Splitting long runs

[stitchfan18]

I've read a couple articles about splitting long runs during marathon training, but I'm curious to hear how doing that worked out for runners during the marathon. My goal for my first marathon is to finish, but I also don't want to hit the wall super early on. I do plan to do some long runs in their entirety, but I have two weekends that I have long runs scheduled the same day as a 1/2. I've thought about moving the long runs, but with my schedule this summer they really fit best on those weekends, and if anything it would work best for me to push my first long run forward a week, and my second long run back a week. That would leave my June weekend mileage looking like the following: 13.1, 16, 18, 13.1. I'm afraid that would be too many miles without rest for me. Any suggestions? Should I split my 16 and 18 miles long runs up and run the 1/2 in the morning before going out later that day to finish the extra 3-5 miles?

 

[johde]

I don't know about splitting long runs but, I was listening to Jeff Galloway a couple of weeks ago and he recommended walking the first mile or 2 before finishing up the distance in his case run/walk. So on the 16 mile weekend you could walk 2 then run 16. You would then be on track to do your 18 mile weekend.

 

[fashionista311]

What about if you got to the race early, ran like 3 easy miles, and then ran the half? Sure you'll have some time between finishing the 3 miles and getting to the corral (especially if it's a larger race) but I think that would be more beneficial then I think splitting the runs entirely.

I'm really not a marathon expert - I've only run one and it was bit of a disappointing result (but I have lots of reasons why...read here if you're interested). I think if you split one or two runs over the course of 18 weeks I don't think that's necessarily bad...but you should plan on running it straight through for another week.

As far as walking 2 miles, and then running 16, and calling it a 18-miler run? Sure, if that's what part of your race day plan. But if your goal is to run the whole race...then I think you need to run 18 miles.

Good luck!

 

[timmac]

What is the date of your target marathon? Perhaps we can help you piece together a modified training plan that fits in your already scheduled halves.

For your first marathon, I'd be against splitting the long runs. You'll want at least one solid run of at least 18, if not 20 miles.

 

[stitchfan18]

The marathon is August 28th. I do have a 20 miler scheduled 4 weeks before the race that I plan to run in its entirety. Would it be ill advised to do a 20 miler with my longest straight run before that being only 14-15 miles?

 

[fashionista311]

The marathon is August 28th. I do have a 20 miler scheduled 4 weeks before the race that I plan to run in its entirety. Would it be ill advised to do a 20 miler with my longest straight run before that being only 14-15 miles?

again I'm not the expert...but I would you should run a 16 and 18 straight through before attempting 20. I think it was when I hit runs of 16+ that I started experiencing the true "wall". (Yes you can bonk in shorter distances...but hitting the wall is totally different). One would think that I would of listened to my body and tweaked the nutrition a bit on the run (which I think was definitely a problem for me) ..but I was stubborn/dumb and didn't...so of course I hit the wall during the actual race.

Also - I know a lot of plans call for only 1 20, especially for a beginner marathon plan...but if you are trying to hit a certain goal time, I really don't think it's enough. I really wanted to break 5 hours for my first, and with a HM of 2:08 at the time, I certainly thought it was well-within reach for me. But a combination of low mileage, poor nutrition, and an injury prevented me from that and I ended up finishing in 5:04. I've been slowly driving myself nuts over the past few months, thinking what I did wrong, and how I can fix it for this year.

Someone once said that training for a marathon is like one giant experiment - you just have to throw a bunch of chemicals together, stir the pot, and hope it comes out right. What doesn't work for one person, might work out perfect for the other.

 

[timmac]

Also - I know a lot of plans call for only 1 20, especially for a beginner marathon plan...but if you are trying to hit a certain goal time, I really don't think it's enough.

Keep in mind that when you're talking about a beginner plan for a first timer, the phrase "goal time" really shouldn't be much of a concern.

I really wanted to break 5 hours for my first, and with a HM of 2:08 at the time, I certainly thought it was well-within reach for me. But a combination of low mileage, poor nutrition, and an injury prevented me from that and I ended up finishing in 5:04. I've been slowly driving myself nuts over the past few months, thinking what I did wrong, and how I can fix it for this year.

I'd wager that poor nutrition and injury were much larger factors than the number or distance of long training runs.

At the pace you're talking about (which is very close to my pace... my best half and full are 2:11 and 4:57), a 20 mile run that lasts for four hours isn't all that much more helpful than a 16-18 mile run that lasts 3-3.5 hours. In fact, it may even be a recipe for injury.

Something I like doing, and your mileage may vary (sorry for the pun), is to run 10-12 miles on back-to-back days. I found this helped me greatly to get used to running on tired legs. This isn't to say there weren't a few runs in the 16-18 range as well, of course.

I've also found that most beginner marathon plans really only are designed to get you to finish the race. Pushing yourself harder--again, in my experience-- requires upping the mileage to more like 45-50 miles a week.

 

[stitchfan18]

Keep in mind that when you're talking about a beginner plan for a first timer, the phrase "goal time" really shouldn't be much of a concern.



I'd wager that poor nutrition and injury were much larger factors than the number or distance of long training runs.

At the pace you're talking about (which is very close to my pace... my best half and full are 2:11 and 4:57), a 20 mile run that lasts for four hours isn't all that much more helpful than a 16-18 mile run that lasts 3-3.5 hours. In fact, it may even be a recipe for injury.

Something I like doing, and your mileage may vary (sorry for the pun), is to run 10-12 miles on back-to-back days. I found this helped me greatly to get used to running on tired legs. This isn't to say there weren't a few runs in the 16-18 range as well, of course.

I've also found that most beginner marathon plans really only are designed to get you to finish the race. Pushing yourself harder--again, in my experience-- requires upping the mileage to more like 45-50 miles a week.

Thanks for all the info! I'm definitely going in with a mentality that I want to simply finish the race, and not worry about my time. My best half to date is a 2:10, so it sounds like I should at least be expecting to run for 5 hours on race day.

 

[johde]

As far as walking 2 miles, and then running 16, and calling it a 18-miler run? Sure, if that's what part of your race day plan. But if your goal is to run the whole race...then I think you need to run 18 miles.

I should have been more clear, Galloway's walk 2, then run strategy is part of getting caught back up/ not getting behind in your plan. My point was getting all 16 miles in at once would probably be better than doing 13 in the morning and 3 in the evening and calling it 16. I could agree your longest runs should be done entirely the way you plan on racing.

The marathon is August 28th. I do have a 20 miler scheduled 4 weeks before the race that I plan to run in its entirety. Would it be ill advised to do a 20 miler with my longest straight run before that being only 14-15 miles?

I've never done a marathon so please take this with a grain of salt, so borrowing heavily from Coach Jenny Hadfield's marathon plan "Marathoning for Mortals". What you've given us in black, working backward from ther one option in red would be. This might not be what you want to do, but this gives you an idea of what you could do. I would set out the calendar, put in the dates "set in stone", the 3 races, then work from there to put in the remaining long runs. Taking into consideration if you are running either of the halfs hard you'll need a down week for recovery.

Aug 27 - Race
Aug 20 - Taper
Aug 13 - Taper
Aug 6 - 20 mile
July 30 - Cut back
July 23 - 20 Mi
July 16 - Cut back
July 9 - 18 Mile
July 2 - Race Recovery
June 25- Half Marathon
June 18 - 16 mile
June 11 - Race Recovery
June 4 - Half Marathon

 

[fashionista311]

Keep in mind that when you're talking about a beginner plan for a first timer, the phrase "goal time" really shouldn't be much of a concern.

Depending on where the first-timer is coming from, I respectfully disagree. I myself had "A", "B", and "C" goals. my "A" goal (the one that you keep secretly in the back of your head that you don't really tell anyone) was 4:45. My "B" goal was to break 5 hours. My "C" goal was to finish in one piece. Sure I didn't hit my A and B goals...but you know what? If I didn't set them, I probably would of caved into my aching, burning knee and came in at 5:30, maybe 6 hours. And by missing those first two goals, it gave me a drive to work that much harder this year....so I know I can hit them the second time around. Of course if the first-timer (or anyone, really) only truly cares about finishing, that's totally cool, too. That's what's so great about this sport...it's all so personal, and 35,000 people can be at a starting line...each hoping to get something different out of the journey. But I don't think it's ever a bad thing to have time goals in the back of your head. But then again...I'm a very type a, goal orientated type person...and have been beating myself up over my marathon debut since last November. So you all can take what you want from my opinions

I'd wager that poor nutrition and injury were much larger factors than the number or distance of long training runs.

At the pace you're talking about (which is very close to my pace... my best half and full are 2:11 and 4:57), a 20 mile run that lasts for four hours isn't all that much more helpful than a 16-18 mile run that lasts 3-3.5 hours. In fact, it may even be a recipe for injury.

Something I like doing, and your mileage may vary (sorry for the pun), is to run 10-12 miles on back-to-back days. I found this helped me greatly to get used to running on tired legs. This isn't to say there weren't a few runs in the 16-18 range as well, of course.

I've also found that most beginner marathon plans really only are designed to get you to finish the race. Pushing yourself harder--again, in my experience-- requires upping the mileage to more like 45-50 miles a week.

Well when you use Daniels formula (which has been pretty damn accurate for me for any other distance BESIDES the marathon) if you pump in a 2:03 hm I got a 4:15 marathon if I'm not mistaken. While clearly half marathons aren't the best pace predictor for a marathon...I do believe it shows what your true potential could be in the race. Now, how to best reach your potential....well, that's anyone's guess. Most traditional plans call for a few different cycles, which will give you 3 20-22 miler runs. But what about those Hansen brothers? Their longest run is what? 16 miles? It sure worked for Desi in Boston.

I definitely agree that the injury played the biggest role more than anything. And I relied on sport beans for my food during the race- the whole pack is only 100 cals, and I definitely did not each a whole pack each hour. Ive switched to Cliff Shot Blocks which are 3/100 calories...and I believe Cliff is higher quality nutrition in general (I'm a big fan of organic when possible) But, I've been hearing from alot of marathon vets that what alot of beginners perceive as "hitting the wall" is actually more like bonking, because they don't have the endurance required to push on through. I have heard your 3/3.5 hour rule before - but not sure if I agree with it. I've had to the chance to pick the brains of a few pretty-well renowned coaches...and none of them ever discouraged me from completing the full 20er last year. Plus, if running 20 miles at a slower, training pace at 20 miles is a recipe for injury...what does that say about trying to run 26.2 miles at a faster goal pace?

I do completely agree with you that most beginner plans do only get you to the finish, and you need to peak at 40-50+ miles if you have ambitious goals

I've said it before - training for a marathon is like playing a big mad scientist experiment. You throw a bunch of chemicals in a pot and hope it works and doesn't blow up in your face. What works great for you might explode for me, and might be ok for someone else.

And again these are just my opinions - I'm entitled to mine - and you are certainly entitled to yours. And the great thing about this board is that we can all share our thoughts...and maybe we can each take something away from each other that will make us both faster and stronger in the end. </cue end of cheese, corny music>

 

[John VN]

I am not a believer of splitting or never doing the complete race distance before an event. I felt more at ease having walked a couple of training marathons before my first full race marathon which was this year's Goofy Challenge. Training as I did allowed me to walk a 2:20 split at the 1/2M mark and finish the full in 4:56 with blisters and some bloody toes since I never pushed it that hard. Since I completed the fulls in training I knew I would not have a 26.2 mile distance problem but my goal was to finish in under 5:00hrs.

My goal for the 2012 Goofy Full is to finish under 4:30 and as of now my 1/2M walking time is 2:06:16. I expect to be under 2:00 for a 1/2 by July and then I will ramp up my distance to 26.2 miles and 4:30 by October with a relaxed full M in Dec.

I have only been training since January 2010 and will soon be 61yo but I have an excellent grasp of my body and its capabilities from years of bicycling so my own training schedule suites me far better than any of the PROFESSIONAL schedules.

If you don't know your own capabilities, you will have to rely on advice from others, just remember, you are the one who will suffer injury if you don't listen to your body.

Good luck