The Future of Dues/Maint. Fees...

Matty B13

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
If you don't need 2 bedrooms every year then, you could probably make things would with between 200-300, but you really have to look at the point charts and where you want to stay. Also, don't look at the high demand units like BWV standard or AKV "value" rooms for your points needs.
 

Ben E N

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
I most certainly believe Disney will raise rack rates. The question, just like dues, is how much? I factored in a 5% a year increase in rack rates in the spreadsheet.
I would guess they will ebb and flow with demand. Expect big increases this year with Star Wars, then less in 2020, then a bunch more in 2021. Because DVC is sold out all the time, those dues are based more on cost. This last increase was bad, as will some future ones, but it won't depend on what's going on at the parks as much.
 

Madame

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
I am much more concerned with their apparent ability to manipulate the points charts than rising dues
I am too, but I think it's going to get lost in the shuffle with this DVC I/II announcement, which I'm sure was on purpose. If they've manipulated the charts in order to accomodate a new exchange into which not all members will now be able to exchange, then I just don't see how it is justifiable. However, not many seem to care :confused3
 
  • 4luv2cdisney

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 30, 2008
    I am too, but I think it's going to get lost in the shuffle with this DVC I/II announcement, which I'm sure was on purpose. If they've manipulated the charts in order to accomodate a new exchange into which not all members will now be able to exchange, then I just don't see how it is justifiable. However, not many seem to care :confused3
    I

    100% agree
     

    TheMick424

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Nov 19, 2009
    @TheMick424 You are never going to get the numbers to work in your favor vs off-site accommodations. We are "on-site people". If my option was WDW off-site or take a different vacation, take a different vacation wins everytime. If off-site was an option for us, I'm 99 percent certain I'd never own DVC. If you find you still enjoy your off-site accommodations, you are probably better off just doing that every other year and not adding on.

    I am much more concerned with their apparent ability to manipulate the points charts than rising dues, limiting benefits, OR even limiting my places to stay.
    We always enjoyed our off-site accommodations until our last trip when we ran into some issues. The townhouse we rented was not in good shape, and the management company was clearly having some financial difficulties and not paying bills (and we had used them 3 or 4 times previously over the years with no issues). The cable company shut off internet and TV to the unit we were staying in during our stay, and despite repeated attempts to get the management company to address, it was never resolved. Left a sour taste in our mouth for going the condo rental route again because you just never know, and the savings margin had started to narrow. I figure if I am going to spend that much money on a vacation, I want a company that will take care of issues (one way or another). Coincidentally, this management company folded very shortly after our trip.

    Given that we have a trip coming at the end of February, I think I'm going to wait it out on adding on, and see how we do with our stay. The rumored direct price increase at my home resort is about $5/pt, so not a huge difference for the number of points I was considering adding.
     

    KAT4DISNEY

    Glad to be a test subject
    Joined
    Mar 17, 2008
    The historical dues increase at AKV of 10% for 2019 is one of the major reasons I haven't jumped on another contract since our first attempt didn't make it through ROFR last month. Do you guys feel this is a one time hike and dues will go back to the historical average of 3%-4% a year in 2020 forward, or has Disney set a new precedent and 7%-10% will be the new norm? I've ran the 7%-10% increase through a "break even" spread sheet and it seems in most scenarios you are better off paying Disney's rack rates instead of going with DVC.
    MF's are not willy nilly things that they are supposed to be able to make up on a whim. They are based on operation of the resorts. One little caveat is that some of that is operated by Disney business arms and Disney certain has been willing to increase prices of things. And we're at the mercy of them adding things that might cost more. Still, if there is basis to increase MF's then there is likely basis that everything is increasing including Disney hotels unless they are going to start taking a lower profit margin.
     

    mustinjourney

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 8, 2016
    The cost to buy enough points for 2 bedroom units at resorts with villas and hotels is cheaper than getting 2 hotel rooms at the same resort. We are staying at VGF this February in a 2 bedroom unit for about $4000 for the whole week, the same unit cash is over $1200/night if you can get it, and most of the hotel rooms are $580/night or more so $580x2x7days. But you could probably do better cash wish at a "value" resort at Disney.

    So it really matters on where you want to stay, if it is deluxe resorts in multiple hotel rooms, you can save big with DVC, but you also have to have close to 400 points a year to go every year.
    Yup.

    I have a feeling a lot of longtime DVC owners haven't a clue how much these hotels cost now. And if people think there's going to be 30% off rack rate or free dining once SW:GE opens up -- they're going to be in for a rude awakening.
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    Yup.

    I have a feeling a lot of longtime DVC owners haven't a clue how much these hotels cost now. And if people think there's going to be 30% off rack rate or free dining once SW:GE opens up -- they're going to be in for a rude awakening.
    Based on the early ticket price increases at Disneyland, we can plan for three things:
    1. Hotel rates are about to go up, very significantly
    2. Ticket prices will as well
    3. We are not going to be getting any special DVC ticket discounts this year...
     

    MommaBerd

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 5, 2011
    This is actually the kind of info I need to keep in front of mind. Longer term, I won't want a 2BR every year, but I don't think we can afford to hold 400 points. I was targeting 300. Maybe I need to rethink my strategy. Sigh...
    Until these last couple of weeks, I would have said that you can always rent the extra points...but now I am concerned that Disney will next target the rental market. Hopefully not, as I think that would be a HUGE mistake on their part. Anyhow, it is *currently* an option.
     

    TheMick424

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Nov 19, 2009
    Until these last couple of weeks, I would have said that you can always rent the extra points...but now I am concerned that Disney will next target the rental market. Hopefully not, as I think that would be a HUGE mistake on their part. Anyhow, it is *currently* an option.
    I would wager the rental market is on their list of things they wish would go away.
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    I would wager the rental market is on their list of things they wish would go away.
    Yes and no. It's something I'm sure they are keeping a very close eye on, as it is both good and bad for them. Bad, of course, because it is keeping some people out of their rooms, but they cut back on both Polynesian and Wilderness Lodge to make those rooms, so it is a wash in those areas.
    The good for them may outweigh the bad. When we rented DVC points, we had to buy our own tickets. We also dined out about once every other night, if not more. Now that we are owners, we just use our discounted annual passes, and dine out much less frequently. In planning our summer trip, I made only one ADR, and that was for an anniversary dinner.
    Disney I'm sure has much more data on this than my simple anecdotal examples, but I would not be surprised to see that it actually benefits them to have people renting DVC points than it hurts them.

    This is also a much bigger issue than what just DVC management is worried about. As long as dues are paid and renters don't damage the room any more than owners would, it wouldn't make a difference to them who stays there. It would make a big difference to Disney Parks as a whole, though.
     

    DVC Fanatic

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2018
    As others have stated, everything has increased at Disney over the last 2 years. Price of parking is now $25 minimum at the parks, a fountain drink is $4, you have to pay to park at hotels. But for anyone that has been to Disney over the last year should know and understand why. I grew up in Orlando and have been going to the parks for the last 25 years. I have never seen so many construction projects all at the same time. Look at the new hotels going up, roads being reshaped and improved, the sky liner, attractions at the parks. Disney takes in a lot of money, but they are also spending a ton right now. Not to mention the tens of thousands of people required every day to make sure everything functions.

    I have only been a member of DVC since 2018 and I would be worried if DVC items were the only thing increasing. But from what I can see, DVC costs have remained low and increased at a slower pace than other items. If this trend continues, I too might be worried, but I think things will stabilize after this year or after another increase. Disney is the one and only and those willing to pay will always pay. If not get out. Clearly many are willing to pay the inflated costs because the crowds at the parks and resorts are always increasing. It is hard to find an off season as Disney has really found a way to capitalize and fill every season with some type of event to fill the parks.
     

    TheMick424

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Nov 19, 2009
    Yes and no. It's something I'm sure they are keeping a very close eye on, as it is both good and bad for them. Bad, of course, because it is keeping some people out of their rooms, but they cut back on both Polynesian and Wilderness Lodge to make those rooms, so it is a wash in those areas.
    The good for them may outweigh the bad. When we rented DVC points, we had to buy our own tickets. We also dined out about once every other night, if not more. Now that we are owners, we just use our discounted annual passes, and dine out much less frequently. In planning our summer trip, I made only one ADR, and that was for an anniversary dinner.
    Disney I'm sure has much more data on this than my simple anecdotal examples, but I would not be surprised to see that it actually benefits them to have people renting DVC points than it hurts them.

    This is also a much bigger issue than what just DVC management is worried about. As long as dues are paid and renters don't damage the room any more than owners would, it wouldn't make a difference to them who stays there. It would make a big difference to Disney Parks as a whole, though.
    Valid points and I agree about renters likely spending more on things like meals, etc. I just think that Disney would rather that any/all of the money stemming from rentals of points go into their pockets. Squeezing every last drop.
     

    MommaBerd

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 5, 2011
    This is also a much bigger issue than what just DVC management is worried about. As long as dues are paid and renters don't damage the room any more than owners would, it wouldn't make a difference to them who stays there. It would make a big difference to Disney Parks as a whole, though.
    I hope that this remains the attitude. And you are correct about how much money renters are likely to spend vs. Members. The fact is that Disney’s room occupancy is already at what 90%? They would almost be foolish not to allow rentals. I imagine if they did, LOTS of people would end up down there on a resort-only vacation.
     

    _auroraborealis_

    I like marshmallows. And adult beverages.
    Joined
    Oct 18, 2015
    Rentals have been explicitly permitted in every contract for every DVC point sold to date. It would be a drastic switch to try to disallow it, save potentially going forward via DVC2. Because of the length of time in which it has been contractually a-okay, they would have a battle rescinding the privilege across the 14 legacy resorts. It's not an incidental benefit. It's tied directly to the real estate interest purchased, which also makes changing this harder.

    If they managed to say "no rent" in the Riviera contracts, though, man, that would make Riviera resale even worse.
     

    KAT4DISNEY

    Glad to be a test subject
    Joined
    Mar 17, 2008
    Rentals have been explicitly permitted in every contract for every DVC point sold to date. It would be a drastic switch to try to disallow it, save potentially going forward via DVC2. Because of the length of time in which it has been contractually a-okay, they would have a battle rescinding the privilege across the 14 legacy resorts. It's not an incidental benefit. It's tied directly to the real estate interest purchased, which also makes changing this harder.

    If they managed to say "no rent" in the Riviera contracts, though, man, that would make Riviera resale even worse.
    I read a section in the 2016 multi site POS that I didn't recall seeing before - how rentals could be ended. But then they admit in the next sentence that they rent and go on with the warning to not buy to rent because you'll be competing with DVC renting and WDW hotels and so may not be competitive enough in the rentals etc etc.
     

    glamdring269

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 7, 2013
    Something I've been meaning to ask and this may be a decent thread to figure it out since rising maintenance fees could lead someone to this.

    Let's say you own your contract outright and all you owe are the yearly dues. What happens if you don't pay? Ever? Is this something Disney will come after you to get or can you just hand the contract back and say 'nevermind'?
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    Something I've been meaning to ask and this may be a decent thread to figure it out since rising maintenance fees could lead someone to this.

    Let's say you own your contract outright and all you owe are the yearly dues. What happens if you don't pay? Ever? Is this something Disney will come after you to get or can you just hand the contract back and say 'nevermind'?
    They put a lien on your Deed. If you don’t pay that they get a judgement and foreclose.
     

    KAT4DISNEY

    Glad to be a test subject
    Joined
    Mar 17, 2008
    They put a lien on your Deed. If you don’t pay that they get a judgement and foreclose.
    And before the lien they will freeze your account - no reservations can be made and I believe they would cancel any existing if you did not respond to the amount due in the time allotted.
     

    _auroraborealis_

    I like marshmallows. And adult beverages.
    Joined
    Oct 18, 2015
    I read a section in the 2016 multi site POS that I didn't recall seeing before - how rentals could be ended. But then they admit in the next sentence that they rent and go on with the warning to not buy to rent because you'll be competing with DVC renting and WDW hotels and so may not be competitive enough in the rentals etc etc.
    Yeah, that passage is kinda hilarious, honestly. "You're in competition with us and you will find it SO HAAARD to rent! WE SWEAR!"

    You should not purchase an Ownership Interest with any expectation that that you will be able to rent, sell or refinance any Ownership Interest. As a practical matter, resale of an Ownership Interest or rental of a reserved Vacation Homes will be difficult given certain restrictions and other factors affecting resale, refinancing or rental. One such factor is the competition for sales and rentals that you will face from the sales and rental of unsold inventory by DVD and the sales and rental activities of The TWDC Companies with respect to unrelated properties around each DVC Resort. No rental assistance is being offered by DVD, DVCMC, BVTC or any of the TWDC Companies. This means that if you wish to rent an Ownership Interest, you must rent your occupancy rights solely through your own efforts. As stated above, The TWDC Companies, including, without limitation, DVD, will be in competition with you for renters, and DVD will place its own inventory of Ownership Interests into a rental program of its own. All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and you will be responsible for the acts or omissions of your renters or any other person or persons you permit to use your reserved Vacation Home.​
     

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