The direct points shaming factor here

[Ben E N]

I don't understand the bolded language...

One difference - I've been on internet forums that were primarily support forums and others that were advice based (Dis and some travel related ones). @pineapplepalms took the words right out of my fingertips. The "Purchasing DVC" board is primarily advice based, and gives so much better advice than the DVC groups on FB. And the group here is generally quite cordial and full of great information. There is no way we would have bought DVC (either direct or resale) without the great advice here. My parents have owned various RCI and other timeshares over the last 40 years. I grew up with them, staying in them, and seeing up front the difficulties with owning them. We ultimately decided to let the timeshare company take back one of them because my mom hadn't paid maintenance fees on it for a while (she has dementia), and it would have cost more for us to pay the back fees and sell it than to just let it go. My first hand experience over 40 years led me to decide that for my style of vacationing, a timeshare of any kind probably didn't make sense, and only with little kids going to WDW frequently does DVC make sense. And even then, in 10 years we may not be going that often. The difference is that most likely in 10 years we could sell our contract fairly readily for a decent price.

By the way, @Dean never used the words "Timeshares are a fools buy." Also, there is lots of discussion here on when/where/at what price point does buying direct actually make sense. If I loved Poly, I might consider it now. (We've never stayed there).

I have to jump on and see that I agree with this. The things that Dean and others are saying may not be what others want to hear, but it is certainly not shaming. The name of this forum is "purchasing DVC", so the majority of the discussion here should be about whether purchasing is the right choice or not, and what prices can and should be for different resorts. While there are differing emotional factors involved for each individual purchaser, the one thing we all have in common is how much we can and do spend on these contracts. If someone wants to point out that a better price can be found via resale, or just renting once every five years, they are just pointing out the useful financials of those choices.
I understand both where Dean and other posters have come in with the car lease example. Looking purely from a numbers standpoint, leasing is a worse financial decision vs. purchasing. You continue to pay in perpetuity with leasing vs. having payments end after 5 years if you finance a car (buying a used car with cash is even better). I brought this point up to a friend of mine who was recently divorced with two young children, and she let me know that she had more concerns than just financial. She needed to lease a car because the maintenance was minimal and she did not have to worry about things like the tires on her car needing to be replaced when she had two kids to worry about it. Good points on her behalf. Even though it may have not been best for her wallet, for her needs, leasing was the way to go. These DVC purchases can go the same way. Some people may really want to be in a specific resort, or may need to close quickly, or whatever reason they may have, and that is ok. They should be comfortable knowing that these reasons outweigh the higher price that they are paying, and be comfortable with people posting and pointing out that they could have paid less by going a different route.

 

[Dean]

Just on the car lease issue they can be very good financially. At least here in UK. My last one was a Mercedes CLS, $70000 to buy here, got it for $430 a month over 2 years, 2 payments down! It would have lost much more in depreciation. Currently got a BMW 335D , nearly fast as a Porsche 911 and it's a 'wagon' as you call them- $500 a month, 2 payments down. I used to buy cars, no more, anyway, sorry I digress but there is a point to my (true) post... I'm happy to argue points out with facts and figures when people offer opinions on public forums; Was I offended by Deans' comments which indicated leasing is not financially savvy ? No.

Can't speak to the UK but for the US it pushes you to a new car at full price plus an inherent "interest" of 8-14% plus it adds other risk. So if buying a new vehicle under those terms without it being a lease is a good choice, so is leasing and vice versa. The lease also adds additional risk. In addition it often pushes people to buy something they couldn't afford without the lease.

 

[Dean]

But again, what's the criteria? Why go through life without any luxury items just because it is someone else's standard that you should never finance those items? We had the cash savings to buy, but we don't take money out of savings unless it's for an emergency. So we financed, got our DVC right away, shifted the money we were using to to go to WDW hotels into paying off the loan, and let our savings stay put and grow.

Down the road, when we started a family and went to one of us working half-time, we were REALLY happy to have made this decision. By then our DVC was paid off, and we were able to vacation well above what we would have felt comfortable spending on hotel rooms. AND we were able to take friends and family with us.

For us, it just felt like win-win-win.

Everyone's situation is different so I want to concentrate on the underlying principles. I can only speak to my criteria and principles and they include the following related to buying DVC but expandable to life in general, esp other luxury purchases.

• If you can't save up and pay cash within around 2 years, you either can't afford it or it isn't important to you.
• Buying DVC needs to net a real savings or a real monetary plus related to increased value compared to what one would have spent or as a minimum, renting DVC. Comparing to DVC rack rates, even discounted, makes no sense unless that would have been the cash choice.
• Keep it easy and simple, don't buy SSR & expect to get AKV value routinely as an example. Don't rush in and buy the wrong UY or wrong home resort. Any potential savings lost by waiting a trip or 2 will be compounded dramatically if one makes a poor choice by buying when they shouldn't or the wrong home resort or UY. Don't buy trying to routinely use at under 6-7 months out.
• Long term value is the goal over short term savings hence the recommendation to not rush into this.
• Vacation, in general, is a luxury and not a right. I don't believe in mortgaging the future for today's "memories".
• No matter what the calculator says, DVC will not save you money. Whether it will truly add value depends.
• A timeshare adds risk to life, even more so if financed. Of course even paying cash with other debt is the same as financing it.

The closer one is to these principles the better off they will be when it comes to possibly buying DVC and the further they are away the worse off they will be. But straying too far and saying it worked out is much like a smoker who doesn't get lung cancer, sometimes you get lucky. I know many see these as downers but they really shouldn't because if DVC is appropriate, reasonable and meant to be; you can have it all with minimal delay and be in a much better place.

 

[ziravan]

This forum was invaluable to me when I was researching DVC. I distinctly remember asking some of the questions I see asked frequently.

I bought my first resale (BCV) after the 2011 restrictions and before the 2016 restrictions, based largely on research from this forum. This forum allayed my concerns about the 2011 restrictions.

And I bought my Poly Direct contract after having a full understanding of what I was doing.

I would say that, as a general rule, buying resale is far better than direct for any timeshare. That includes DVC. There are exceptions to the rule and I think the residual value of DVC contracts creates more exceptions for DVC than most timeshares.

But. I think if you're gonna come to a "Purchasing DVC" forum and argue that buying direct is a good buy, you're gonna get some pushback. It might be, but that's an exception and not the rule.

We want to make sure that you (and other, passive readers) understand the rule so that you can appreciate the exceptions. Not because we're internet bossies. Because we want you to enjoy your purchase both now and when you do learn/understand the rule.

There's nothing worse than finding out that you made a $20 thousand dollar mistake and it's too late to bail. Thankfully that doesn't happen often with DVC because DVC retains value. But it's especially true with timeshares, Buyer Beware.

If you come to us for information, don't be surprised if 'Buyer Beware' is out there front and center. It's the Guides' job to sugar coat it. We're gonna tell you what's actually underneath the sugar.

 

[WBogley]

I think the important thing about dvc is the product is really about spending money now to save money later. It is diffent from cars and houses cause there is really not a hard asset. Since the whole objective of the program is to save money, why would anyone willingly over pay upfront through Disney. We should ask all the direct buyer people that are selling, are they happy they paid top dollar to buy from Disney and then later sell for 40 percent less?

 

[Dean]

I think the important thing about dvc is the product is really about spending money now to save money later. It is diffent from cars and houses cause there is really not a hard asset. Since the whole objective of the program is to save money, why would anyone willingly over pay upfront through Disney. We should ask all the direct buyer people that are selling, are they happy they paid top dollar to buy from Disney and then later sell for 40 percent less?

There's no doubt that the system exists because of direct buyers, that's true for any timeshare system whether it's worth pennies on the dollar the day after you buy it or just 70% like DVC. And that will continue to be the case including for any new resort. There certainly are situations where buying retail is reasonable though it's a small % of those that do even from here (ignoring the 25 pt add on issue).

 

[Matty B13]

The nice thing about DVC, at least currently, that you have a good chance of getting your money back in full not necessarily just 40% less. The first 2 contracts (I'm guessing) were sold by owners who were in over their heads, but I bought one contract for the price one owner paid, and the other owner pretty close to what they paid. I think this is the main difference between DVC and most timeshares.

 

[wdw4rfam]

I suggest that you look at some of the current asking prices for resale. People are asking for and getting $100 or more per point for OKW and SSR. AKV is usually over $100. BCV, GFV, and CRV go for $140 pp and up. I've seen some POLY listings lately for as much as $150 pp. I would pay the direct price for BCV, GFV, CRV, and POLY before paying this much for the resale contracts.

Yes, on the other hand I bought OKW extended for $68 per point back in November last year. Then added direct. Must have really increased in the last year. If these keep climbing then I agree with you. I'd never pay over $100 per point for OKW.

 

[Dean1953]

I also have no doubt that people buy direct to not have to hassle with resale. We are just now going through estoppel and if I had the extra money, I would have paid more to not go through that. I also have to think DVD took our first ROFR to get us to come back to buying direct. We had a timeline that we will not meet now to get what we want on our first trip. We started at end of May with looking for what we want and are still not done. Much easier to just tell Disney what you want.

I'm buying resale (in estoppel now) and if Disney took the contract through ROFR, and if ot Disney. I truly believed that they did it to get me to buy direct, it would have the opposite effect. I'd like to own a certain amount of points in the 75 point range, in order to stay a couple of days before my timeshare week off site starts. If that didn't happen, I'd just stay at the timeshare and not Disney. I did call my Disney agent while in ROFR and told her that I was buying resale and would be interested in a 25 point contract after the sale went through. She told me to call back once I owned the resale contract. The contract passed through ROFR. In fact, she said she and other agents had nothing to do with the group that makes the decision on ROFR. I don't think that the group makes its decision on the buyers shown desire to buy DVC in the past.

 

[CraigInPA]

As others have stated, generally, resale is going to save you money. However, based upon the recent trends in resale pricing, that "rule" isn't accurate for most smaller contracts.

For example, there's a recent $170 per point, 50 point BLT contract listed for sale. Based upon the closing costs alone, the actual price difference between buying direct and buying this resale is just $2 more for direct, and direct will come with all the current year points, making it actually cheaper than buying the resale contract (if you rent those points). In many other cases, the spread between the price per point including closing costs retail and resale is $5 or $10 for small contracts, making the decision to go retail a "no brainer", especially given the current discounts on annual passes.

 

[kboo]

The nice thing about DVC, at least currently, that you have a good chance of getting your money back in full not necessarily just 40% less. The first 2 contracts (I'm guessing) were sold by owners who were in over their heads, but I bought one contract for the price one owner paid, and the other owner pretty close to what they paid. I think this is the main difference between DVC and most timeshares.

Agreed! I saw our sellers were FL residents who had bought AKL and BLT direct. I don't know why, but I got the sense they were older. I think they paid a few $ over what we paid, but used them for 8 years. So essentially they lost the time value of the $ cost of the contracts, plus MFs, to pay for their contracts? (For some reason I am picturing FL-based grandparents who got these contracts to enjoy wdw with their grandkids, but this may be a fairy tale I constructed in my mind).

I'm buying resale (in estoppel now) and if Disney took the contract through ROFR, and if ot Disney. I truly believed that they did it to get me to buy direct, it would have the opposite effect. I'd like to own a certain amount of points in the 75 point range, in order to stay a couple of days before my timeshare week off site starts. If that didn't happen, I'd just stay at the timeshare and not Disney. I did call my Disney agent while in ROFR and told her that I was buying resale and would be interested in a 25 point contract after the sale went through. She told me to call back once I owned the resale contract. The contract passed through ROFR. In fact, she said she and other agents had nothing to do with the group that makes the decision on ROFR. I don't think that the group makes its decision on the buyers shown desire to buy DVC in the past.

I do think that one's experience with resale and ROFR can cause one to sour on the whole process. We got lucky with our first time purchase - We were in contract hours after making an offer (at a price that was $1 per point above our initial offer), ROFR took 9 days (!), we paid cash, and the sellers did all the stuff on their end right away as well. I couldn't have asked for a smoother or easier process. At the same time, I have seen buyers here get ROFR'ed 3x over on contracts that were virtually identical to ones that were passing at the same time, or new buyers dealing with international or nonresponsive sellers, or snafus over paperwork. I can see that going through a tough process might make buying direct seem more worth it, especially with resale prices so high now. We saved almost $13,000 on the price of the contract alone, making the closing costs, etc. a rounding error. Our purchase went quickly for a resale (and we didn't have imminent plans for the points), so *for me* the money saved was far greater value to me than the time saved going direct (about 5 weeks, if one assumes DVD had 160 BLT points in the UY handy).

We are now considering buying a 2d contract with a different home resort and UY to start using in summer 2019 (yep, I'm a planner). And even if our attempted resale purchase gets ROFR'ed a few times, we will be fine, because we will either skip 2019 altogether (saves money) or just use our BLT points instead of banking them (more likely).

 

[kboo]

As others have stated, generally, resale is going to save you money. However, based upon the recent trends in resale pricing, that "rule" isn't accurate for most smaller contracts.

For example, there's a recent $170 per point, 50 point BLT contract listed for sale. Based upon the closing costs alone, the actual price difference between buying direct and buying this resale is just $2 more for direct, and direct will come with all the current year points, making it actually cheaper than buying the resale contract (if you rent those points). In many other cases, the spread between the price per point including closing costs retail and resale is $5 or $10 for small contracts, making the decision to go retail a "no brainer", especially given the current discounts on annual passes.

That is just crazy.

With our contract, the $13000 saved could have been used for some pretty deluxe, full price cash reservations at a disney hotel, for those who feel like there's a cost to the delay of going resale.

But at $170 pp 50 points BLT, I may as well go direct.

Other places where the spread between asking resale price and direct (assuming you can get it) is small enough that it may be worth going direct: VGC, VGF, Poly, CCV, BCV...

 

[Deb & Bill]

As others have stated, generally, resale is going to save you money. However, based upon the recent trends in resale pricing, that "rule" isn't accurate for most smaller contracts.

For example, there's a recent $170 per point, 50 point BLT contract listed for sale. Based upon the closing costs alone, the actual price difference between buying direct and buying this resale is just $2 more for direct, and direct will come with all the current year points, making it actually cheaper than buying the resale contract (if you rent those points). In many other cases, the spread between the price per point including closing costs retail and resale is $5 or $10 for small contracts, making the decision to go retail a "no brainer", especially given the current discounts on annual passes.

There are always exceptions to the rule.

 

[Dean]

There are always exceptions to the rule.

Agreed, just like using points for DCL, look at the specifics. But do so with real information, don’t box yourself in. The first question is whether buying at all makes sense and at a significantly higher price, the % of people it will make sense for either related to savings or being able to afford it, will be significantly smaller.

 

[Matty B13]

Trying to buy direct isn't always going to provide instant gratification, the 2 times we called our guide about buying direct at VGF we were put on a shorta-waitlist and it took over 1-1/2 months for them to come up with the points, which is only about 1/2 the time resale is taking nowadays. The direct process is very quick, but DVC might now have your points just sitting around. We saved over $11,000.00 on our 2 resale contracts, so I think the wait for a resale contract is well worth it.