Student Loans

[EilonwyWanderer]

Higher education in America is set up to make the rich richer and make the middle class believe that by taking on tremendous amounts of debt they too can change their class status. Only they're thinking it will go up when in reality it will likely go down. It's also gatekeeping the 'good' jobs for people who already have money. Notice how degree requirements have crept up and up? Used to be you needed a BA, now it's MA either required or strongly suggested.

Look at other countries where higher education is either free or very affordable. There are ways to do this that don't bankrupt people or keep them in desperate jobs just trying to make their payments on time. That's a society that believes education should be for everyone. That there is potential in everyone that shouldn't be barred by access to money.

I graduated with a ton of student debt through two masters degrees and a PhD and I've paid it all off and I would ABSOLUTELY support cancelling all student debt out there in a heartbeat. There is no 'I paid my dues' here. You paid into a system that is predatory. Did it suck? Yes. Should it be eliminated so other people don't have to go through it? Yes, right now.

My mother in law died of cancer. I don't go around waving my arms saying cancer research should be stopped because it didn't save her so why should improvements be made to save other people. Seriously, listen to yourselves.

 

[kymom99]

Higher education in America is set up to make the rich richer and make the middle class believe that by taking on tremendous amounts of debt they too can change their class status. Only they're thinking it will go up when in reality it will likely go down. It's also gatekeeping the 'good' jobs for people who already have money. Notice how degree requirements have crept up and up? Used to be you needed a BA, now it's MA either required or strongly suggested.

Look at other countries where higher education is either free or very affordable. There are ways to do this that don't bankrupt people or keep them in desperate jobs just trying to make their payments on time. That's a society that believes education should be for everyone. That there is potential in everyone that shouldn't be barred by access to money.

I graduated with a ton of student debt through two masters degrees and a PhD and I've paid it all off and I would ABSOLUTELY support cancelling all student debt out there in a heartbeat. There is no 'I paid my dues' here. You paid into a system that is predatory. Did it suck? Yes. Should it be eliminated so other people don't have to go through it? Yes, right now.

My mother in law died of cancer. I don't go around waving my arms saying cancer research should be stopped because it didn't save her so why should improvements be made to save other people. Seriously, listen to yourselves.

I agree with the degree requirements. My sister has been a nurse for over 40 years. She is an RN with just an associates degree. Now you not only need a bachelors, they want a masters. My niece is a nurse practitioner with a doctorate. Because now everyone wants to be a nurse practitioner.

My nephew recently graduated with a doctorate in physical therapy.

It seems a little crazy that these careers need such advanced degrees and that kids feel that they need to keep giving their money to these educational institutions.

 

[MillauFr]

Curious question what do you consider an affordable school (tuition and fees)? How much do you think is reasonable for room and board if required for the first year?

Room and board? $1,500 per month.

 

[Carol_]

I’ve been aggressively paying down my loans lately, finally getting ahead of the interest, after WAY too many years in forebearance and on income-based repayment. I’ll be thrilled to be out from under it and saving for retirement soon. I’m under no illusion that anyone else will pay it, but I started to get cranky about it when I ran some numbers and realized I had paid 143% of the principal already but still owed $50k.
There used to be laws against indentured servitude.

 

[CGB]

I've never felt student-loan forgiveness would get much traction. The number of people in the US that go to college is currently about 38%; the number falls to 14% that receive higher degrees. That leaves an awful lot of people who wouldn't be happy about it.

We did everything we could to avoid college debt. Between myself and our kids, we've used the military, community colleges, AP & dual-credit classes, local university, transfer scholarship, living at home, multiple part-time and summer jobs, a full-ride scholarship, graduate assistant placements, evening classes while working, internships, etc. to reduce college costs and graduate debt-free for a total of four bachelors and two masters. I'm so happy that both kids are fully employed and debt-free with enough money saved for future homes/opportunities.

On the flip side, I watched my son's best friend get pushed by his parents to go away to a top football college and within 2.5 years, come home with $75K in debt with no degree. My heart aches for him now because I see how hard he works to survive and pay his debt. While I fully understand the argument against the forgiveness, I know how much it would mean to have that cloud lifted. Whenever student-loan forgiveness is mentioned, he's my first thought and how I wish he didn't have the burden anymore.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Can you be more specific about how you think it should be different?

Increase funding to schools so they don't rely heavily on tuition. While I can't speak for everywhere in KS consistently when funding is cut from the colleges they request from the Board of Regents increases in tuition and are almost always granted with the exception of a few times they've either been barred or collectively agreed not to (I think one of those times was for the 2020-2021 school year when the pandemic first hit). Tuition costs drive a lot of the reason and amount for the loans. The tuition since I graduated has increased to over $336 per credit hour. I believe I paid $120 (edited: $220 was misremembering) something or rather or so my senior year and my alma mater is still considered one of the more affordable colleges; that reflects from the 2009-2010 school year to this present one and when I first started in 2006 it was under $100 ($200) per credit hour. Campus fees are close to $500 per semester this school year. I can only imagine how things are for students now when I think back to my own time.

Allow for cases such that those independent on their taxes are independent on FAFSA. In order to be independent on your taxes you have to attest that you provide at least 50% of your own financial support for one. Even a gradient system such that the benefits aren't as strong upon initial implementation in order to be able to tweak things as time goes would help. The IRS can reject you on the independent filing status but if they accept it they state they are saying you qualify as such.

Right now in order for your EFC to be zero your family would need to make less than $27K which leaves a lot of people on the table where their EFC won't be that but also may not be able to provide several thousand if not more or the student is the one paying for it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I didn’t buy the most expensive one, but wanted to be sure he had access to a full meal each day.

Most I knew didn't buy 3 meals a day or the equivalent to what that ends up being. IIRC I did like 2 meals a day or something like that although with work I often traded in a meal for a bag lunch. They have overhauled the dining options at my alma mater so I can't really compare to when I was there but the minimum required amount is just over $3,700 per year for this upcoming school year.

 

[kymom99]

Most I knew didn't buy 3 meals a day or the equivalent to what that ends up being. IIRC I did like 2 meals a day or something like that although with work I often traded in a meal for a bag lunch. They have overhauled the dining options at my alma mater so I can't really compare to when I was there but the minimum required amount is just over $3,700 per year for this upcoming school year.

His was about that for his required freshman plan. His school did an unlimited plan that first year. He did a 5 day plan but they offered a 7 day. We just figured he would be home some weekends and he had lots of gift cards to go out and treat himself the other weekends. After that we bought a lesser plan where you got a certain number of swipes. But he still took full advantage of it. They had a thing where you could trade a meal swipe for one of the fast food meals on campus. He enjoyed getting moes for a treat once in a while.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

His was about that for his required freshman plan. After that we bought a lesser plan. But he still took full advantage of it. They had a thing where you could trade a meal swipe for one of the fast food meals on campus. He enjoyed getting moes for a treat once in a while.

Yeah that amount is across all years if you're on campus at my alma mater, it's just the minimum. You can't buy anything less than that.

 

[barkley]

Kindof a side note but related; we are looking at a couple of different smaller Universities for DD right now that REQUIRE you to live on-campus for at least the first year. I think my Alma Matter does too. These are all very affordable schools though - not really part of the problem. No idea if this is the case with the more expensive Universities.

my oldest began college in 2013 and freshman were not required to live on campus BUT when our state mandated in 2015 that in state public colleges and universities HAD one year to reduce tuition by a minimum of 15-20% ALL OF A SUDDEN the colleges suddenly realized and announced that it was 'detrimental' for incoming freshman to live off campus. dorm and food plan rates skyrocketed to compensate and more than surpass for the 15-20% reduction. coincidence? i think not.

Curious question what do you consider an affordable school (tuition and fees)? How much do you think is reasonable for room and board if required for the first year?

well, i look at what our local public university charges and it works out to just shy of 7 months of actual housing/meals/utilities (september-through june minus 2 months where students are not permitted to remain in campus housing without paying a significant surcharge extra b/c of a 6 week winter break, 2 weeks for spring break). the upcoming academic year they are charging (for lowest bare bones meal plan/double room) just above $17.000. the cost of living in our area is in no way such that it costs over $2400 per month for bare bones housing and a minimal food plan (that the university acknowledges people should strongly consider upgrading from). a NICE one bedroom apartment with a private bathroom, private washer and dryer, water, garbage, a private (individual) garage and a free of charge bus stop immediately in front that drops off/picks up at the university less than 2 miles away is less than $1000 per month so 2 people in that cramped dorm could pay $500 each. food, power and internet can easily be gotten for 2 people at no more than $1000 per month. this is less than 42% of what the university is charging these 2 students.

i can't say what the fair market value of tuition is but i think it's pretty fluid based on my personal experience. i paid 10% the tuition to take the identical classes/identical curriculum from the identical professors my peers had at their overpriced 'name' colleges. how? i took the summer and night community college classes those same profs taught at the prestigious name california universities down the road during the day. i see the same thing happening today where i live now-same profs teaching identical classes at different locations but depending on the name brand of the college-very different cost of attendance.

They still inflate those costs by listing the most expensive meal plan and room.

the over 70% calculation i mentioned in an earlier post was the lowest level room and meal plan. upgrading to the 'nicer' dorms/better rooms runs about 20% more/meal plans are so confusing the bulk of students end up wasting money the first year until they figure it out.

 

[mom2rtk]

I think I may have heard that the schools quote the highest costs in order for them to get more funding for their school. I don’t know if they get more aid or what. Don’t know if I have that right but I think I do. Something to that effect.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. It doesn't mean every student needs that amount of money or needs to take loans for that amount.

 

[mom2rtk]

Increase funding to schools so they don't rely heavily on tuition. While I can't speak for everywhere in KS consistently when funding is cut from the colleges they request from the Board of Regents increases in tuition and are almost always granted with the exception of a few times they've either been barred or collectively agreed not to (I think one of those times was for the 2020-2021 school year when the pandemic first hit). Tuition costs drive a lot of the reason and amount for the loans. The tuition since I graduated has increased to over $336 per credit hour. I believe I paid $120 (edited: $220 was misremembering) something or rather or so my senior year and my alma mater is still considered one of the more affordable colleges; that reflects from the 2009-2010 school year to this present one and when I first started in 2006 it was under $100 ($200) per credit hour. Campus fees are close to $500 per semester this school year. I can only imagine how things are for students now when I think back to my own time.

Allow for cases such that those independent on their taxes are independent on FAFSA. In order to be independent on your taxes you have to attest that you provide at least 50% of your own financial support for one. Even a gradient system such that the benefits aren't as strong upon initial implementation in order to be able to tweak things as time goes would help. The IRS can reject you on the independent filing status but if they accept it they state they are saying you qualify as such.

Right now in order for your EFC to be zero your family would need to make less than $27K which leaves a lot of people on the table where their EFC won't be that but also may not be able to provide several thousand if not more or the student is the one paying for it.

Once you increase funding to schools, is there any way to stop them from just raising rates even more? Because that's how these things usually go.

I don't disagree with your suggestion of allowing kids who file independently to do the same for FAFSA. I just think it's ripe for abuse. People will plan and strategize for it. The dollars involved are too high. They system would be stretched beyond belief.

If you think the fees at KU are high, you should see the fees at MU engineering. Almost as much as tuition.

 

[mrodgers]

We need both. People buried in student loan debt need relief and we need to fix everything that caused this problem in the first place.

Stop taking out loans when you have or will have no way of paying them back.

Ok, so we fixed the problem. Now how do you fix other people being buried in debt of their own doing while now living and trying to pay your own way on less?

Like I've said, and was attacked for, where is my relief? Oh, I didn't bury myself in debt so it's my responsibility to bail out those who did.

 

[mrodgers]

Opportunity is not equal. Hard work does not change that. It is not that simple. Just because someone's path is different than yours, doesn't mean that they don't deserve what you do.

Through her very very dedicated to education hard work, my daughter is going to school in less than 4 weeks. Mom was a spendy mom and I struggled to pay the bills all of my marriage. "No one paid for my college..." was the mantra so there was nothing for college from us for our 2 daughters.

So far it looks like she will have a possible total of $20,000 in loans to go to a $200,000 college. My oldest, I would have not allowed her to do that. This one, she blows my mind on how hard she works and I have no doubt she will succeed after college and the loan will be a drop in the bucket.

She didn't get anything because we were rich and special. She didn't get anything because we were poor. We weren't poor. I made a decent paycheck, just had nothing because the wife's idea of personal finances was to have the checkbook at $0 by Saturday evening. She did everything herself and got what she got 100% because of her hard work.

 

[sam_gordon]

Like I've said, and was attacked for, where is my relief? Oh, I didn't bury myself in debt so it's my responsibility to bail out those who did.

I had some more thoughts on what else we should eliminate because "it's not fair"...

First, mortgage interest tax breaks. Renters don't get tax breaks. If someone chooses to buy a house, why should they get a break? It's their choice to enter into that contract, they shouldn't get government help to pay for their house.

Second, all the tax breaks around having children. Tax breaks for having kids. Tax breaks for child care. It's your choice to have kids. You should have to pay for everything.

How about the scholarships that are dedicated to women? To American Indians? To folks from certain states, counties, schools?

The demand for college degrees is high. That's why prices have skyrocketed. I went to an OOS school. 30 years after I graduated, the cost for my kids to attend one semester at a public school (in the same state I attended) equaled what I paid for two years.

So many people graduating with degrees is why we have the "degree inflation" PP mentioned. If everyone has a HS degree, the Associate Degree stands out. If everyone has an Associate Degree, the Bachelor's stands out. If everyone has a Bachelor's, the Master's stands out. Etc, etc, etc.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't disagree with your suggestion of allowing kids who file independently to do the same for FAFSA. I just think it's ripe for abuse. People will plan and strategize for it. The dollars involved are too high. They system would be stretched beyond belief

Not to be realistic but that happens right now with AGI, my husband qualified for more financial aid than I did using his stepdad's income which had an AGI a certain amount due to tax stuff but IRL made a LOT more than my mom did. Plus he had 3 parents to strategically choose from as your goal is usually to put the lowest, they plugged in the numbers and saw that his dad would not be a good choice for example. And my husband has parental aid for the first year.

I'd call this the greater good in allowing independent filing status as the percentage of those who qualify for the IRS isn't exactly all that much. As is it makes zero sense that someone who provides for themselves isn't able to use that income.

Once you increase funding to schools, is there any way to stop them from just raising rates even more? Because that's how these things usually go.

Historically at least not in KS, when funding is given rates don't increase or they agree to a tuition freeze, when funding is reduced they ask for tuition increase. Rates will increase over time as a matter of practicality and that's fine but petitioning to raise tuition 4-7+% year over year over year to plug the hole left in aid is much more damaging and on a larger scale.

If you think the fees at KU are high, you should see the fees at MU engineering. Almost as much as tuition

My husband did engineering at KU, the fees were high too, in fact despite him getting more financial aid than me he ended up with about the same debt as me due to course fees for the most part for the school of engineering. According to online for this year it's just about $55 per credit hour additional for school of engineering.. MU does appear from what you're saying be way worse though. Darn engineers (attempt at levity here)

 

[Colleen27]

Increase funding to schools so they don't rely heavily on tuition. While I can't speak for everywhere in KS consistently when funding is cut from the colleges they request from the Board of Regents increases in tuition and are almost always granted with the exception of a few times they've either been barred or collectively agreed not to (I think one of those times was for the 2020-2021 school year when the pandemic first hit). Tuition costs drive a lot of the reason and amount for the loans. The tuition since I graduated has increased to over $336 per credit hour. I believe I paid $120 (edited: $220 was misremembering) something or rather or so my senior year and my alma mater is still considered one of the more affordable colleges; that reflects from the 2009-2010 school year to this present one and when I first started in 2006 it was under $100 ($200) per credit hour. Campus fees are close to $500 per semester this school year. I can only imagine how things are for students now when I think back to my own time.

Allow for cases such that those independent on their taxes are independent on FAFSA. In order to be independent on your taxes you have to attest that you provide at least 50% of your own financial support for one. Even a gradient system such that the benefits aren't as strong upon initial implementation in order to be able to tweak things as time goes would help. The IRS can reject you on the independent filing status but if they accept it they state they are saying you qualify as such.

Right now in order for your EFC to be zero your family would need to make less than $27K which leaves a lot of people on the table where their EFC won't be that but also may not be able to provide several thousand if not more or the student is the one paying for it.

I agree with all of this, plus increasing Pell Grant aid to a meaningful amount - here, the full grant, which as you point out only goes to families at/near poverty level - doesn't even cover the cost of community college, and the full Pell Grant plus the max federal student loan just barely covers or just falls short of tuition only at a four-year public university. A lot of kids in that bracket end up dropping out because their grants pay tuition but don't buy books or put gas in for their commute. Tangentially, the way cost of attendance is calculated for commuter students is very much rooted in the idea of a middle class kid living at home and not paying for anything, and that should change as well to acknowledge the real costs of commuting.

Along with that, we need stronger regulatory oversight on university spending - I'm still salty about the year my alma mater raised tuition by almost exactly the same amount they spent on a new, state-of-the-art basketball stadium and athletic training facility, complete with a custom court floor entirely in the school colors. I don't think most people realize the extent to which tuition dollars are providing minor leagues for the NFL and NBA, particularly at the schools that are just there for the big name schools (which can sometimes bring in enough revenue to cover their costs) to have someone to beat on a regular basis. I also think more oversight is needed at the administrative level because right now the pay structure in academia is just as top-heavy as in the corporate world. Again drawing on my alma mater, there was a brief strike last year over the university's intention of continuing pandemic-era pay concessions for professors while restoring administrative pay to pre-pandemic levels and then some, and the previous president came under heavy scrutiny and ultimately stepped down in part over his creation of a whole layer of six-figure "assistants" while shifting more and more classes onto adjunct teaching staff.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Stop taking out loans when you have or will have no way of paying them back.

Ok, so we fixed the problem. Now how do you fix other people being buried in debt of their own doing while now living and trying to pay your own way on less?

Like I've said, and was attacked for, where is my relief? Oh, I didn't bury myself in debt so it's my responsibility to bail out those who did.

Either/Or isn't how much of our world works. We can lay responsibility on certain (although based on misconceptions many seem to believe this is just everyone) individuals for knowingly getting into a mess they knew they couldn't deal with which goes for many things on the debt scale. We can also lay responsibility on societal norms, on business practices, lack of protection laws, on how things presently work or did in the past, etc.

I consider myself responsible for my student loan debt but I also see the flaws in various parts of the industry as well as higher education. I wish more people were less close-minded about it all.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I agree with all of this, plus increasing Pell Grant aid to a meaningful amount - here, the full grant, which as you point out only goes to families at/near poverty level - doesn't even cover the cost of community college, and the full Pell Grant plus the max federal student loan just barely covers or just falls short of tuition only at a four-year public university. A lot of kids in that bracket end up dropping out because their grants pay tuition but don't buy books or put gas in for their commute. Tangentially, the way cost of attendance is calculated for commuter students is very much rooted in the idea of a middle class kid living at home and not paying for anything, and that should change as well to acknowledge the real costs of commuting.

Along with that, we need stronger regulatory oversight on university spending - I'm still salty about the year my alma mater raised tuition by almost exactly the same amount they spent on a new, state-of-the-art basketball stadium and athletic training facility, complete with a custom court floor entirely in the school colors. I don't think most people realize the extent to which tuition dollars are providing minor leagues for the NFL and NBA, particularly at the schools that are just there for the big name schools (which can sometimes bring in enough revenue to cover their costs) to have someone to beat on a regular basis. I also think more oversight is needed at the administrative level because right now the pay structure in academia is just as top-heavy as in the corporate world. Again drawing on my alma mater, there was a brief strike last year over the university's intention of continuing pandemic-era pay concessions for professors while restoring administrative pay to pre-pandemic levels and then some, and the previous president came under heavy scrutiny and ultimately stepped down in part of his creation of a whole layer of six-figure "assistants" while shifting more and more classes onto adjunct teaching staff.

I agree on both accounts.

Gosh I can't even imagine how much the costs would be for me to drive back and forth like I did. I did that because typically speaking the jobs were more plentiful and more amount in my county than where my college was located at although I worked at a halloween store in that college town during that season for 3 years while also working back in my county while also being a full time student and then my senior year starting second semester I worked for the University. My husband was able to benefit from his work paying him the government rate per mile after months of commuting every day during the week going from class to work. Both my husband and I worked during college. I know people don't like to think that way but there are individuals who did have to take out loans, who did work during school and who would benefit from consideration of this. We're stuck in a rut in how people's attitudes as well as policies are in place with higher education.

Investment in one's college should still come with checks and balances on that. As well as smart investment choices too. I think teachers, deans, chancellors, admins, etc all should be paid well but as with other industries those at the bottom to the middle get left behind in the pay adjustments. Just like public school lower education teachers can find themselves way underpaid chronically.

Speaking about tuition an article from earlier this year listed that my alma mater (considered the main college in the state) has had an increase of 82% of the tuition and fees in the last 15 years. To put it that way that lines up to right around when I started college and it's def. eye popping when I see increases. Although the tuition itself will be on the 4th year flat mainly due to funding increase and freezes. The other main college in the state has seen 80% increase in tuition and fees in the last 15 years.

In regards to your pell grant absolutely. An article 2 months ago lists for my alma mater there will be $19 million more in aid for scholarships given by the Board of Regents. For all state financial aid at a public university the maximum financial aid per student is being doubled from $2,000 to $4,000. That seems like it took way too long to do that. As far as private universities (which the article said there's only about 20 in the state) they did not receive as much aid from the state this time around but the financial aid they can give to their students was increased from $3,500 to $10,000. Speaking about independent tax status that would have meant my EFC would have been zero if using just my income..but you know what? That was the reality of my situation. The reality of my situation wasn't using my mom's income. It wouldn't have meant I would have been debt free oh no but it would have been reflective of my actual situation.

 

[mrodgers]

I had some more thoughts on what else we should eliminate because "it's not fair"...

First, mortgage interest tax breaks. Renters don't get tax breaks. If someone chooses to buy a house, why should they get a break? It's their choice to enter into that contract, they shouldn't get government help to pay for their house.

Second, all the tax breaks around having children. Tax breaks for having kids. Tax breaks for child care. It's your choice to have kids. You should have to pay for everything.

How about the scholarships that are dedicated to women? To American Indians? To folks from certain states, counties, schools?

The demand for college degrees is high. That's why prices have skyrocketed. I went to an OOS school. 30 years after I graduated, the cost for my kids to attend one semester at a public school (in the same state I attended) equaled what I paid for two years.

So many people graduating with degrees is why we have the "degree inflation" PP mentioned. If everyone has a HS degree, the Associate Degree stands out. If everyone has an Associate Degree, the Bachelor's stands out. If everyone has a Bachelor's, the Master's stands out. Etc, etc, etc.

I agree with everything you said. Why some people get entitlements is beyond me. No one is entitled to anything. I'm not, why should others be.