Sigma DP1 for those considering a DSLR

[Master Mason]

Doesn't the K100D take 1 monochromatic 4mp picture and 2 monochromatic 1mp pictures and call that a six megapixel picture? I was under the impression that the advertised mp resolution of a digital camera counted each pixel as one pixel disregarding the fact that each is only a single color. The combined image is then made by using an algorithm to guess what the full color of each of those pixels is supposed to be.

Now it's true that a traditional 6mp SLR really has 6 million discrete monochromatic pixels as opposed to 4 million tri-color pixels. I'm not sure how you compare the two. I'd recommend comparisons based on actual resolving power and color accuracy rather than megapixel counts because the 6mp isn't really 6 color megapixels and the 4 mp is definitely not 14 megapixels.

yes save youselves the arguement and simply buy a Canon dSLR, we all know they are the best

 

[MarkBarbieri]

yes save youselves the arguement and simply buy a Canon dSLR, we all know they are the best

Now, now. I was just using the K100D as an example and meant it no disrespect. As far as I know, all Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, and Olympus cameras are the same in their reliance on a RGBG sensor and they all count each monochromatic pixel as a pixel on their count. So while the Foveon may have fewer pixels, it has full color pixels rather than monochromatic pixels that get their color from interpolation.

 

[Master Mason]

Now, now. I was just using the K100D as an example and meant it no disrespect. As far as I know, all Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, and Olympus cameras are the same in their reliance on a RGBG sensor and they all count each monochromatic pixel as a pixel on their count. So while the Foveon may have fewer pixels, it has full color pixels rather than monochromatic pixels that get their color from interpolation.

I was just yanking some chains. I have canon, for my own reasons, but they all the brands are good. I don't think you'll ever see me being a canon pusher for real.

 

[webshark3]

Technically, the Sigma has ~14 million effective pixels. So despite the resolution, it's 14mp, NOT 4mp.

But, if you want to call it a 4mp, I don't care. the 10 foot tall prints show what it can really do with "4mp". (And the Mars Rover shows what a 1mp camera can do on an IMAX screen).

I could go back to dpreview for the technical debates. I brought up the DP1 here because of a re-occurring question "Should I bring a DSLR or my P&S to Disney. Unsurprisingly, the answers are always 50/50 with good reasons on both sides.

The DP1 is the first camera that is a P&S, that will produce DSLR results, despite it's design compromises. The COO of Sigma came right out and said that this camera was designed for serious/pro DSLR users who do not want to always carry around their DSLRs. For me it'll make a great Disney Camera, as I use wide angle much more than any zoom.

 

[Master Mason]

The DP1 is the first camera that is a P&S, that will produce DSLR results, despite it's design compromises. The COO of Sigma came right out and said that this camera was designed for serious/pro DSLR users who do not want to always carry around their DSLRs. For me it'll make a great Disney Camera, as I use wide angle much more than any zoom.

This is my problem with your arguement. It simply won't. It might take equal pictures to a dslr with only a 28mm prime, but a dslr is so much more than a camera with a single focal length.

so as stated a couple of times, if it fits your needs and budget, you should be all over it. I hope that you enjoy it emmensly. Just not what I am looking for myself.

 

[webshark3]

It might take equal pictures to a dslr with only a 28mm prime,

Thanks for confirming my comments.

It would actually be about a 16-18mm prime roughly, but I know what you meant.

If they fail to release it, my backup plan is my 300D with 24mm prime lens, or kit lens (18-55). I have a incredible 28-75 f2.8 lenses, but learned that it really starts to weigh on you over the course of the day in 90+ degree heat.

I bought the 24mm last yeat after determining most of my photos were wide angle, and even crops looked great. Unfortunately, the 24mm never came out to play as it rained all the time. FORTUNATELY I planned for that, and my Pentax OptioWP (waterproof) came out to play for the whole trip. LOL I'd like to see ANY DSLR do this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/webshark3/IMGP4512.jpg

 

[Master Mason]

Thanks for confirming my comments.

Key word is might, but I'll take your word for it

I bought the 24mm last yeat after determining most of my photos were wide angle, and even crops looked great. Unfortunately, the 24mm never came out to play as it rained all the time. FORTUNATELY I planned for that, and my Pentax OptioWP (waterproof) came out to play for the whole trip. LOL I'd like to see ANY DSLR do this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/webshark3/IMGP4512.jpg

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=319451&highlight=photos+in+the+rain

It just depends on what DSLR you have or the set up

http://www.justinunderwater.com/homepage.htm

 

[webshark3]

I thought about a casing or bag for my DSLR. But my wife would have been furious if I was strugling to get a case on my camera (cameras with video) while leaving my son in a downpour. LOL

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Technically, the Sigma has ~14 million effective pixels. So despite the resolution, it's 14mp, NOT 4mp

It's just a semantic thing, but the DPReview article says that it has 14 million "sensor photo detectors" which translates to 4.6 million pixels. I'm really not sure that there is any valid way to compare that in simple numeric terms to a traditional bayer array sensor. It only resolves 4.6 million pixels of detail, but it takes 14 million color readings. This compares with a 6 mp digital camera resolving 6 million pixels of detail and 6 million color readings. Apples and Oranges. Just judge it by the picture quality in the formats you need and ignore the numbers game.

 

[Anewman]

Technically, the Sigma has ~14 million effective pixels. So despite the resolution, it's 14mp, NOT 4mp.

Last question...

So the image produced by the camera in what ever format(jpeg, tiff, etc...) contains how many pixels?

 

[webshark3]

It just depends on what DSLR you have or the set up

http://www.justinunderwater.com/homepage.htm

Actually, while we're off topic, I'll share a neat tip to protect your SLR that's super cheap. NOT waterproof, but rain is not a problem. You'll need:

1) a Large clear plastic zip-lock bag (any brand should be ok; weaker bags may work better - more flexible).
2) SLR camera with lens (duh)
3) Filter for the lens
4) (Optional) Lens Hood

Step 1) Put your SLR in the bag, lens down (so the lens is in the bottom away from the opening.
Step 2) Close the bag. You don't need air in the bad, you can let it all out.
Step 3) On the Outside of the bag, carefully screw the filter onto the lens over the plastic.
Step 4) With a knife (most likey swiss-army) cut the plastic away from the INSIDE of the lens filter, exposing the filter. The threading should still be griping the plastic bag.
Step 5) add the lens hood if you have on to help keep rain off the filter.

That's it. A cheap way to help protect, as well as allow you to shoot in the rain at Disney. I didn't do it myself since I had a Waterproof camera. Had to fuss around with to many other things during the quick downpours....

 

[MarkBarbieri]

If you do that, keep the lens cover on as much as possible, keep the lenses pointed down when not shooting and the lens cover is off, and keep a dry store of microfiber cloths. The goal is to avoid water drops on the lens as much as possible.

 

[webshark3]

Last question...

So the image produced by the camera in what ever format(jpeg, tiff, etc...) contains how many pixels?

Trick question. What are you using to process the image? Only the Sigma Software (v3) will properly handle the image. 14 million pixels.

Windows is dumb, and Adobe isn't ready for the new Foveon Sensor (Which is why there are still so many complaints about noise).

 

[webshark3]

If you do that, keep the lens cover on as much as possible, keep the lenses pointed down when not shooting and the lens cover is off, and keep a dry store of microfiber cloths. The goal is to avoid water drops on the lens as much as possible.

Good points.

I heard that some pros would rub an apple slice on the filter. If kept water droplets from forming. Never tried it, so don't know if it works.

 

[Anewman]

Trick question. What are you using to process the image? Only the Sigma Software (v3) will properly handle the image. 14 million pixels.

Windows is dumb, and Adobe isn't ready for the new Foveon Sensor (Which is why there are still so many complaints about noise).

So the Sigma Software will produce a 14mp final product?

I am being 100% serious.

 

[webshark3]

So the Sigma Software will produce a 14mp final product?

I am being 100% serious.

I played around with it. It's actually quite involved. So I will say that Foveon is probably not for the faint of heart. But I was able to choose output resolution, and choosing some sample images, I could easily compare it's 14mp output to a ~10mp Bayer Layer.

But I'll concede part of our original point. If you shoot JPG and view it in windows, you'll see a 4mp image. But from a APS-C sensor, that 4mp image will still be much more versatile than a P&S tiny sensor. Sigma has shown that "4mp" image as a 10' tall print to dispel any myth about the pixels. My 6mp P&S struggles at 8x10".

 

[Groucho]

Rain pictures are no big deal for any DSLR with water and dust sealing. They should be fine in almost anything save submersion. I would guess that even non-sealed DSLRs will often be fine in a light rain.

The megapixel count is purely marketing. As far as I'm concerned, megapixels should rate the resolution of the photo you get out of the camera is. A typical 6mp camera gives you 6mp, a 10mp gives you 10, etc.

If you want to start getting nitty-gritty, you could make a claim that cameras that cannot save in a lossless format (like most RAW formats) are actually less mp than they claim because some pixels are lost to compression.

The Foveon sensor effectively makes three black and white photos. There is color information for just one single channel in each of the 4.7 mp. Now, I can easily take a picture made with any digital camera and break it down into three separate pictures, one each for the color channels, but does that mean that that picture is suddenly 3x the megapixels? Of course not.

So, three pictures that are each one third of the original photograph, and are basically useless without the other two, do not count as three photos in my book. Using separate sensors is a very neat trick and may be the way of the future - but that's all "behind the scenes" stuff. If a customer actually buys one and expects to get a 14mp photo and is actually left with a 2652 x 1768 image is going to be pretty disappointed.

And yes, basically everyone except Sigma has normal Bayer-filter sensors. The only thing somewhat comparable to the Sigma, I think, is the Fuji sensor in their S3 Pro DSLR, which has basically two 6mp sensors (and is also guilty of claiming more mp, though they can at least product a 12mp photo from them straight from the camera), but those are for dynamic range, not color.

 

[handicap18]

Actually, while we're off topic, I'll share a neat tip to protect your SLR that's super cheap. NOT waterproof, but rain is not a problem. You'll need:

1) a Large clear plastic zip-lock bag (any brand should be ok; weaker bags may work better - more flexible).
2) SLR camera with lens (duh)
3) Filter for the lens
4) (Optional) Lens Hood

Step 1) Put your SLR in the bag, lens down (so the lens is in the bottom away from the opening.
Step 2) Close the bag. You don't need air in the bad, you can let it all out.
Step 3) On the Outside of the bag, carefully screw the filter onto the lens over the plastic.
Step 4) With a knife (most likey swiss-army) cut the plastic away from the INSIDE of the lens filter, exposing the filter. The threading should still be griping the plastic bag.
Step 5) add the lens hood if you have on to help keep rain off the filter.

That's it. A cheap way to help protect, as well as allow you to shoot in the rain at Disney. I didn't do it myself since I had a Waterproof camera. Had to fuss around with to many other things during the quick downpours....

I've read this and re-read this many times trying to visualize it and correct me if I'm wrong, but this will not work.

If the camera and lens are in the bag and you screw the filter over the lens from the outside of the bag, then the part that you want to cut away is now between the lens and the filter. You'd have to cut away the glass on the filter to get to the plastic that needs to be cut away.

Now I do think that it will work if you attach the lens hood from the outside of the bag as the lens hood has no glass to cover over the part of the bag you want to cut away. Then you can attatch the filter to hold the bag to the lens. Unless of course the filter doesn't have glass on it, then its just a plain old ring that can screw onto a lens.

 

[Anewman]

I've read this and re-read this many times trying to visualize it and correct me if I'm wrong, but this will not work.

If the camera and lens are in the bag and you screw the filter over the lens from the outside of the bag, then the part that you want to cut away is now between the lens and the filter. You'd have to cut away the glass on the filter to get to the plastic that needs to be cut away.

Now I do think that it will work if you attach the lens hood from the outside of the bag as the lens hood has no glass to cover over the part of the bag you want to cut away. Then you can attatch the filter to hold the bag to the lens. Unless of course the filter doesn't have glass on it, then its just a plain old ring that can screw onto a lens.

Think that is the only way it would work...

 

[MarkBarbieri]

The Foveon sensor effectively makes three black and white photos. There is color information for just one single channel in each of the 4.7 mp.

Umm, have you checked to see how a normal bayer array sensor works? Each of the 6 megapixels captured by a K100D (or any other 6 megapixel camera) is also "black and white" (monochromatic, actually). So what do you want a mere 6 million photo-receptors or 14 million photo receptors? Do you want 6 million different monochromatic pixels or a mere 4.7 million full color pixels? There is just no way to make an apples to apples comparison.

Now, I can easily take a picture made with any digital camera and break it down into three separate pictures, one each for the color channels, but does that mean that that picture is suddenly 3x the megapixels? Of course not.

Why not claim it had 3x megapixels? Other makers claim the full monochromatic resolution and don't divide that number by three when talk about full color photographs. It would certainly be innaccurate to claim the higher number of pixels for the foveon because they are interpolated, but the converse has never stopped other digital camera makers. How many people realize that their 6 mp DSLR isn't really recording 6 mp worth of full color pixels and is relying on interpolation to convert those monochromatic pixels to color?

There are other theoretical advantages to using stacked sensors. You should be able to have larger photo-receptors in the same physical area because they are stacked. You also don't need a blur-inducing anti-aliasing filter to prevent moire patterns.

Of course, theory is theory and reality is reality. Just compare the images and make up your own mind.