries and then WI/HI, the media was saying she needs 65%ish of the vote in OH and TX and if the polls are any indication, she'll win TX and OH by slim margins, and could lose the delegate count. If that happens, I'm sure we will hear the spin about how she is the comeback kid and the voters have given her new life - but the fact of the matter remains she is behind in pledged delegates and probably won't catch Obama there.

As far as MI and FL, the rules were set by the DNC (as stupid as there was), so that is the end of that story. Just because it benefits Hillary to seat them (she was the only name on the MI ballot by the way), doesn't make it right to bend the rules.

If she doesn't come up with decisive victories on Tuesday, she should drop out. The same would be said of Obama.



Take this scenario:

Clinton wins OH and TX by 5% and takes a net pickup of 10 delegates between the four contests on Tuesday - so now she is 140 delegates behind. We hear all about the great comeback of Hillary Clinton (even though she was up by 10-20 points in OH and TX a few weeks ago) and the kitchen sink campaign strategy continues. Then we have WY and MS next which will probably be routs for Obama, given the trend of similar contests. Then we have 5 weeks until PA votes, where her lead is down to 6%.


Of the remaining states after Tuesday, the following are favorable to Hillary:
PA, WV, KY, Guam
for Obama:
WY, MS, IN, NC, OR, MT, and SD

I just don't see how she can win the pledged delegate total and I don't believe for a second, the party wants a convention where the superdelegates overturn the voters' choice. Talk about a broken party coming out of Denver...

 

[profdsny]

I'm gonna get mullered for this, but here goes...



So Bush heard God?

Here's the thing: how do you know that God is speaking to you and how do you know that it's just not evidence of a psychotic disorder? I know one patient, for instance, who was utterly convinced that spirits were talking to him.

I'm not saying that God doesn't talk to people. I'm just raising that little element of doubt.



Rich::

You think God would have a better idea of who to pick. And since he or she knows all, then why pick an abject failure? Unless he (or she) was just joking around and all the gods are having a great laugh over this.

 

[DISUNC]

I'm gonna get mullered for this, but here goes...



So Bush heard God?

Here's the thing: how do you know that God is speaking to you and how do you know that it's just not evidence of a psychotic disorder? I know one patient, for instance, who was utterly convinced that spirits were talking to him.

I'm not saying that God doesn't talk to people. I'm just raising that little element of doubt.




Rich::

Reminds me of the old Lily Tomlin joke..."Why is it that when we talk to God we're said to be praying, but when God talks to us we're schizophrenic?"



ps You made me google the term "mullered"
Good word

 

[DISUNC]

Of the remaining states after Tuesday, the following are favorable to Hillary:
PA, WV, KY, Guam
for Obama:
WY, MS, IN, NC, OR, MT, and SD

I just don't see how she can win the pledged delegate total and I don't believe for a second, the party wants a convention where the superdelegates overturn the voters' choice. Talk about a broken party coming out of Denver...

Let the people vote, and NOT the polls!!!!!!!!

6 months ago Hillary had a huge lead! So should all the other candidates quit then?

 

[JARNJ3]

Let the people vote, and NOT the polls!!!!!!!!

6 months ago Hillary had a huge lead! So should all the other candidates quit then?

Very good point!!!!

Here's a quote from Gloria Steinem:

In her speech, Steinem argued that there was a major sexist component to the murmurs from some quarters suggesting Clinton should abandon her presidential quest.

There is, she said, “a great deal of pressure at play for her to act like her gender and give in.” Several shouts of “No!” came from the crowd. Steinem went on: “It’s a way of reinforcing the gender roles, right? Men are loved if they win and Hillary is loved if she loses…But maybe we shouldn’t be so afraid of an open convention that actually decides something. After all, it was an open convention in New York City that gave us Abraham Lincoln.”

 

[NewJersey]

6 months ago Hillary had a huge lead! So should all the other candidates quit then?

That's comparing apples to oranges - the campaign hadn't even begun. We are now in the fourth quarter and need to unite behind a candidate. If the race Wednesday still as it is today, Hillary didn't accomplish what she had to: score two decisive wins in TX and OH.


Oh and come on about that quote about "playing her gender and giving in" - can you imagine Obama saying, "They want me to act like the inferior black man and give in to the white folks?" Why does she always need to remind the voters about her gender?

 

[Hound 109]

No, I'm saying if she only wins by a few percentage points, I don't see how there is any way she can catch him in pledged delegates, given the contests that are left. After the Potomac primaries and then WI/HI, the media was saying she needs 65%ish of the vote in OH and TX and if the polls are any indication, she'll win TX and OH by slim margins, and could lose the delegate count. If that happens, I'm sure we will hear the spin about how she is the comeback kid and the voters have given her new life - but the fact of the matter remains she is behind in pledged delegates and probably won't catch Obama there.

As far as MI and FL, the rules were set by the DNC (as stupid as there was), so that is the end of that story. Just because it benefits Hillary to seat them (she was the only name on the MI ballot by the way), doesn't make it right to bend the rules.

If she doesn't come up with decisive victories on Tuesday, she should drop out. The same would be said of Obama.



Take this scenario:

Clinton wins OH and TX by 5% and takes a net pickup of 10 delegates between the four contests on Tuesday - so now she is 140 delegates behind. We hear all about the great comeback of Hillary Clinton (even though she was up by 10-20 points in OH and TX a few weeks ago) and the kitchen sink campaign strategy continues. Then we have WY and MS next which will probably be routs for Obama, given the trend of similar contests. Then we have 5 weeks until PA votes, where her lead is down to 6%.


Of the remaining states after Tuesday, the following are favorable to Hillary:
PA, WV, KY, Guam
for Obama:
WY, MS, IN, NC, OR, MT, and SD

I just don't see how she can win the pledged delegate total and I don't believe for a second, the party wants a convention where the superdelegates overturn the voters' choice. Talk about a broken party coming out of Denver...

I think we both understand the math. I just haven't heard a logical reason how the democratic party could not include FL VOTERS & MI VOTERS in determining their candidate. I understand the the two state parties screwed the pooch...but,

how can the Democratic party state that these two swing state's voters don't "count"? Not only does it not make sense (to me), but it's a HUGE general election political mistake (for either dem. nominee).

there's a month between Tuesday's primary's & Penn's primary. Plenty of time to do a "do over". & they should do a do over.

I don't see how a nominee could be named.... who did not win....CA, NY, FL, MI, Mass, NJ, (possibly Ohio & TX) & Penn. The democratic nominee will need to win 7 or 8 of these states in November.

Good for him that he won ND & Idaho, but I'd rather know how these two heavyweights would fare in FL & MI. Give them 2 weeks to campaign & send the right message to these two states & to the country. Even BO would agree with this i suspect. If he has more delegates after Penn & those two states then he deserves the nomination.

But, if he claims victory w/o a vote in those states, & w/o a win in the 8 states named above..... (to me)..... it would be like going undefeated in the Big East or WAC in football & claiming you should be #1 over one loss SEC, Big 12 or Pac 10 teams. A weak & hollow win & not the way to start a general election against a war hero.