The biggest owner question that is not given enough thought: future of maintenance fees...

[Pluto777]

Hey folks, just throwing this out there but while some properties are more obviously susceptible to M.F. increases (beachfront resorts for example), what about the resorts INSIDE WDW? I asked this years ago and there was some speculation, but now in 2024 we have a lot more data even on some of the newer resorts (PVB, GFV etc). The question is of all the certain types of construction on the WDW property say towers (BLT) vs bungalows (PVB) or larger type buildings (GFV, BWV, BCV, BRV, CCR, AKV) vs spread out type buildings (OKW, SSR), which is the best AND worst in terms of M.F. increases over the long term (5-10 + years)?

I would love to know if anyone out there (and I am thinking of some of the big number crunchers out there on this board fam - you know who you are ; ) has analyzed the past M.F. increases based on this and thus can project most accurately what likely increases will be in the future based on this factor. IMO, this is critical to determining best value but is so often overlooked.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I had this question regarding AUL recently and was given this website to look at. It has a lot of great info in regards to the history of increases. Let me know what you think. https://www.dvchelp.com/page/maintenance-fees-current-and-historical

 

[OKW Lover]

Yes, we can track historical MF's for all the properties. Does that mean they will continue the same trend for the future? I prefer to assume MF will generally follow the rate of inflation.

 

[Sandisw]

I am one who went in to buying DVC with simple math, assuming that MFs would rise in a similar fashion to the rise in cash rates.

We bought where we wanted to stay and the cost of MFs came with it. So, for us, we don’t worry or even try to figure it out because we do believe that DVC is still a much better deal than staying on cash.

 

[disneyfan123]

I assume the rates will be similar to inflation, with some years being higher increases, and others a bit lower, depending on the circumstances of the individual resort. I figure it will still be cheaper than the price increase of even discounted hotel rates, or point rentals.

A major reason we bought in was because the point rental costs went up a lot (in my mind at least) and I would rather spend the money on dues for myself, than paying to cover someone else's.

Worst case scenario I have to rent some points out to help cover costs, or even sell a contract (or all of them, although my VGF will probably have to be taken from my cold dead hands). I'm ok with all of these possibilities; in the 3 years we have been owners, we have had amazing trips to WDW and Aulani, so I fell I've already got my money's worth.

 

[Pluto777]

Thanks for all the input folks. Keep in mind, my question specifically was HOW DOES TYPE OF RESORT CONSTRUCTION effect the future M.F.'s (not just inflation, room costs etc.)? In other words is a spread out type resort like SSR more or LESS efficient that one that is more compact like say a GFV?

 

[VGCgroupie]

Thanks for all the input folks. Keep in mind, my question specifically was HOW DOES TYPE OF RESORT CONSTRUCTION effect the future M.F.'s (not just inflation, room costs etc.)? In other words is a spread out type resort like SSR more or LESS efficient that one that is more compact like say a GFV?

This post has some good info. https://www.disboards.com/threads/i...the-site-i-look-at-most.3949748/post-65607791

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks for all the input folks. Keep in mind, my question specifically was HOW DOES TYPE OF RESORT CONSTRUCTION effect the future M.F.'s (not just inflation, room costs etc.)? In other words is a spread out type resort like SSR more or LESS efficient that one that is more compact like say a GFV?

One thing to consider then those in a location with a hotel location vs DVC only.

Someplace like RIV is all DVC so it’s operating costs will always be in complete control of owners.

Someplace like VGF has shared expenses that are in the control of the hotel. So, in those cases, there are potential expenses that will be shared and owners would have the same level of say.

 

[CastAStone]

Thanks for all the input folks. Keep in mind, my question specifically was HOW DOES TYPE OF RESORT CONSTRUCTION effect the future M.F.'s (not just inflation, room costs etc.)? In other words is a spread out type resort like SSR more or LESS efficient that one that is more compact like say a GFV?

I don’t think we can know. The drivers of the cost increases have changed so much over the years, some years it’s been labor, some it’s been refurbished cost increases, some it’s been landscaping costs, etc.

I wonder if the people here involved in the construction industry aren’t better equipped to answer than us number nerds.

 

[CastAStone]

One thing to consider then those in a location with a hotel location vs DVC only.

Someplace like RIV is all DVC so it’s operating costs will always be in complete control of owners.

Someplace like VGF has shared expenses that are in the control of the hotel. So, in those cases, there are potential expenses that will be shared and owners would have the same level of say.

Another thought this popped into my head is that if DVC owners attached to transportation are on the hook for a portion of the refurbishment costs for that transportation (are they?), there’s risk there that those costs could increase significantly one day.

 

[VGCgroupie]

One thing to consider then those in a location with a hotel location vs DVC only.

Someplace like RIV is all DVC so it’s operating costs will always be in complete control of owners.

Someplace like VGF has shared expenses that are in the control of the hotel. So, in those cases, there are potential expenses that will be shared and owners would have the same level of say.

This is a good point I haven’t seen brought up before in my searching posts.

 

[Sandisw]

Another thought this popped into my head is that if DVC owners attached to transportation are on the hook for a portion of the refurbishment costs for that transportation (are they?), there’s risk there that those costs could increase significantly one day.

My understanding is that costs for transportation would be part of something that owners, since we do have the use of them, are on the hook to cover in a shared way.

So, for RIv, it’s the Skyliner and buses…for MK it’s monorail, boats and buses.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I prefer to assume MF will generally follow the rate of inflation.

Maintenance fees have historically outpaced inflation. It’s why buying something like CFW, or Vero Beach, or HHI is a very dicey proposition.

 

[Anthony1971]

There were threads like this YEARS ago always an ongoing topic time to time.
A lot felt SSR dues would remain low because some of the structures existed already, and all were solid block (concreate) construction.
Did not work out that way......
What you may be seeing is a new resort taking an adjustment for underestimated dues or maybe some builders credits.

It is very difficult to predict in other words based on anything you can think of.

What is known is your dues will far outweigh the buy in cost through the years. In roughly 20 years dues will double. Give or take a year in the end if you can't stomach paying 16+ a point in 20 years I would not buy... Not in a nasty way but this is a very overlooked cost.

 

[Great3]

It's hard to say, because OKW was fairly cheap MF dues wise, until over a couple of years recently, it just jumped much more higher percentagewise compare to all the other DVC resorts, so that one of the most expensive WDW resort in terms of MF dues now.

There were many that predicted OKW MF dues would stay lower, but it didn't, it's even higher than AUL now.

Great3

 

[Memorymakerfor4]

Thanks for all the input folks. Keep in mind, my question specifically was HOW DOES TYPE OF RESORT CONSTRUCTION effect the future M.F.'s (not just inflation, room costs etc.)? In other words is a spread out type resort like SSR more or LESS efficient that one that is more compact like say a GFV?

If forced to make a prediction, I've always felt like BLT will be the big winner on maintenance fees in the end, due to the resort having such a small footprint, along with shared facilities with the Contemporary. The only thing I wonder about there is the monorail and how Disney will handle that as it continues to age.

 

[BamaGuy44]

I'm not going to spend too much mental energy on it personally, since it depends on many factors that would be impossible for us to know or predict. Nobody predicted the crazy high MF for CFW, for example. Riviera was one of the highest when it opened, and most predicted it would outpace other resorts because of the skyliner, etc. But only a few years later it's basically average for WDW resorts.

I certainly wouldn't trust my or someone else's predictions enough to factor into any buying decisions

 

[OKW Lover]

Someplace like RIV is all DVC so it’s operating costs will always be in complete control of owners.

Keep in mind that the owners actually have very little they can do to control the costs. It's Disney (be it DVC, DVD or some other part of the organization) that controls the cost of the resort. We just get to pay for it.

Another thought this popped into my head is that if DVC owners attached to transportation are on the hook for a portion of the refurbishment costs for that transportation (are they?), there’s risk there that those costs could increase significantly one day.

Yes, DVC owners pay for transportation costs. Costs are allocated to owners based on factors such as percentage of guests that are DVC vs paying customers. For example, Boardwalk transportation would be split between those staying at the hotel side (Boardwalk Inn) and those staying at the DVC side based on the theoretical room capacity of each.

My understanding is that costs for transportation would be part of something that owners, since we do have the use of them, are on the hook to cover in a shared way.

So, for RIv, it’s the Skyliner and buses…for MK it’s monorail, boats and buses.

That's correct.

It's hard to say, because OKW was fairly cheap MF dues wise, until over a couple of years recently, it just jumped much more higher percentagewise compare to all the other DVC resorts, so that one of the most expensive WDW resort in terms of MF dues now.

Of course OKW is the oldest property so it is probably reaching the point that it needs more work to maintain it. Some time I'll have to dig into the MF accounting for that resort to see if there is a particular driver.

 

[Sandisw]

Keep in mind that the owners actually have very little they can do to control the costs. It's Disney (be it DVC, DVD or some other part of the organization) that controls the cost of the resort. We just get to pay for it.

Yes, DVC owners pay for transportation costs. Costs are allocated to owners based on factors such as percentage of guests that are DVC vs paying customers. For example, Boardwalk transportation would be split between those staying at the hotel side (Boardwalk Inn) and those staying at the DVC side based on the theoretical room capacity of each.

That's correct.

Of course OKW is the oldest property so it is probably reaching the point that it needs more work to maintain it. Some time I'll have to dig into the MF accounting for that resort to see if there is a particular driver.

I agree we owners don’t get a vote on expenses but we don’t have to share in expenses in a same way as when the hotel division decides to make enhancements that isn’t meant for DVC specifically.

To me, that is a big difference in potential ways dues can go up faster at one place than the other.

 

[AwfulWaffle]

I feel Cabin fever!