Stay-at-Home Parent or Unemployed?

[KateP85]

I have a 2-year old son and baby number 2 on the way. I work 2 days a week, then I'm home with my son the rest of the time. Going to work is certainly less demanding than being at home with a toddler, but I have an easy job. I don't think I'd want to work full time, but I know equally I would hate to be home with my son all day every day too. But I wouldn't judge anyone who made either decision. Once the kids are in school, I'll probably quit my job altogether to be around for them, and hopefully do some volunteering. I have no plans to spend all day cooking and cleaning!

Now having said I'm not a SAHM, I cannot imagine anyone genuinely believing it is the hardest job in the world!

 

[Christine]

I think part of what gets "both sides" going on this issue is some of the terminology used. By general definitions a "job" is a paid position of regular employment, a task or piece of work, especially one that is paid, something done for private advantage, or the regular work that a person does to earn money. Certainly, the definition can and has been loosened up to define other activities that are unpaid, such as volunteering on a regular basis but I think even most regular volunteers wouldn't tell you that this is their "job." Personally, it rubs me the wrong way when someone refers to their parenting role as a job. No, it's a choice you made to have children and, further, if you stay home, you've decided that you won't be at paid employment or have a job while you parent. But parenting, while mentally exhausting (as most caregiver roles are), is just parenting. It's work and it's hard, I will give you that! I mean, I've 99% been a working parent and I don't say to people that I have TWO jobs? Now, jokingly, as I've left the office I have said to my coworkers "Well, I'm off now to my second job!"

I think most working parents feel slighted when they are busting their butts at a job all day come home and then do ALL of those things someone has an extra 8-10 hours to take care of and hear how overwhelmed that SAHP is. I know people will throw out that w pay others to do things, but in my circle, that's really not done at all. Alternatively, I think SAHPs feel slighted when working parents insinuate that they aren't really doing much at home.

Also, I think we all make judgments based on our own observations about what we see in our groups and then you get locked in on that viewpoint. I know that I have done that. As a working parent, I've benefitted greatly from a couple of SAHMs who often took my child along to things that occurred right after school that I couldn't manage. Or they pitched in when they saw I might have had some "before school" care issues. I've also seen other SAHMs who I really didn't understand what benefit they thought they were even providing their children; heck they couldn't even manage to regularly get their kids to school on time repeatedly. I'm sure in the reverse direction, plenty of SAHPs have witnessed the stereotypical working parents who can't be bothered, are not there for their kids in the evenings, driving the infamous Lexus vehicles, etc.

I think SAHPs need to quit feeling like they have to defend their choice by quantifying it as a "job" and they need to quit trying to convince the world that it's the best and most selfless thing (and the hardest) thing to do. Calling it a job and telling everyone that it is so hard just makes you lose credibility.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

So how exactly am I supposed to work outside of the home and still let them participate? Do they walk home two miles, even in the dead of winter (we're in New England!)?

Well, yeah. I didn't live in New England, but I did grow up in Michigan, and that's how we did it. I mean, really young kids can go to an after school program or other after school activities to keep them busy until you're off of work, but middle and high schoolers can find their own way home and take care of themselves. Of course, once your high schooler drives you can make them pick up the younger kids.

Do I rely on other parents who ARE home to do all my carting around for me?

Only if you're planning on paying them.

What happens during summer vacation? Or other school vacations? Are they stuck in a daycare the whole time? (Obviously not now, but when they were younger.)

Well, yeah. I always thought daycare and other after school programs were pretty fun. I felt lucky to be able to go to them.

I have also been very involved in their schools over the years and I think this is hugely important. I know all their friends, I know the teachers. There's a connection. And I feel I really contributed to the experience they had throughout school in a positive way. Isn't that important/valued?

Of course it is! But I have a question for you...why do you think parents who work aren't involved in their kids classes or schools? I mean, my mom wasn't the one making stuffed cats for every kid in the class, but she shared her time on projects, and fundraisers, and field trips, and PTA, and other school related activities. You don't have to be a stay at home mom to be involved in your kids' lives.

I just don't quite understand the mindset of once the kids are in school, everything is magically taken care of and I have no reason to be at home.

I don't particularly understand the mindset that someone has to be at home to care for kids at all. I understand that for some people it makes economic sense, but I was a happy daycare child. It was the norm in my neighborhood, to the point where I was weirded out the first time I met a "stay at home" mom.

If you want to stay home, and you can afford it, then do so. If you want to work, and can make it work with your family, then do so. Why judge what other people choose to do?

 

[gwynne]

And the mommy wars continue....
Most (nearly all?) SAHP don't think it is the "hardest" job.
If you insource the work of running a home you save some $$$.
If you outsource the work of running a home you save some time.

I don't buy into if you are employed by someone else, it's valuable work, but if you do it for your family, it's less valuable.
Will there ever come a time of live and let live?

 

[NHdisneylover]

I don'T see being an at home parent or spouse as a job; but I also do not see myself as unemployed (which indicates I want to or should have a paying job).

In between those two extremes is simply doing what works for me and my family.

 

[mjkacmom]

I have a 2-year old son and baby number 2 on the way. I work 2 days a week, then I'm home with my son the rest of the time. Going to work is certainly less demanding than being at home with a toddler, but I have an easy job. I don't think I'd want to work full time, but I know equally I would hate to be home with my son all day every day too. But I wouldn't judge anyone who made either decision. Once the kids are in school, I'll probably quit my job altogether to be around for them, and hopefully do some volunteering. I have no plans to spend all day cooking and cleaning!

Now having said I'm not a SAHM, I cannot imagine anyone genuinely believing it is the hardest job in the world!

I thought being a SAHM was hard, but certainly not when I was home with just #1. That was one of the best 20 months of my life, one I wish I could have one more time. I have friends who had an oops baby when their other kids were school-aged feel the same way. It was so much fun! I was hoping to have that same experience with #3, since #2 was almost 3 years older than she was, until #4 and #5 were born 22 months later, and the poop hit the fan.

 

[Colleen27]

I agree with you - the "parent" duties don't just end when the kids start school. I'm a SAHM to two high schoolers and a 2nd grader. This week, I've had one kid with three half-days and daytime parent-teacher conferences (because not everyone can fit in to the limited evening hours), another with a volleyball game or which it was my turn to help with the team dinner, and of course the youngest's Halloween party today. Yes, there are working parents involved in these things too but there is a lot of leaning on the parents who don't work, especially (understandably) for things like those team dinners that take place during traditional work hours.

I went back to school last year and even that has been a juggling act, relying on the older kids to get the youngest to/from school if my class schedule means I can't do it and asking for help from friends or family when I can't be there. Fortunately we do have family nearby, and my youngest's class is almost like a family as well because the school is so small and family-oriented. Until June, DH was working long and unpredictable hours so I couldn't lean on him to do "his share" of the kid duties so it really was all on me to either do it or delegate it, and I can't believe how much easier this fall has been with him home at 3:30 every day.

But I don't think "easier" is a dirty word. So often, especially in these conversations, we somehow equate busyness with virtue and free time with vice. There is a lot I do as a SAHM/college student that I wouldn't be able to do with a full time job, and it isn't all "for the kids" or even particularly productive (ie DIS-ing while my hair dries right now). Being in school two days a week has taken some juggling, and some of my favorite pursuits have suffered for it - my DD7 has the first store-bought Halloween costume of her life this year, and I actually bought tomatoes for canning because my gardens weren't what they usually are because when planting, finals, and baseball season overlapped the garden got neglected. Working would be even more of a juggling act, so why would I take that on without a compelling reason (financial or otherwise)?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I have to admit I'm blessed with the fact that I have a flexible schedule. I don't have to worry about making sure my kids get where they need to be for various activities because my wife and I can basically be home as soon as or right after the kids got home from school. And once we got to middle school, all after school activities were at school or in the evening after dinner.

So I don't have to think about the fact that I work 9 - 5 and little Johnny needs someone to get him to Tae Kwon Do at 4.

 

[Daisy62]

I consider someone unemployed if they are wanting a job and don't have one. A SAHM isn't looking for a job. I have stayed home some my middle child now 27 y/o was born. My youngest is 16 and I've yet to go back to work and have no desire to. I don't consider myself unemployed. I am retired. Lol

 

[Daisy62]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a city that has suburbs without any public transportation. My.mind.is.blown.

We live in what I consider the burbs. There is no public transportation unless you drive 7 miles to a major highway. Then you can catch the bus that goes up and down that highway from Baltimore to Annapolis.

 

[Colleen27]

You must have never been to the Detroit suburbs. I have heard there are SMART busses in the city limits and suposedly in the VERY near suburbs, but have rarely seen one, and have never known anyone that has ever used it, and I lived there for 35 years. And the places I lived during that time (anywhere from 20-45 min out from the heart of Detroit), there was no service whatsoever.

Where I live now, we have an amazing public transportation system far out into the suburbs - service as much as an hour away or more from the city center. The difference in availability of mass transit between the two cities is "Mind. Blowing."

ETA: I just read the rest of your responses and realized that you, in fact, probably never *have* been to Detroit LOL since you don't live in the states! Sorry!!!!

I thought the same thing. The bus system here is so dysfunctional, with suburbs having the ability to "opt out" of the regional system and the suburban system and Detroit system not being fully integrated... I remember as a kid taking the bus downtown with my grandmother, who never drove. We'd take the suburban bus from our suburb to city limits, get off, and wait for the city bus that would take us the rest of the way to come. And that was just to go 13 miles down one single road. My brother lives in an inner-ring suburb. His work is about 10 minutes away by car, 30 by bike, or over 2 hours (and by bus.

I wasn’t going to touch this thread with a ten foot pole. But I do have two sincere questions for SAHPs:

1. Do you have assets in your own name? Or is your spouse putting away some retirement funds for you as well? Is this something you ever worry about? If the only working parent died or took off, would you be ok financially?

2. How will you define yourself once the kids leave the nest? Hands-on responsibility to your kid is *supposed* to last 18 years, though seems to be getting stretched out these days. Kids keep us all very busy, and that is the ‘now’ of life. But once the cooking, cleaning, and carting is done – what do you see yourself doing?

These are just things I’ve always been genuinely curious about, if anyone cares to share.

1. Yes, but not much. DH spent a lot of years self-employed so we've been trying to max out both of our IRAs each year in the absence or a 401k that might make retirement saving easier. And I have a small 401k gathering dust from when I was working. Other than that and a low-limit credit card, nothing is solely in my name. If DH died we'd be set. We joke that he's worth more dead than alive because when we last reviewed our life insurance we took out an additional policy to account for the added cost of the private schools we've chosen for our girls. If he left, honestly, I'd struggle for a while. I acknowledge that risk but at the same time I consider it a very, very small risk because he's an extremely dedicated father and I can't imagine anything that would matter more to him than being a daily part of the kids' lives. Even in his career choices, the goal has always been to earn a decent living without missing out on the kids' lives, rather than maximizing earning potential.

2. That's something I'm asking myself a lot these days. I never really planned to return to work, though I'll be fairly young when the kids leave the nest (mid-40s when my last starts college). When DH was in business for himself I was running the office side and freelancing a bit, and we grew very attached to the freedom to take off together whenever he had a lull. We both figured I'd go straight from "SAHM" to "retired" and keep on as we were rather than giving up the flexibility of not having a job. I am the kind of person that would be perfectly content filling my days with volunteering and hobbies - I keep big veggie gardens, can, cook, sew, etc., and love reading and taking classes just for fun, and we were traveling quite a bit when DH had the time even if it was close to home. But DH closed his business this year, a trade off that means better hours and benefits but far less time for travel, and I went back to school and am really enjoying it. So now I'm weighing the options and leaning towards either going back to work full time or starting my own business once I finish my degree.

 

[tzolkin]

If someone asks what you do for a living, and you reply by saying you're a sahm, I don't think that it's a job title. To me, it means you are a parent and that you don't work. I also question why it is such a hard role to have as a PP said it is. I also question if you have older kids, whether or not it really takes 7 hours a day (each and every day) to clean and cook. What in the world are you doing that the rest of us aren't? I couldn't care less whether you're a sahm or a working mom, as everyone has a role to play in their family. I just don't agree with the logic behind it being work.

I can agree with much of what you are saying. I have never categorized it as a "job" either. However, I do think there can be a monetary value to it. For example, I spend a good amount of time meal planning, I do not buy anything unless it is a significant discount, and I cook everything we eat at home. That is a huge financial savings. It may not seem like much, but I know from discussions with friends who work that I spend $10,000 a year less on food than many of them do (eat out most nights each week or grab whatever they need at the most expensive grocery).

As for the bolded. My kids are now all in school. No, it certainly does not take me 7 hours a day to clean and cook. As many have posted we do other things-- volunteer, help extended family, spend time reading and learning, help support our spouses careers, I just adopted an abused dog that requires a significant amount of my time each day, etc. That said, we probably do spend more time cleaning (definitely cooking) than most working people do. That's not meant to be an insult and I don't think I'm "better than anyone"; I simply have the extra time to devote to that and I enjoy having an organized, clean, and calm home so I think its worth my time to do it.

A few examples for you that people like my mother (who probably did spend 7 hours cleaning) would do: daily- completely scrub bathrooms, change/wash sheets, disinfect trash cans, clean baseboards/trim, in addition to all "normal" cleaning she also did a lot outside including cleaning and gardening; weekly (at least)- clean windows, scrub/whiten all tile grout with a toothbrush, clean all light fixtures/fans (like take them apart and soak the pieces), wash curtains, clean interiors of all kitchen cabinets, etc, etc, etc. She did many things that most people would be lucky if they did once a year. I'm not saying this was necessary, but she would not have been lying if she told you that she cleaned all day (which is what you're implying with your statement).

 

[Lilacs4Me]

I thought the same thing. The bus system here is so dysfunctional, with suburbs having the ability to "opt out" of the regional system and the suburban system and Detroit system not being fully integrated... I remember as a kid taking the bus downtown with my grandmother, who never drove. We'd take the suburban bus from our suburb to city limits, get off, and wait for the city bus that would take us the rest of the way to come. And that was just to go 13 miles down one single road. My brother lives in an inner-ring suburb. His work is about 10 minutes away by car, 30 by bike, or over 2 hours (and by bus.

Right!!! I haven't lived there for 5 years now, so I wasn't sure if anything changed, but you are right. My mom talks all the time about how she used to take the bus with her grandmother from Dearborn down to Woodward Ave to shop, but that was WAYYYY back in the 50's and 60's! I grew up in the very Northwest corner of Detroit (5 blocks from the start of the suburbs) and saw busses every once in a while on major roads like Grand River or Telegraph, but never on the mile roads or anywhere else in the suburbs. And they were scary LOL The drivers always looked like they were questionable characters (not that they all were, I'm sure there were very nice bus drivers out there, but as a kid, they looked creepy to me!)

And the "People Mover" was a joke. Not even sure if that is still around, but the small loop that it does cannot be very beneficial to many people. The point, in my mind, of a mass transit system is that is actually services the areas that need it! If you have to drive to get to it in the first place, you might as well just drive the rest of the way to work!

And I never knew anyone that took a taxi.

 

[KateP85]

I thought being a SAHM was hard, but certainly not when I was home with just #1. That was one of the best 20 months of my life, one I wish I could have one more time. I have friends who had an oops baby when their other kids were school-aged feel the same way. It was so much fun! I was hoping to have that same experience with #3, since #2 was almost 3 years older than she was, until #4 and #5 were born 22 months later, and the poop hit the fan.

See, it seems hard to me right now, but I'm sure once baby number 2 comes along I'll look back on these days and wonder what I was complaining about!

 

[Colleen27]

↑
But again, it all comes down to what is important to whom. I put my whole life into being a SAHM, and when I had to go back to work for financial reasons (darn 2008-2012 economy collapse!), I did not want to "give up" the SAHM lifestyle I had created for my kids. It wasn't their fault that I had to start working! So, we brought a babysitter into the house instead of sending the kids to after-care at school, and I stayed up late at night to clean the house and make sure the dishes were done, or that they had homemade lunches, or that all their homework was checked and backpacks cleaned out. I still signed up to be Room Mom for their classes, and took a couple hours "personal time" (before I was a salaried employee) every couple weeks to help in youngest DS's kindergarten classroom like I had done with his older siblings. My vacation schedule looked like, and continues to this day to look like, the school calendar LOL random days dotted here and there because instead of taking a week off at a time, my vacation days are always saved for Halloween parties, and Christmas parties, and the first day of school, and the last, and the 6th grade choir concert and 4th grade Parents Day, etc, etc, etc.

IBut the stress is unbelievable. I finally had to accept the fact that I couldn't do everything, and had to stop trying to give 100% both at work at at home, and compromise on things. Did my kids die from it? Not at all. Did they even notice or care at all? A little, but it wasn't the end of the world for them. Kids are resilient and accepting, and these are truly first-world problems.

But it bothers ME.

I think choice is key. If you love your job and feel like you make a real difference, working is probably going to feel "easier" and more satisfying than staying home. If you're a SAHM because it affords the lifestyle and level of hands-on involvement you want for your kids, it is going to be "easier" than working. But if you're working strictly because you need the money but would rather be at home, or if you're a SAHM because your paycheck doesn't cover childcare but would rather be working, that same role is going to feel much more difficult than if you'd chosen it freely.

See, I don't see myself as a homemaker. I'm not making any homes, whatever that means. I tidy up the house but I don't clean. I have housekeepers who do that. I cook meals but I believe the working parents do that, tool I AM, however, staying home with my kids (when they are here with me) so I guess I come closer to being a SAHM. Whatever anyone wants to call me is fine, though. Doesn't change what I do.

I'm the same way. Homemaker really doesn't fit. I hate cleaning, and while I don't have a housekeeper I do delegate to my teens. And my husband doesn't get a free pass either any more, now that he's working a straight 40 hours/5 days instead of 6-7 days and 60+ hours. I do all the cooking, but we all live here so I expect we will all contribute to keeping up the house. And if/when I go back to work I'll absolutely be hiring a housekeeper. We've debated it since I started school but I'm not sure I want to spend the money just yet. Add in a second income, though, and that becomes a no-brainer.

If someone asks what you do for a living, and you reply by saying you're a sahm, I don't think that it's a job title. To me, it means you are a parent and that you don't work. I also question why it is such a hard role to have as a PP said it is. I also question if you have older kids, whether or not it really takes 7 hours a day (each and every day) to clean and cook. What in the world are you doing that the rest of us aren't? I couldn't care less whether you're a sahm or a working mom, as everyone has a role to play in their family. I just don't agree with the logic behind it being work.

Every role or job is hard at times, and pretty much anything worth being takes work. Being a SAHM is tough when the only human contact you've had all day is with a colicky baby, or when you're trying to be in three places at once because multiple kids have overlapping activities. But that's no different from having a bad day in any other role or job. Nothing is all sunshine and roses. And I don't know about you, but "work" is the only word that seems to fit for cleaning toilets or sitting through football practice when it is 30 degrees and raining, regardless of the role or job title of the person doing it. It certainly isn't fun/pleasure.

 

[Colleen27]

Right!!! I haven't lived there for 5 years now, so I wasn't sure if anything changed, but you are right. My mom talks all the time about how she used to take the bus with her grandmother from Dearborn down to Woodward Ave to shop, but that was WAYYYY back in the 50's and 60's! I grew up in the very Northwest corner of Detroit (5 blocks from the start of the suburbs) and saw busses every once in a while on major roads like Grand River or Telegraph, but never on the mile roads or anywhere else in the suburbs. And they were scary LOL The drivers always looked like they were questionable characters (not that they all were, I'm sure there were very nice bus drivers out there, but as a kid, they looked creepy to me!)

And the "People Mover" was a joke. Not even sure if that is still around, but the small loop that it does cannot be very beneficial to many people. The point, in my mind, of a mass transit system is that is actually services the areas that need it! If you have to drive to get to it in the first place, you might as well just drive the rest of the way to work!

And I never knew anyone that took a taxi.

I grew up in an east side suburb, around 12 Mile. It should have been easy to take a bus straight down Gratiot or Jefferson to get downtown but it never was... It always involved at least one transfer, and my grandmother was the only person I knew who actually used the bus to get around. And I know what you mean about the buses being scary. When I was 18 and going to school at U of Detroit-Mercy I took the bus to school once because my car was in the shop. Eek! Creepy people, multiple transfers in rough neighborhoods, just not good at all. I gave a friend gas money to drive me home to pick the car up instead of taking the bus for the return trip.

The People Mover is still around, and it is nice for visiting the city because it does the loop from the casino (where you can park free) to the stadiums and such, but it doesn't have the reach to be actual public transportation. I think it is more useful now than it was when it was built because downtown is so much busier now, but it is still useless to people who actually live in the city and need public transportation.

 

[SparklePixie]

If someone asks what you do for a living, and you reply by saying you're a sahm, I don't think that it's a job title. To me, it means you are a parent and that you don't work. I also question why it is such a hard role to have as a PP said it is. I also question if you have older kids, whether or not it really takes 7 hours a day (each and every day) to clean and cook. What in the world are you doing that the rest of us aren't? I couldn't care less whether you're a sahm or a working mom, as everyone has a role to play in their family. I just don't agree with the logic behind it being work.

I'm curious, do you have children?

 

[katie01]

If someone asks what you do for a living, and you reply by saying you're a sahm, I don't think that it's a job title. To me, it means you are a parent and that you don't work. I also question why it is such a hard role to have as a PP said it is. I also question if you have older kids, whether or not it really takes 7 hours a day (each and every day) to clean and cook. What in the world are you doing that the rest of us aren't? I couldn't care less whether you're a sahm or a working mom, as everyone has a role to play in their family. I just don't agree with the logic behind it being work.

If you don't think caring for children is work, why do you think that nannies make upwards of $44,000? Why would working parents pay so much for an "unnecessary" and "easy" service?

 

[morgan98]

If you don't think caring for children is work, why do you think that nannies make upwards of $44,000? Why would working parents pay so much for an "unnecessary" and "easy" service?

I think part of the debate stems from the work/job definition explained by another poster above. Taking care of your own children and family is work, however, it does not necessarily meet the definition of a job which is a paid position of regular employment. Yes, you are saving your family the cost of daycare. That is a given. However, anyone that cooks, cleans, does laundry or does their own yard work is doing that as well (saving their family money).

And the reason one would pay a nanny is because they are providing a service to a parent so they are free to work or do other things with their time. This is the same reason one would pay a housekeeper or a personal chef.

 

[katie01]

I think part of the debate stems from the work/job definition explained by another poster above. Taking care of your own children and family is work, however, it does not necessarily meet the definition of a job which is a paid position of regular employment. Yes, you are saving your family the cost of daycare. That is a given. However, anyone that cooks, cleans, does laundry or does their own yard work is doing that as well.

And the reason one would pay a nanny is because they are providing a service to a parent so they are free to work or do other things with their time. This is the same reason one would pay a housekeeper or a personal chef.

Yes, I agree with you that caring for one's own children is not considered paid employment. I was responding more to the wording of the one particular post and the person questioning why taking care of children and doing household duties is considered "work". It's not paid work, but it feel it has value. I do understand those that are saying they hold employment but also have to do "everything" that a SAHP does also. I agree that bills still have to be paid, meals made, and so forth. I work part time though, and on days that I work outside the home, I cannot say that I do "everything" I do on the days when I am off. On the outside employment days, I have to hire help or have my parents help to take my kids to and from school, or pay someone to watch them if they are off school, get someone to come in and walk the dog, and many times I also order dinner out rather than cook on those days. I also can't be in two places at once--I can't volunteer on the same days I am working outside the home. I believe volunteer work benefits society as much as my paid employment.

What I am saying is that working in paid jobs is difficult and valuable and contributes to society, but I also think that those who stay home with their kids are making a contribution to society too. If someone has enough money to stay home, and wants to have those extra hours caring for their kids, helping with after school homework, and making the evenings and weekends less stressful by having shopping, cleaning, and errands done during the week, I think that is great also.

Really, if anyone is working a paid job or staying home with the kids, and your kids are being loved, fed, clothed, and are being taught to be kind and productive citizens, then you are doing a fabulous job! Not every child in this world is loved and cared for. If anyone has seen documentaries on kids who are not loved and nurtured, and have seen kids who have failure to thrive or have RAD, I think anyone can see that loving and nurturing a child has value and importance--both working parents and SAHPs can provide this love. I just don't understand why we need to knock either choice. I don't think any working parents are leaving their babies and toddlers home to change their own diapers, feed their own bottles, or entertain themselves, I think you have to pay someone to do those things. If a parent wants to stay home and do those things instead of paying someone else, does that make them less important than the nanny or daycare worker you are hiring to do that during your working hours? I think hat is a valuable job, and I also think you deserve a pat on the back if you are working as a doctor, lawyer, teacher, or whatever, and juggling all that along with managing the needs of your home and children, whether you pay someone to help out with those things or you come home and get it all done after work. Good job to everyone doing what you have to do to get by, or what makes you and your family happiest and most fulfilled