Teachers are giving me a hard time pulling kids out of school

[Scurvy]

well, I, for one, know the job is not easy. And yes, I understand they work more hours than people may realize....but my point is...they work more hours for those nine months and then the ones who are off for the summer are just that, off ..when as other professions are still working and also putting in extra hours on the job.

I haven't ever known a teacher who didn't work over the summer - going to in-service or other required meetings, moving their stuff to a different classroom and decorating, starting on lesson plans, etc. I'm not saying there aren't teachers who leave on the last day of school and show back up at the end of summer without doing any work over the summer, but I don't think that's the norm at all. And that's fine, because teachers know that's an expected part of the job - but it can be a little annoying when the rest of the world thinks that summers are all fun and fancy free for teachers. That just isn't the case most of the time. Of course they do have way more time free over the summer than they do during the year - which is one of the big benefits of being a teacher, and often is a factor in people choosing that as their job.

Bit in a way, this thread is about other professions - all those other professions that get in the way of vacationing on the kids' schedule. The reason teachers get negative remarks is because so many teachers complain about things that are just a given in other professions - long hours, cuts in benefits, difficult working conditions, etc.

It is hard to muster up sympathy for a teacher who has to go to all the terrible trouble of getting a packet together for a vacationing child when you, as the parent of that child, are working the same hours for less pay, trying to figure out how to pay for a 20% increase in insurance premiums, and having to deal with all sorts of hassle from teachers/schools if you dare to take a vacation with your children at the times your employer permits.

The thing is that the only reason that teachers started complaining in this thread is because some parents pointed out how easy teachers have it as part of the argument that teachers ought to be willing to do extra work to compensate for their vacations. Teachers didn't storm the thread to moan and complain about their jobs, or to say that they have it worse than other people. They just tried to point out that they don't have it as easy as many people believe, and so what seems to you to be a little bit of extra work on your behalf might actually be the straw that breaks the camel's back for the teacher.

Your second paragraph is a prime example of the attitude that bothers teachers so much. You don't have to muster up sympathy for the teacher who chooses to do you the favor of adding to an already busy workload so that you can go on vacation when you choose to, but then it seems quite unreasonable for you to expect them to muster up sympathy for you when you "have to" pull your child out of school for a voluntary family vacation.

Teachers chose their profession and they stick with it knowing the hours and pay involved. They accept the requirements of the job - but that doesn't mean they have to be willing to spend extra time working so you can go on a trip. If you are working the same hours for less pay, trying to figure out how to pay for a 20% increase in insurance premiums, that's your choice. It doesn't make you entitled to some of the teacher's free time. It wouldn't matter if teachers were paid millions of dollars and worked 2 months of the year while you worked 60 hour weeks for peanuts - you still wouldn't be entitled to expect that the teacher donate some of their free time in order to make your vacation possible.

Teachers are required to work within the rules of their school district. If that means giving your child make-up work after a trip then that's what they have to do. If it means they tell your child to find a homework buddy to get the assignments from during the trip so they can turn it in on the day the child returns then that's what they will do. If a teacher chooses to go "above and beyond" and spend extra time compensating for the time your child misses while on your family vacation then you should be thankful for that. . . but to look at it as something you are entitled to because teachers have better jobs than you (and to let the teacher pick up on that attitude) is the sure way to make sure that teachers never want to go out of their way to help you again.
(The "you" here is intended as a general "you", and does not refer to any specific poster on this thread.)

 

[golfgal]

That is STILL how it is in our district.

Which means that you don't have an attendance problem in your schools. We don't have attendance problems either so we don't have a super strict policy. I have been in districts that attendance WAS a HUGE problem-upper middle class town where parents though it was ok to take kids out of school to go shopping, get their hair done, tanning appointments, etc. Some kids would miss school weekly for things like this so the school finally had to put their foot down and kids were only allowed 7 unexcused absences/year and they were pretty clear on what was considered unexcused.

They made exceptions on a case by case basis-one student qualified for the para-Olympics and was going to miss 3 weeks-he got an exception since everyone felt that spending 3 weeks in Sydney with people from all over the world was a good reason. One family wanted to take their kids on a vacation for 2 weeks, they were denied. Consequences were an automatic failure of any class you missed more then 7 times unexcused. There were a few kids that ended up not graduating because they had too many absences.

 

[jodifla]

Which means that you don't have an attendance problem in your schools. We don't have attendance problems either so we don't have a super strict policy. I have been in districts that attendance WAS a HUGE problem-upper middle class town where parents though it was ok to take kids out of school to go shopping, get their hair done, tanning appointments, etc. Some kids would miss school weekly for things like this so the school finally had to put their foot down and kids were only allowed 7 unexcused absences/year and they were pretty clear on what was considered unexcused.

They made exceptions on a case by case basis-one student qualified for the para-Olympics and was going to miss 3 weeks-he got an exception since everyone felt that spending 3 weeks in Sydney with people from all over the world was a good reason. One family wanted to take their kids on a vacation for 2 weeks, they were denied. Consequences were an automatic failure of any class you missed more then 7 times unexcused. There were a few kids that ended up not graduating because they had too many absences.

And even this policy is WAY more reasonable than so many others we see on these boards.

 

[MaumeeMom]

I realize that, but teachers who choose not to work summer school DO in fact only work the school year correct? So while it may sicken you when people say that, it is true for many teachers.

Unfortunately, some teachers don't have a choice because some school districts have had to cut summer school to control the budgets.

PARTIAL
How many teachers do you know who are dealing with annual double digit increases to their health care premiums? Or layoff days so that they're expected to get 5 days' work done in 4 days' time and with 4 days' pay? Or get a pink slip on Friday telling them they don't have a job Monday? It isn't a cakewalk - no job is - but teachers do have it pretty good in comparison to much of the rest of the workforce.

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out already, teachers are not immune to the downsizing. Class sizes are increasing in order to cut the number of teachers, schools are shuttering for a few days furloughing teachers and support staff. In this economy, no one is safe and I do not believe teachers have it any better than anyone else.

PARTIAL
If the case of a vacation during school time, you know that there may be consequences as well. Go ahead and take the child out but know that until the rules change grades may be affected. In either case the responsibility lies with the family, not the teacher.

Your whole post was well done, especially this part.

But for whatever reason that is not the way it is today in many school systems. That was how it was when my kids attended school. As parents we all must decide if we are comfortable with the standards and the rules in place in the schools our children attend and then decide if we want our kids to attend those schools, attend private schools or home school. Or we can challenge the rules and hope that if we make changes those changes benefit the majority of children in the school system. It is counterproductive to diminish the teaching profession in every thread where there are specific issues that have nothing to do with the teacher but with the policies in place in the district.

Exactly!!

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

I haven't ever known a teacher who didn't work over the summer - going to in-service or other required meetings, moving their stuff to a different classroom and decorating, starting on lesson plans, etc.

Five days a week, 7 AM - 5:30 PM, throughout the summer? That's what my DH works. Obviously, he's NOT a teacher. I used to spend a week in the summer in a ski area of Vermont where the houses were rented out for the summer, and there was a couple from NY who went every year...both teachers...who rented for two months. Nice life, if you can do it.

I remember hearing about a study years ago, where people, given a choice, would choose more time in their lives over more money; perhaps that would be different now, the economy being what it is.

Of course they do have way more time free over the summer than they do during the year - which is one of the big benefits of being a teacher, and often is a factor in people choosing that as their job.

Of course.

Having said that, I have tremendous respect for a lot (not all) of the teachers my 3 kids have had over the years. Going to Open House and Parent/Teacher conferences is like reunions with some of my favorite people. I don't expect my kids' teachers to babysit for them...I expect my kids (2 of 3 now in college) to be respectful and responsible and INDEPENDENT students, which is why their teachers were willing to cut them a break (even ignore school system policy a bit, ie, they weren't supposed to give them schoolwork ahead of time) when we DID take them out of school for vacation. They didn't have to do much to get my kids back on track...my kids went to classmates for assignments as much as possible. Still, it got way too complicated with classes like Science Honors, requiring labs.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Five days a week, 7 AM - 5:30 PM, throughout the summer? That's what my DH works.

Oh...and extra time...staying late or going in on a Saturday or Sunday...before and after vacations to get everything done, as well as taking phone calls when something comes up while away.

 

[Scurvy]

Five days a week, 7 AM - 5:30 PM, throughout the summer? That's what my DH works. Obviously, he's NOT a teacher. I used to spend a week in the summer in a ski area of Vermont where the houses were rented out for the summer, and there was a couple from NY who went every year...both teachers...who rented for two months. Nice life, if you can do it..

Of course not, but I acknowledged that later in that same post. Nor are they paid to work those hours during the summer. I hope your husband is paid to work during the summer - that's an awful lot of time to be donating to his job, otherwise.

I remember hearing about a study years ago, where people, given a choice, would choose more time in their lives over more money; perhaps that would be different now, the economy being what it is. Of course.

Having said that, I have tremendous respect for a lot (not all) of the teachers my 3 kids have had over the years. Going to Open House and Parent/Teacher conferences is like reunions with some of my favorite people. I don't expect my kids' teachers to babysit for them...I expect my kids (2 of 3 now in college) to be respectful and responsible and INDEPENDENT students, which is why their teachers were willing to cut them a break (even ignore school system policy a bit, ie, they weren't supposed to give them schoolwork ahead of time) when we DID take them out of school for vacation. They didn't have to do much to get my kids back on track...my kids went to classmates for assignments as much as possible. Still, it got way too complicated with classes like Science Honors, requiring labs.

Oh...and extra time...staying late or going in on a Saturday or Sunday...before and after vacations to get everything done, as well as taking phone calls when something comes up while away.

Oh, I know there are jobs that have much worse hours than those of teachers. My husband, for example, has worked 7 days a week, from 6:00 AM until at least 6:00 or 7:00 PM, with daily telecons at 10:00 at night, since July with very few breaks. His hours have been much worse than most teacher's hours, but that doesn't give him the right to expect our son's teachers to donate their extra time to make our vacations possible. That is the point I've been trying to make.

The post that you quoted was in response to someone who seemed to be under the impression that teachers (who are not compensated for working at all over the summer) walk out the door on the last day of school and walk back in at the beginning of the next school year and don't do a bit of work in the interim. Some people seem to feel that because teachers have more free time than some other jobs they "owe" some of that time to those who have worse hours. I think that's ridiculous. And when that expectation is justified by people who talk about all the "time off" that teachers have, I feel the need to point out that teachers don't have it as easy as many people seem to think. Of course it wouldn't matter if they did have it that easy - you still wouldn't be entitled to one minute of their free time. The fact that some teachers are willing to spend extra time helping people seems to have made some people come to expect that, and I think that is completely unreasonable.

 

[HelenePA]

What will you do if your child is sick and ends up missing more than 5 days? Or is it that you are allowed to miss 5 days for each vacation that you want to take?

It's also important to remember that your child will be missing more than the worksheet. They will miss classroom discussions, instructions, reading...many of these will be impossible to make up.

Its 5 vacation days total per school year. Along with sick days 10 excused with out a dr's note after the 10 days you must have a dr's note for each one after that or you get a fine. I know they will miss more than just reading and work sheets I've never taken them out for vacation before. I would just like to go for Halloween next year. Like I said its allowed by my school. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to do it with out having them fail because of it.. I need to look and see if there are any inservice days in Oct maybe I can get away with only missing 4..

 

[Colleen27]

Which means that you don't have an attendance problem in your schools. We don't have attendance problems either so we don't have a super strict policy. I have been in districts that attendance WAS a HUGE problem-upper middle class town where parents though it was ok to take kids out of school to go shopping, get their hair done, tanning appointments, etc. Some kids would miss school weekly for things like this so the school finally had to put their foot down and kids were only allowed 7 unexcused absences/year and they were pretty clear on what was considered unexcused.

But many policies didn't stem from a specific problem. Like TX, where it is state law that kids can't miss school for family vacations. I'm sure there were/are plenty of schools in TX that had no problem with attendance, but some bureaucrat somewhere decided that strict attendance rules statewide would be the way to fix something that was broken in some problem areas.

Or for a more localized example, you have a school like the one where I came up. After a minor scandal about a lack of black employees, they hired a black principal at the high school who had worked his entire 20+ year career in some of Detroit's worst schools. He didn't adapt well to working under suburban conditions - he brought with him the strict attendance policy, dress code, backpack rules, etc. that were absolutely necessary in the drug-and gang-infested areas where he'd worked before but which were ridiculous overkill for a middle class suburban high school that had none of those issues.

 

[Colleen27]

Teachers chose their profession and they stick with it knowing the hours and pay involved. They accept the requirements of the job - but that doesn't mean they have to be willing to spend extra time working so you can go on a trip.

Teachers are required to work within the rules of their school district. If that means giving your child make-up work after a trip then that's what they have to do.

Except that over and over again, even when the district requires it, compiling make up work is being defined as "above and beyond", even to the point where a few posters have defended teachers who went out of their way to punish vacationing students who were acting within district policy.

 

[creativeamanda]

And here's another flip side the the vacation scenerio: due to budget cuts, school districts are now not taking children on field trips. As a response, two years ago, I took my dd who was in 3rd grade to Columbia, SC, to the State House to see the Legislature in session. It was an unexcused absence. In 3rd grade across the US, students learn state histroy. How was it unexcused for my husband and myself to take education into our own hands and teach them?

It's all becoming ridiculous. So much so, that I am contemplating quitting work, selling our second car, and homeschooling. And dh and I work in the school systems: him in a classroom 7:30-4:00 and me in the classroom 7:30-10:30am and district office 10:30-4:30pm. When educators are getting ready to homeschool, we have some serious issues with education.

 

[metime]

And here's another flip side the the vacation scenerio: due to budget cuts, school districts are now not taking children on field trips. As a response, two years ago, I took my dd who was in 3rd grade to Columbia, SC, to the State House to see the Legislature in session. It was an unexcused absence. In 3rd grade across the US, students learn state histroy. How was it unexcused for my husband and myself to take education into our own hands and teach them?

It's all becoming ridiculous. So much so, that I am contemplating quitting work, selling our second car, and homeschooling. And dh and I work in the school systems: him in a classroom 7:30-4:00 and me in the classroom 7:30-10:30am and district office 10:30-4:30pm. When educators are getting ready to homeschool, we have some serious issues with education.

Being that I coordinate a homeschooling group, I can attest that there are a lot of educators who do homeschool and made that choice because of their experiences with in schools.

I love it though as they are a valuable resource. There are so many people with masters degrees in all sorts for subjects that it makes for a very rich and rewarding experience for the parents and kids.

I am not against schools but this made me chuckle because there seems to be a lot of people who feel the same way.

 

[Scurvy]

Except that over and over again, even when the district requires it, compiling make up work is being defined as "above and beyond", even to the point where a few posters have defended teachers who went out of their way to punish vacationing students who were acting within district policy.

Well I also find that unreasonable. I think that a teacher needs to comply with the rules and policies of their particular district or school just as the parents do, whatever those rules may be. That's part of a teacher's job, and for them to disregard that is wrong. If a family is following the regulations of their district then the teacher needs to work with them in whatever way the district (or school) requires. I simply don't think they should be expected to do anything beyond that which is expected by the school if doing so would intrude on their personal time.

 

[eliza61]

You know what. I never thought of that. I missed 2 exams in college. The first one, my car broke down and the second one, I had the flu.

I was not allowed to make up the first one and I received a zero. That was the policy. There were no test make-ups.

I called the professor when I had the flu and couuld barely speak. I was allowed to make up the second test but it was completely different and much harder. I also had to make it up on the Professor's schedule.

And college professors don't really care if you show up in most cases. Do the work, and you pass.

Maybe this is one reason why so many colleges say U.S. H.S. students are so ill prepared for college. They expect to be able to take off whenever they want to for play.

I went to the University of Pittsburgh. their policy was also very simple. show up and pass, don't show up or do the work ON TIME and fail. NO make ups, no late work and definitely no "I went to disneyworld" excuses.

 

[castleview]

Again, this is more complaining about things that the rest of the workforce deals with on a regular basis. How many teachers do you know who are dealing with annual double digit increases to their health care premiums? Or layoff days so that they're expected to get 5 days' work done in 4 days' time and with 4 days' pay? Or get a pink slip on Friday telling them they don't have a job Monday? It isn't a cakewalk - no job is - but teachers do have it pretty good in comparison to much of the rest of the workforce.

Having worked both in the private sector and in a public high school, I realize the difficulty of the private sector. However, you don't seem to take into consideration the actual job of teaching and working with kids. DH is an engineer turned teacher. He loves teaching, but will be the first to say that his private sector engineering job was far less stressful. I'm not saying teaching is the hardest job in the world, but I think comparing one job to another is silly.

My neighbor is a corrections officer in a prison - his benefits are ASTOUNDING, his hours are great and he can retire after twenty years. Yet, no way could I ever do his job so I won't complain about how good he has it.

 

[boettj]

Of course not, but I acknowledged that later in that same post. Nor are they paid to work those hours during the summer. I hope your husband is paid to work during the summer - that's an awful lot of time to be donating to his job, otherwise.


Oh, I know there are jobs that have much worse hours than those of teachers. My husband, for example, has worked 7 days a week, from 6:00 AM until at least 6:00 or 7:00 PM, with daily telecons at 10:00 at night, since July with very few breaks. His hours have been much worse than most teacher's hours, but that doesn't give him the right to expect our son's teachers to donate their extra time to make our vacations possible. That is the point I've been trying to make.

The post that you quoted was in response to someone who seemed to be under the impression that teachers (who are not compensated for working at all over the summer) walk out the door on the last day of school and walk back in at the beginning of the next school year and don't do a bit of work in the interim. Some people seem to feel that because teachers have more free time than some other jobs they "owe" some of that time to those who have worse hours. I think that's ridiculous. And when that expectation is justified by people who talk about all the "time off" that teachers have, I feel the need to point out that teachers don't have it as easy as many people seem to think. Of course it wouldn't matter if they did have it that easy - you still wouldn't be entitled to one minute of their free time. The fact that some teachers are willing to spend extra time helping people seems to have made some people come to expect that, and I think that is completely unreasonable.

You know I wrote a whole blurb about teachers that I retracted from this post. This is not a discussion on whether teachers earn their pay, whether they should be health care premiums, or get summers off. This is a question of family time. I understand that schools are funded based on attendance. What happens if H1N1 is as bad as we hear, and 1/3 of school is out. I know that in our district there are certain days they use for budgeting purposes. While the school does not officially tell us this, we understand the importance of keeping our schools properly funded. If politicians have put road blocks in to prevent parents from taking their children on vacation, then those laws must be challenged or written. If you feel strong enough about them.

As for a teacher proving work while you are on vacation. Honestly, we use to try and get my DS10's teacher to provide us with work. However, two years ago, his teacher simply stated that he's on vacation, have fun. All she asked was that he keep a journal. For elmentary students that normally works.

When kids get into middle school and high school, that is not so simple. As stated on this thread, many teachers teach outside of the book. Which tells me one of two things: 1. the books they have are no good. 2. The teacher is going above and beyond to provide a better education.

So, take your child on vacation. If you feel that they need to keep up, then they need to call someone from their class to find out the assignments. Also, enjoy your vacation.

 

[Indiana Rose Lee]

Being that I coordinate a homeschooling group, I can attest that there are a lot of educators who do homeschool and made that choice because of their experiences with in schools.

I love it though as they are a valuable resource. There are so many people with masters degrees in all sorts for subjects that it makes for a very rich and rewarding experience for the parents and kids.

I am not against schools but this made me chuckle because there seems to be a lot of people who feel the same way.

my best friend is a homeschooling teacher. For income she subs once a week, and her husband uses one of his days off to teach the kiddos. About 1/4 or our group are teachers, another are engineers (I thought that was intersting) and then the rest is a hodgepodge.

I worked with teachers in the public system, and came out the other side full of respect. I just prefer not working within that system.

eta: My SIL homeschooled her kids through high school and then finished college with them. She became a teacher, and started her own school. It is becoming gaining an excellent reputation in her city.

 

[Indiana Rose Lee]

Maybe this is one reason why so many colleges say U.S. H.S. students are so ill prepared for college. They expect to be able to take off whenever they want to for play.

I went to the University of Pittsburgh. their policy was also very simple. show up and pass, don't show up or do the work ON TIME and fail. NO make ups, no late work and definitely no "I went to disneyworld" excuses.

Our policy is one missed class. After that the grade drops. We've made some adjustments due to the H1N1 concerns. Any student with signs of flu must stay in their room, and have a fellow student collect the assignment. Meals will be sent in. This is for 24 hours after the fever is gone.

 

[Colleen27]

Maybe this is one reason why so many colleges say U.S. H.S. students are so ill prepared for college. They expect to be able to take off whenever they want to for play.

I went to the University of Pittsburgh. their policy was also very simple. show up and pass, don't show up or do the work ON TIME and fail. NO make ups, no late work and definitely no "I went to disneyworld" excuses.

I've had 3 experiences at 3 different colleges, and 2 of the 3 didn't count attendance at all. It was the student's responsibility to find out what was missed and complete it on time, but no one was taking attendance and penalizing students for not having their butt in the seat.

I think the reasons American kids are often ill-prepared for college is that so many schools fail to challenge college-bound kids that the brightest kids don't develop any study or work habits to speak of. When they start college and find themselves having to study, it is an entirely new experience to which they have trouble adequately adjusting.

 

[Indiana Rose Lee]

I think the reasons American kids are often ill-prepared for college is that so many schools fail to challenge college-bound kids that the brightest kids don't develop any study or work habits to speak of. When they start college and find themselves having to study, it is an entirely new experience to which they have trouble adequately adjusting.

I'd agree to an extent. It isn't merely up to a school to teach study habits and work ethic. I'd say the parents need to be accountable for their child's basic character. What happens when parents are telling them that they only need to pass a class. If that is what my kids do in college, I'll stop paying their tuition.