Skyliner stroller red tag capacity limited ADA discrimination

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

Please don't give him any more free lessons.

There’s no lesson there

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

Yeah, like you in here trying to sidestep ethics rules against solicitation to find a plaintiff for your half-baked theory

There is no solicitation of clients happening here. If you read the original post it stated “If this policy has negatively impacted anyone we highly recommend filing with the Florida Commission on Human Resources. If enough people speak up and engage Disney they should be able to recognize that their policy is discriminatory.”

Not once was it suggested to reach out to us or anything similar. It was explicitly stated what to do and that process did not provide us with any monies.

 

[NaptownMom]

There is no solicitation of clients happening here.

Yeah that’s what “sidestep” means

 

[NaptownMom]

Are the two wheelchair users transferring from their wheelchairs or remaining in them?

The question is, is it a violation of ADA to break up groups of family due to capacity policies related to users of mobility devices, whether motorized or otherwise? And the answer is, no. It is permissible to establish capacity limits for users of mobility devices. At least on roller coasters. This is a very unhelpful fact for your theory, which is funny since you’re the one who brought it up.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

The question is, is it a violation of ADA to break up groups of family due to capacity policies related to users of mobility devices, whether motorized or otherwise? And the answer is, no. It is permissible to establish capacity limits for users of mobility devices. At least on roller coasters. This is a very unhelpful fact for your theory, which is funny since you’re the one who brought it up.

Please read this ADA case against Disney world that demonstrates you are incorrect. Citation: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2012/07/20/baughmanopinion.pdf

i did not bring up space mountain.

Against please read that case. There is a major legal difference between ECV’s and other electronic devices and manually powered mobility devices.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12182

“(ii)Participation in unequal benefit
It shall be discriminatory to afford an individual or class of individuals, on the basis of adisability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements with the opportunity to participate in or benefit from a good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation that is not equal to that afforded to other individuals.”

We beleive that when it comes to electric and motorized mobility devices then Disney does have the ability to limit the capacity due to weight issues.

I’m asking for the citation of where Disney described the use of red tags outside of rides. You keep insisting that it is for the Skyliner and every other poster here says that isn’t true. I’m wondering if you have a way to prove them wrong.

I have no first hand knowledge because we only had to use a red tag once (combination of in-room gymnastics accident and mom-fail).

 

[Goldelpack]

Agree. I just realized who this person is from a prior post and no good will come of this conversation.

OH yeah.. that silly thread!! bus vs scooter unloading
However just to stay on this post -- IF the policy was that Disney would accomodate only 6 members of a red tag group AND the remaining guests had to go home - yes, that would be discrimination. For the sake of comfort, who would want 10 people in the gondola? With my scooter the most that can sit comfortably is 4 plus me on the scooter. Everyone else can hop into the next car within 90 seconds or less

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

I’m asking for the citation of where Disney described the use of red tags outside of rides. You keep insisting that it is for the Skyliner and every other poster here says that isn’t true. I’m wondering if you have a way to prove them wrong.

I have no first hand knowledge because we only had to use a red tag once (combination of in-room gymnastics accident and mom-fail).

You can get the stroller as wheelchair red tags at Disney Springs. They are not a park exclusive item.

 

[lanejudy]

It’s not constantly enforced, that’s the issue. It’s only enforced maybe one 1 of 10-20 times. This those few times it is enforced can be quite difficult especially if someone went a few days without it being enforced.

So the rule is 6+stroller but not always enforced. I agree inconsistent enforcement absolutely causes issues. There are all sorts of times a party has to split at WDW, sometimes for disability accommodations sometimes for other reasons. DAS is limited to +3. I guess you’d argue that needs to be expanded to a full party of 10 because non-disabled can be a larger party. Disney is prepared for that argument.

The cheap all plastic strollers cannot be tied down but a good quality stroller that contains metal at the important parts is able to be tied down on the bus.

This tells me that you know next to nothing about tying down a stroller for bus transport. Even a “good quality” stroller (is there such a thing as a “cheap all plastic” stroller?) is NOT strong enough to withstand a bus crash force; it will collapse and/or suffer damage, potentially injuring the child. A transit-ready package adds ~$600 to the cost of a $2400 Convaid Cruiser. If it wasn’t necessary why would anyone pay extra.

If the stroller is a true special need stroller then it would not need the tag, again in this situation we are just focusing on strollers with the tag that are the same as others.

Really? Several of us here have different experience. Can you tell if this is special needs or regular?

Again in this situation described it’s the same stroller, hence the discrimination with the cabin capacity numbers.

WDW CMs can’t be deciding “same” stroller between parties. Rules are rules. And you agreed above that the rule is 6+stroller, just not well enforced. No discrimination.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

OH yeah.. that silly thread!! bus vs scooter unloading
However just to stay on this post -- IF the policy was that Disney would accomodate only 6 members of a red tag group AND the remaining guests had to go home - yes, that would be discrimination. For the sake of comfort, who would want 10 people in the gondola? With my scooter the most that can sit comfortably is 4 plus me on the scooter. Everyone else can hop into the next car within 90 seconds or less

Disney is completely in the right legally to limit the capacity of people using scooters. The ten people also all don’t have to be adults there can be kids which take up less space. Ten people take up different amounts of space.

 

[NaptownMom]

Please read this ADA case against Disney world that demonstrates you are incorrect. Citation: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2012/07/20/baughmanopinion.pdf

i did not bring up space mountain.

Against please read that case. There is a major legal difference between ECV’s and other electronic devices and manually powered mobility devices.

Ok, read it. It says what I already understood the law to say: there is no requirement to allow groups of 10 to stay together. One companion being next to a wheelchair user in a theatre frankly very obviously cuts against you here—no requirement to accommodate a row of 10, and in fact movie theatres would in fact require a party with a wheelchair user to use more rows than one without. Also, as your authority explains on page 10, safety concerns are a valid reason to inflict a different experience than those not using a mobility device. Which it might shock you to remember was my point from the jump.

 

[lanejudy]

You can get the stroller as wheelchair red tags at Disney Springs. They are not a park exclusive item.

Yes you can, at Guest Relations. That doesn’t mean it has any bearing at DS. You can also activate an AP or buy tickets at DS however tickets are ONLY needed to enter a park.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

So the rule is 6+stroller but not always enforced. I agree inconsistent enforcement absolutely causes issues. There are all sorts of times a party has to split at WDW, sometimes for disability accommodations sometimes for other reasons. DAS is limited to +3. I guess you’d argue that needs to be expanded to a full party of 10 because non-disabled can be a larger party. Disney is prepared for that argument.


This tells me that you know next to nothing about tying down a stroller for bus transport. Even a “good quality” stroller (is there such a thing as a “cheap all plastic” stroller?) is NOT strong enough to withstand a bus crash force; it will collapse and/or suffer damage, potentially injuring the child. A transit-ready package adds ~$600 to the cost of a $2400 Convaid Cruiser. If it wasn’t necessary why would anyone pay extra.


Really? Several of us here have different experience. Can you tell if this is special needs or regular?
View attachment 972380


WDW CMs can’t be deciding “same” stroller between parties. Rules are rules. And you agreed above that the rule is 6+stroller, just not well enforced. No discrimination.

We are not making any DAS related arguments right now, and haven’t done any research into that so i can’t comment on that argument. But yes inconsistency does cause issues. We aren’t saying the party can never be split up. What we are saying is that in this case the party is being split up for an unacceptable reason due to a policy based issue.

You are right, I can’t tell, I just remember seeing some that looked different but again I’m not well versed in all types of strollers.

Walt Disney world can ask, if that stroller manually powered or electronic, and then base the capacity based on that. That is what the policy should be, but instead Disney just lumps all mobility devices together which is where the issue arises from.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

Ok, read it. It says what I already understood the law to say: there is no requirement to allow groups of 10 to stay together. One companion being next to a wheelchair user in a theatre frankly very obviously cuts against you here—no requirement to accommodate a row of 10, and in fact movie theatres would in fact require a party with a wheelchair user to use more rows than one without. Also, as your authority explains on page 10, safety concerns are a valid reason to inflict a different experience than those not using a mobility device. Which it might shock you to remember was my point from the jump.

Yes we agree that safety concerns are a situation. But here there are no safety concerns from the device because that same device is used regularly in cabins that have a capacity of up to ten people.

The case makes a clear distinction between manual and electronic devices.

 

[NaptownMom]

Yes we agree that safety concerns are a situation. But here there are no safety concerns from the device because that same device is used regularly in cabins that have a capacity of up to ten people.

The case makes a clear distinction between manual and electronic devices.

That is your ASSUMPTION. You have offered no authority whatsoever to support your assumption there is no safety concern for SAW as a population. I think most people with their thinking caps on can see that for many SAW users there are safety concerns with overcrowded gondolas in a variety of circumstances, including but not limited to emergency situations. And I’m confident you’ll find no policy from Reedy Creek Fire Department supporting your assumptions.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

That is your ASSUMPTION. You have offered no authority whatsoever to support your assumption there is no safety concern for SAW as a population. I think most people with their thinking caps on can see that for many SAW users there are safety concerns with overcrowded gondolas in a variety of circumstances, including but not limited to emergency situations. And I’m confident you’ll find no policy from Reedy Creek Fire Department supporting your assumptions.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-28/chapter-I/part-36/subpart-C/section-36.301
“A public accommodation may impose legitimate safety requirements that are necessary for safe operation. Safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.”

Again you are making speculations, stereotypes, and generalization based on what you think about people with disabilities. This is explicitly against the law which was just cited. Reedy creek does not have a policy on this, which is correct. Maybe you should put on your thinking cap and read and actually try and understand the ADA law as it is something that will touch many peoples lives at one point or another.

 

[NaptownMom]

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-28/chapter-I/part-36/subpart-C/section-36.301
“A public accommodation may impose legitimate safety requirements that are necessary for safe operation. Safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.”

Again you are making speculations, stereotypes, and generalization based on what you think about people with disabilities. This is explicitly against the law which was just cited. Reedy creek does not have a policy on this, which is correct. Maybe you should put on your thinking cap and read and actually try and understand the ADA law as it is something that will touch many peoples lives at one point or another.

I think it’s obvious, not speculative, that overcrowding a SAW user is a safety concern, to the point I really wonder if you know anything about the population of SAW users & why they need SAW past the tip of your own nose. I am totally sure you have no reason to think your personal SAW use could ever be different than a user without mobility or equipment issues, but maybe spending more time understanding who needs SAW and why would help you not embarrass yourself filing this one.

 

[lanejudy]

We are not making any DAS related arguments right now, and haven’t done any research into that so i can’t comment on that argument. But yes inconsistency does cause issues. We aren’t saying the party can never be split up. What we are saying is that in this case the party is being split up for an unacceptable reason due to a policy based issue.

You are right, I can’t tell, I just remember seeing some that looked different but again I’m not well versed in all types of strollers.

Walt Disney world can ask, if that stroller manually powered or electronic, and then base the capacity based on that. That is what the policy should be, but instead Disney just lumps all mobility devices together which is where the issue arises from.

I brought up DAS because it limits party size. So does the wheelchair-accessible vehicle for Small World. And other attractions. Are you aware that only a limited number of ride vehicles in a “run” can have a wheelchair? That is due to evacuation needs, not necessarily anything else (like weight as you keep insinuating).

To my knowledge there are no “electronic” powered strollers. All are manual push. Limits are based on more than just weight — namely emergency evacuation procedures.

 

[Isthisnormalatdisney]

I think it’s obvious, not speculative, that overcrowding a SAW user is a safety concern, to the point I really wonder if you know anything about the population of SAW users & why they need SAW past the tip of your own nose. I am totally sure you have no reason to think your personal SAW use could ever be different than a user without mobility or equipment issues, but maybe spending more time understanding who needs SAW and why would help you not embarrass yourself filing this one.

again I’m not one to make generalization about a whole category of people based on stereotypes that you are apparently very comfortable doing. People use wheelchairs, scooters, and mobility devices for a whole host of different reasons. This area is called disABILITES since it is important to focus on the abilities of people too. I really think you should re-evaluate your claim on if such broad statements should be made about entire groups of people.

 

[NaptownMom]

again I’m not one to make generalization about a whole category of people based on stereotypes that you are apparently very comfortable doing. People use wheelchairs, scooters, and mobility devices for a whole host of different reasons. This area is called disABILITES since it is important to focus on the abilities of people too. I really think you should re-evaluate your claim on if such broad statements should be made about entire groups of people.

See this is exactly the hole in your logic. I’m not stereotyping SAW users, I’m acknowledging mobility and other SAW needs do not sit in complete isolation from other issues related to using Disney transportation. You also think it’s a grievous harm to split up a group over the size of 6… but also, this is completely consistent with ADA accommodations in every imaginable setting, including movie theatres, as described in exactly the case you lean on.