Sorcerer pass wirh no blue card?

[Brian Noble]

But it is obvious that parks have decided to allow all to get it not matter what DVD says.

I don't think this is a decision so much as (a) they depend on individual CMs to implement the rule for in-person purchases rather than do it programmatically and (b) it's really hard to train CMs on every detail of their jobs consistently, especially right now with lots of turnover throughout the service sector. Add to that the First Rule of Guest Services in the Disney Playbook ("Never say no to a guest if you can avoid it.") and it's easy to see how this happens.

It seems clear to me that if I were an owner who did not have a qualified ownership and was not a FL resident, I would not be entitled to buy any AP other than the Incredi-pass. The fact that some CMs sell them anyway doesn't change that. If the online ticketing system (which DVC does not control) allowed it, that would be more indicative of a decision by the Parks division. But, AFAIK, this only happens in person--that to me is more indicative of a systems/training issue.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't think this is a decision so much as (a) they depend on individual CMs to implement the rule for in-person purchases rather than do it programmatically and (b) it's really hard to train CMs on every detail of their jobs consistently, especially right now with lots of turnover throughout the service sector. Add to that the First Rule of Guest Services in the Disney Playbook ("Never say no to a guest if you can avoid it.") and it's easy to see how this happens.

It seems clear to me that if I were an owner who did not have a qualified ownership and was not a FL resident, I would not be entitled to buy any AP other than the Incredi-pass. The fact that some CMs sell them anyway doesn't change that. If the online ticketing system (which DVC does not control) allowed it, that would be more indicative of a decision by the Parks division. But, AFAIK, this only happens in person--that to me is more indicative of a systems/training issue.

True but we are almost at 6 weeks in. Very easy to have something sent to all CMs or departments to explain the rules.

I am sure DVD is aware. Now ,as I have said I do wonder if the new digital cards will be changed to note this more clearly.

But in the end, I agree it’s up to a CM Just too many reports of people getting there when they didn’t before for it not to have become a policy allowed to be approved.

Ideally, if they want to enforce it, it seems like they could find a way by either flagging the number or adding the notation to white cards that say not eligible for discounts.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Called today to see about buying Sorcerer's passes as I am a white card owner, and had no issues at all. I would think if as they look at my account that if a blue card was required, they would mention it then.

Who did you call? Member services, or Disney Ticketing? Lol, i don't understand why there are so many posts of people calling with no problem but every time I've tried I've struck out.

 

[Brett Wyman]

I don't think this is a decision so much as (a) they depend on individual CMs to implement the rule for in-person purchases rather than do it programmatically and (b) it's really hard to train CMs on every detail of their jobs consistently, especially right now with lots of turnover throughout the service sector. Add to that the First Rule of Guest Services in the Disney Playbook ("Never say no to a guest if you can avoid it.") and it's easy to see how this happens.

It seems clear to me that if I were an owner who did not have a qualified ownership and was not a FL resident, I would not be entitled to buy any AP other than the Incredi-pass. The fact that some CMs sell them anyway doesn't change that. If the online ticketing system (which DVC does not control) allowed it, that would be more indicative of a decision by the Parks division. But, AFAIK, this only happens in person--that to me is more indicative of a systems/training issue.

I mentioned this in another thread about this topic, we are a family of four white card only DVC members, who now have the DVC platinum pass. This was back in June so they still say Platinum. We didn't try to get away with anything as we are very aware of the policy. Both the AP reinstatement team, the DVC phone guest services team, and the CM at guest services at Epcot INSISTED we were eligible with me telling them I don't think so. So it may be a lack of training with so many new CMS but after talking to so many different teams and getting the same answer it makes me think it must be a change in policy. Even if it's just a temporary unwritten one. Next June will be interesting for sure.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Talk about Occam's Razor.

DVD reaches out to the other divisions, in this case Parks/Ticketing, and asks for deals and discounts they can offer to DVC members. They don't pay for those benefits provided by the other divisions, so we'll assume the premise is that more DVC owners visiting parks more often equals more revenue for the Mouse. Just as we all have in our contract's MEAPS specific language allowing DVD to add or remove benefits (perks) without notice (These incidental benefits are subject to change or termination without notice...), it stands to reason that any other divisions offering unilateral benefits to DVD can do the same within the definitions of their relationships with DVD.

The simplest explanation is that Parks/Ticketing decided to offer AP's to all DVC members. The AP's belong to them, not DVD, and they ultimately have the right to stop offering the benefit to DVD entirely, or offer the discounted AP's to anyone they choose.

Now I don't disagree that there has been a ton of misinformation and mixed messaging, all of which does suggest some poor communication to the cast members, if not poor training, but the idea that the Parks division simply decided to, unilaterally, start offering discounted AP's to any DVC member may just be as simple as that: they just decided to.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Talk about Occam's Razor.

DVD reaches out to the other divisions, in this case Parks/Ticketing, and asks for deals and discounts they can offer to DVC members. They don't pay for those benefits provided by the other divisions, so we'll assume the premise is that more DVC owners visiting parks more often equals more revenue for the Mouse. Just as we all have in our contract's MEAPS specific language allowing DVD to add or remove benefits (perks) without notice (These incidental benefits are subject to change or termination without notice...), it stands to reason that any other divisions offering unilateral benefits to DVD can do the same within the definitions of their relationships with DVD.

The simplest explanation is that Parks/Ticketing decided to offer AP's to all DVC members. The AP's belong to them, not DVD, and they ultimately have the right to stop offering the benefit to DVD entirely, or offer the discounted AP's to anyone they choose.

Now I don't disagree that there has been a ton of misinformation and mixed messaging, all of which does suggest some poor communication to the cast members, if not poor training, but the idea that the Parks division simply decided to, unilaterally, start offering discounted AP's to any DVC member may just be as simple as that: they just decided to.

If offering AP’s to more people mean “more money to the mouse”, than why not off them to everyone?

 

[DonMacGregor]

If offering AP’s to more people mean “more money to the mouse”, than why not off them to everyone?

I’m going to assume you’re serious, because offering a discount to “everyone” is effectively just lowering the price of an AP. But to answer your question, they do offer them to everyone. At regular price.
I can only imagine the whining of biblical proportions if every human being on earth was offered an AP at the same price as a blue card DVC member.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I’m going to assume you’re serious, because offering a discount to “everyone” is effectively just lowering the price of an AP. But to answer your question, they do offer them to everyone. At regular price.
I can only imagine the whining of biblical proportions if every human being on earth was offered an AP at the same price as a blue card DVC member.

Yes, I am serious, but only responding to your statement. Paraphrasing, you said “the more visitors, the more money to the mouse”, and implied discounted AP’s would accomplish that.
Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

 

[DonMacGregor]

Yes, I am serious, but only responding to your statement. Paraphrasing, you said “the more visitors, the more money to the mouse”, and implied discounted AP’s would accomplish that.
Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

I guess you did.

Parks has obviously identified a guest profile and spending pattern consistent with DVC owners that is appealing to them. Whether it is total or average dollars spent, duration of stay, spending habits, etc. They like offering the AP discount to DVC. Otherwise the offer would be constricted, not expanded.

Expanding the AP offering to a wider base of guests who likely substantially (or more likely precisely) matches that pre-identified spending profile makes sense.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Obviously.

Parks has obviously identified a guest profile and spending pattern consistent with DVC owners that is appealing to them. Whether it is total or average dollars spent, duration of stay, spending habits, etc. They like offering the AP discount to DVC. Otherwise the offer would be constricted, not expanded.

Expanding the AP offering to a wider base of guests who likely substantially (or more likely precisely) matches that pre-identified spending profile makes sense.

But if they offered lower priced AP’s to everyone, would that not entice them to visit more often and spend more money?

JMO, but I don’t think availability of the Sorcerer pass for DVC members is meant to get them in the parks. It’s my opinion, for the most part, they will visit the parks regardless.
On the other hand, it just might entice the non member from Ohio to visit again.

 

[Jwaire]

I upgraded my 7-day park hopper this evening to an annual pass and happened to get a senior ticketing manager. She had been with Disney for years. I asked her about this (in casual conversation—we discussed a lot of random things like Sorcerer Pass blackout date upgrades, Park Pass problems, etc. while I was waiting) and she said that their system just shows if you are a DVC member (my take was this was from your MDX profile) and you may purchase the Sorcerer Pass if you are designated as such in your profile.

So, take that as a grain of salt. YMMV.

They've had weeks to fix this. I don't know if this is one of the reasons they're not offering a DVC discount on the IncrediPass or what, but ticketing will sell you a Sorcerer Pass at least as of today. The same thing happened this summer at ShopDisney for resale members and has been happening since Mobile Ordering has been available. The discount for mobile orders has automatically been applied for resale members for months.

Also—not this topic, but despite what DVC Member Services says, they're not going to let you upgrade your park hopper to a Sorcerer Pass during a blackout date (like they did with Gold) and they are still price bridging (but they don't call it that.).

 

[DonMacGregor]

But if they offered lower priced AP’s to everyone, would that not entice them to visit more often and spend more money?

JMO, but I don’t think availability of the Sorcerer pass for DVC members is meant to get them in the parks. It’s my opinion, for the most part, they will visit the parks regardless.
On the other hand, it just might entice the non member from Ohio to visit again.

Again, it’s likely that Disney has identified spending patterns in DVC owners that they find appealing. Just selling cheap AP’s to anyone and everyone doesn’t help them any, if they’re giving up profit on the front end (AP sales revenue) and not making any back up on the back end (food, merch, etc).

One only need look at Disneyland to see what happens when you make AP’s too inexpensive and accessible: you get a park filled with people who spent less on their pass, and spend next to nothing once inside. Disney has INCREASED AP prices, and is actively throttling back AP attendance via the reservation system. Now, So Cal is an extreme example, because the vast majority of AP’s were locals who could pop in for an hour just to watch a parade 4 nights a week, but the principle is the same.

With DVC owners, you have a group that potentially visits more often and for longer stays than the average cash hotel guest. After Florida residents, who already receive discounted AP’s, DVC owners are the next most likely group to visit more often and spend more money.

Make that AP cheaper for DVC guests, who you know are already on property, and entice them to spend fewer resort days or days at Sea World and Universal, and get them in the parks spending cash.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I upgraded my 7-day park hopper this evening to an annual pass and happened to get a senior ticketing manager. She had been with Disney for years. I asked her about this (in casual conversation—we discussed a lot of random things like Sorcerer Pass blackout date upgrades, Park Pass problems, etc. while I was waiting) and she said that their system just shows if you are a DVC member (my take was this was from your MDX profile) and you may purchase the Sorcerer Pass if you are designated as such in your profile.

Have no fear, someone will be along to tell you she’s wrong, she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, she hasn’t really been with ticketing that long, yadda yadda yadda.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Again, it’s likely that Disney has identified spending patterns in DVC owners that they find appealing. Just selling cheap AP’s to anyone and everyone doesn’t help them any, if they’re giving up profit on the front end (AP sales revenue) and not making any back up on the back end (food, merch, etc).

One only need look at Disneyland to see what happens when you make AP’s too inexpensive and accessible: you get a park filled with people who spent less on their pass, and spend next to nothing once inside. Disney has INCREASED AP prices, and is actively throttling back AP attendance via the reservation system. Now, So Cal is an extreme example, because the vast majority of AP’s were locals who could pop in for an hour just to watch a parade 4 nights a week, but the principle is the same.

With DVC owners, you have a group that potentially visits more often and for longer stays than the average cash hotel guest. After Florida residents, who already receive discounted AP’s, DVC owners are the next most likely group to visit more often and spend more money.

Make that AP cheaper for DVC guests, who you know are already on property, and entice them to spend fewer resort days or days at Sea World and Universal, and get them in the parks spending cash.

True, but in your DLR example, those folks probably were visiting 50-100 days a year. Of course they will not buy the trinkets every visit.
That may not be the case with the non member who is enticed to visit a second time during the year.
There are also folks like me. I used to live 20 min from WDW. My wife and I had Epcot after 4 passes, and roughly once a week went in for dinner. Truly, the only reason we had the pass was to spend money in the park, whether it be a restaurant, or F&W festival booths. I don’t think DLR ever had an equivalent type pass, but I could be wrong.

 

[Leight19]

Again, it’s likely that Disney has identified spending patterns in DVC owners that they find appealing. Just selling cheap AP’s to anyone and everyone doesn’t help them any, if they’re giving up profit on the front end (AP sales revenue) and not making any back up on the back end (food, merch, etc).

One only need look at Disneyland to see what happens when you make AP’s too inexpensive and accessible: you get a park filled with people who spent less on their pass, and spend next to nothing once inside. Disney has INCREASED AP prices, and is actively throttling back AP attendance via the reservation system. Now, So Cal is an extreme example, because the vast majority of AP’s were locals who could pop in for an hour just to watch a parade 4 nights a week, but the principle is the same.

With DVC owners, you have a group that potentially visits more often and for longer stays than the average cash hotel guest. After Florida residents, who already receive discounted AP’s, DVC owners are the next most likely group to visit more often and spend more money.

Make that AP cheaper for DVC guests, who you know are already on property, and entice them to spend fewer resort days or days at Sea World and Universal, and get them in the parks spending cash.

This is my thinking as well. Idk the reason why but it seems parks and ticketing must see value in all dvc members having annual passes even if it’s discounted. It may be related to guest spending patterns (similar to Florida discounts) or maybe they just don’t want to deal with hassle of having to sort who can and can’t get. Imo it’s similar with merchandise discounts as I wouldn’t be surprised if retailers get more money from dvc who have discounts then who don’t through increases spending.

I think the one group that has vested interest in continuing to push the narrative it’s blue card only is dvc. This is major perk of direct purchase and if parks and ticketing dont play ball it hamstrings dvc ability to pitch sales (unless they continue to say it’s blue card only despite being white card for weeks now). This actually very much mirrors dvc pitching annual pass benefits for over a year despite not being available so it fits their recent behavior as well. Until ticketing stops selling, white cards who purchase imo aren’t abusing loop holes or poor training they are getting what has been decided, it’s just against wishes of dvc sales team.

Edit to add: didnt the official the official statement from ticketing describing annual passes even just say dvc and mention of blue card was added later on dvc information?

 

[ScubaCat]

True but we are almost at 6 weeks in. Very easy to have something sent to all CMs or departments to explain the rules.

My wife was more or less accused of trying to steal a 10% discount at the emporium with a printout of the digital membership card over 3 months after they released that feature. These things don't get shared as quickly as you'd think. If it were a problem, they could easily lock out resale owners with a software solution (surely that would work perfectly the first time).

I worked at a Disney store oh so many years ago, and let me tell you this - there was literally no way to keep up with the updates. Even posted on the bulletin board we were supposed to read, there was never time to actually stop and read that while rushing to get on stage as quickly as possible since back in those days the stores were always overwhelmed with guests. (Think about mall crowds in the early 1990s.) Point is - even if communications did go out multiple times, it's going to take a while for it to trickle down to all the guest services cast.

I went to guest relations in disney springs a couple of weeks ago to activate my new sorcerer pass and get the new fancy mickey gold statue passholder card. The CM out front gave me mine but could NOT give me one for my wife (even though I had her yellow AP card) without her ID. He was friendly but firm on this point. He then informed me that there would be at least an hour wait to talk to someone for the activation there but that I could do the activation over at the ticketing office. That CM did the activation and... you'll never guess what he immediately did for me without hesitation when I asked for the fancy passholder card for my wife's AP?...

 

[Kim.chris2009]

I upgraded my 7-day park hopper this evening to an annual pass and happened to get a senior ticketing manager. She had been with Disney for years. I asked her about this (in casual conversation—we discussed a lot of random things like Sorcerer Pass blackout date upgrades, Park Pass problems, etc. while I was waiting) and she said that their system just shows if you are a DVC member (my take was this was from your MDX profile) and you may purchase the Sorcerer Pass if you are designated as such in your profile.

So, take that as a grain of salt. YMMV.

They've had weeks to fix this. I don't know if this is one of the reasons they're not offering a DVC discount on the IncrediPass or what, but ticketing will sell you a Sorcerer Pass at least as of today. The same thing happened this summer at ShopDisney for resale members and has been happening since Mobile Ordering has been available. The discount for mobile orders has automatically been applied for resale members for months.

Also—not this topic, but despite what DVC Member Services says, they're not going to let you upgrade your park hopper to a Sorcerer Pass during a blackout date (like they did with Gold) and they are still price bridging (but they don't call it that.).

Question.... If we have tickets for 12/28-1/2 and you want to upgrade your hopper to a Sorcerer and you wait to do it on 1/1 or 1/2 after the blackout dates, will you be able to do that? Just not upgrade on the actual blackout dates?

 

[Jwaire]

Question.... If we have tickets for 12/28-1/2 and you want to upgrade your hopper to a Sorcerer and you wait to do it on 1/1 or 1/2 after the blackout dates, will you be able to do that? Just not upgrade on the actual blackout dates?

I made them send me a written response:

"While you will be able to upgrade your ticket to an annual pass as long there is at least one day remaining on your ticket and it has yet to expire, you are correct that block-out dates do apply in this instance. Primarily, the ticket being upgraded must not have been used on a date when the upgraded Pass type was blocked-out. For example, a 4-Day Disney Theme Park Ticket that was redeemed on a Saturday cannot be upgraded to a Disney Pixie Dust Pass because that Pass product is not valid for admission on weekends. Likewise, a ticket that is redeemed anytime between 12/18/21 and 12/31/21 cannot be upgraded to a Disney Sorcerer Pass since the Disney Sorcerer Pass is blocked-out during that period.

While you do have the option of upgrading to a Disney Sorcerer Pass prior to 12/18/21, your Disney Sorcerer Pass will then not allow for access on 12/18 or 12/19 due to it's block out schedule. Sorry if this effects your plans. The only other options would be to not upgrade the ticket, or, plan on not visiting the parks on 12/18 or 12/19 if you do upgrade, or, upgrade to the Disney Incredi-Pass, which you've indicated is not your preference."

 

[RamblinWreck]

I made them send me a written response:

"While you will be able to upgrade your ticket to an annual pass as long there is at least one day remaining on your ticket and it has yet to expire, you are correct that block-out dates do apply in this instance. Primarily, the ticket being upgraded must not have been used on a date when the upgraded Pass type was blocked-out. For example, a 4-Day Disney Theme Park Ticket that was redeemed on a Saturday cannot be upgraded to a Disney Pixie Dust Pass because that Pass product is not valid for admission on weekends. Likewise, a ticket that is redeemed anytime between 12/18/21 and 12/31/21 cannot be upgraded to a Disney Sorcerer Pass since the Disney Sorcerer Pass is blocked-out during that period.

While you do have the option of upgrading to a Disney Sorcerer Pass prior to 12/18/21, your Disney Sorcerer Pass will then not allow for access on 12/18 or 12/19 due to it's block out schedule. Sorry if this effects your plans. The only other options would be to not upgrade the ticket, or, plan on not visiting the parks on 12/18 or 12/19 if you do upgrade, or, upgrade to the Disney Incredi-Pass, which you've indicated is not your preference."

That's annoying, but it really makes sense.

People would game that system to no end if you could get an annual pass with blackout dates, but still actually visit the parks during the blackout period.

 

[Jwaire]

That's annoying, but it really makes sense.

People would game that system to no end if you could get an annual pass with blackout dates, but still actually visit the parks during the blackout period.

I disagree. The vast majority of annual passholders are Flordia residents that don't visit the parks during busy times anyway. This mostly applies to a limited set of guests—most of them likely being DVC members that happen to be traveling during a blackout period when annual passes weren't on sale when they booked their trip—and want an annual pass for whatever reason (discounts, ability to buy special Merch, special turnstile entrance, parking, status, etc.) but won't use it to its full advantage (We don't live near the parks.).

They've also allowed ticket upgrades to Gold for years during blackout dates, and they sure don't seem to be worried about who qualifies to purchase a Sorcerer Pass.

Not to mention, this is the first year the entire week of Thanksgiving is effected.

In the end, I decided, for this year, I wanted to be a passholder. There's always the ability to downgrade next year. And this is the first 12 month period where I plan on making three trips to World. That's a little unusual for us.