Sick Cat

[Pea-n-Me]

Their kidneys aren’t concentrating properly so they’re producing too much urine and becoming dehydrated in the process. To make up for the losses, they drink more. Then the cycle continues. Chronic renal failure patients will sometimes just park themselves in front of the water bowl drinking, peeing, drinking, peeing… They always have to pee and it’s in larger quantities than a healthy animal produces.

Ok, I believe you. (I know you were a vet tech.) I have never had a cat, nor have any of my 8 dogs had renal issues. All I can go by is my experience with human kidney failure (in both my work and a couple of family members), and basic principles aren’t that much different than in animals. But perhaps cats behave differently when they have kidney failure. I researched a little more.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/kidney-failure-chronic-in-cats

It still doesn’t seem that renal failure was something that Brian’s veterinarian was concerned about.

 

[LSUmiss]

Thanks. Wouldn't a tumor have popped up ont he blood work. I had the comprehensive panel done, plus X-rays. It's really quite baffling.



Well, she does seem to be drinking/peeing well enough. I can't imagine what toxin she could have gotten into. She is an indoor only cat.

I am trying to remember exactly how she was behaving before her first trip. I know she was off a bit and somewhat lethargic, but I feel like she had been eating before getting her initial shots, etc. Eating wasn't a big concern on that first trip. I am keeping a journal now, but I wish I had done so beforehand.

Unfortunately no. Even in people, tumors aren’t always seen on bloodwork or X-ray until they start to affect a specific organ. Is she pooping normal amounts? Is it really hard? Cats can severe constipation.

 

[LSUmiss]

Their kidneys don’t concentrate the urine properly and animals with chronic kidney failure absolutely flood their litter box, need frequent trips outside, etc. We tend to see more urination with kidney failure animals than less. In fact, I can only recall a few oliguric cases in my years of veterinary medicine; it’s almost always the other way around.

Exactly. I was going to ask if he’s seeing more urine. It’s almost like their own internal dialysis. And, I’m sure you know, but saying it for the benefit of others reading, that some medical management treatment options are frequent subq fluids. Again, like a form a dialysis. And, sometimes, they start to have issues before they clinically present on blood work. And kidney disease in very common in older cats.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Exactly. I was going to ask if he’s seeing more urine. It’s almost like their own internal dialysis. And, I’m sure you know, but saying it for the benefit of others reading, that some medical management treatment options are frequent subq fluids. Again, like a form a dialysis. And, sometimes, they start to have issues before they clinically present on blood work. And kidney disease in very common in older cats.

I don’t want to scare Brian with this so I’ll say that usually the first issues would be increased thirst and urination, not inappetence and lethargy like his cat is displaying right now. IME, those symptoms come way down the line after the cat has lived with the disease for quite a while, years maybe, and they’re into the end stages. When renal failure can be detected on blood work depends on the type of test run. BUN/Creatinine values won’t be high until about 75% damage to the kidneys. SDMA can detect it years earlier at about 40% damage. Also, pretty much every cat is going to develop renal failure if they live long enough. (Whoever invented cats used a faulty mold for the kidneys.) It’s probably best to try to accept that it’s something you’ll deal with as part of cat ownership but also realize they can live with it for years and it’s not necessarily a death sentence. Out of my 5 cats in renal failure, only 2 actually died from the disease. The other 3 were taken by other diseases-of-age before the kidneys could get them. And they were all 17-19 years old, too.

If the bloodwork looks good for Brian’s cat right now, then the kidneys aren’t bad enough to be causing these symptoms, IMO.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

@BrianL has your cat had any weight loss or taken on a scraggly/poor hair coat in recent months?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

@TipsyTraveler Is the presentation the same in dogs? For future reference!

 

[kymom99]

I don’t want to scare Brian with this so I’ll say that usually the first issues would be increased thirst and urination, not inappetence and lethargy like his cat is displaying right now. IME, those symptoms come way down the line after the cat has lived with the disease for quite a while, years maybe, and they’re into the end stages. When renal failure can be detected on blood work depends on the type of test run. BUN/Creatinine values won’t be high until about 75% damage to the kidneys. SDMA can detect it years earlier at about 40% damage. Also, pretty much every cat is going to develop renal failure if they live long enough. (Whoever invented cats used a faulty mold for the kidneys.) It’s probably best to try to accept that it’s something you’ll deal with as part of cat ownership but also realize they can live with it for years and it’s not necessarily a death sentence. Out of my 5 cats in renal failure, only 2 actually died from the disease. The other 3 were taken by other diseases-of-age before the kidneys could get them. And they were all 17-19 years old, too.

If the bloodwork looks good for Brian’s cat right now, then the kidneys aren’t bad enough to be causing these symptoms, IMO.

If I’m right, special diet can help maintain the kidney function. In all my cats, the disease was discovered in the late stages. In one case I opted to euthanize right away. Sadly, she was only 7. In the other 2 it was found a little sooner and I waited until they got worse. I agree about cats and kidneys. If they live long enough it’s almost inevitable. But as you said, they can live with decreased kidney function for a long time. The sooner it’s discovered, the better.

 

[mom2rtk]

If I’m right, special diet can help maintain the kidney function. In all my cats, the disease was discovered in the late stages. In one case I opted to euthanize right away. In the other 2 it was found a little sooner and I waited until they got worse. I agree about cats and kidneys. If they live long enough it’s almost inevitable. But as you said, they can live with decreased kidney function for a long time. The sooner it’s discovered, the better.

Our calico lived with diagnosed kidney disease for almost 2 years before we let her go because of likely dementia. Her kidney numbers actually improved during that time ostensibly because of the Prescription Diet.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

@TipsyTraveler Is the presentation the same in dogs? For future reference!

Yes ma’am, assuming we’re talking about chronic and not acute renal failure. Dogs tend to not live as long with it as cats do, though, unless something has changed in the years since I was in vet med. I had a dog with chronic renal failure as a result of congenital abnormalities in her kidneys. We hospitalized her and then treated with daily subQ fluids at home and she lived for another year which was considered a very successful outcome. My cats all lived much longer than that from the time of diagnosis with the exception of one whose values were astronomically high (literally off the charts) by the time it was incidentally discovered. He was still acting like his usual self; the vet couldn’t believe he was still alive.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yes ma’am, assuming we’re talking about chronic and not acute renal failure. Dogs tend to not live as long with it as cats do, though, unless something has changed in the years since I was in vet med. I had a dog with chronic renal failure as a result of congenital abnormalities in her kidneys. We hospitalized her and then treated with daily subQ fluids at home and she lived for another year which was considered a very successful outcome. My cats all lived much longer than that from the time of diagnosis with the exception of one whose values were astronomically high (literally off the charts) by the time it was incidentally discovered. He was still acting like his usual self; the vet couldn’t believe he was still alive.

Thank you

 

[LSUmiss]

I don’t want to scare Brian with this so I’ll say that usually the first issues would be increased thirst and urination, not inappetence and lethargy like his cat is displaying right now. IME, those symptoms come way down the line after the cat has lived with the disease for quite a while, years maybe, and they’re into the end stages. When renal failure can be detected on blood work depends on the type of test run. BUN/Creatinine values won’t be high until about 75% damage to the kidneys. SDMA can detect it years earlier at about 40% damage. Also, pretty much every cat is going to develop renal failure if they live long enough. (Whoever invented cats used a faulty mold for the kidneys.) It’s probably best to try to accept that it’s something you’ll deal with as part of cat ownership but also realize they can live with it for years and it’s not necessarily a death sentence. Out of my 5 cats in renal failure, only 2 actually died from the disease. The other 3 were taken by other diseases-of-age before the kidneys could get them. And they were all 17-19 years old, too.

If the bloodwork looks good for Brian’s cat right now, then the kidneys aren’t bad enough to be causing these symptoms, IMO.

True. Unfortunately, for my cats, lethargy & anorexia has always meant cancer . I would probably request an abdominal ultrasound.

 

[Mango7100]

Just wondering if this was your personal experience or something? Because generally, signs of kidney failure are low or no urine output. I have never seen increased urine output in kidney failure with the exception of possibly some other unusual conditions, or on purpose via medications.

https://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/urinary/c_ct_oliguria_anuria

Not trying to criticize, but it’s important that Brian gets correct information here.

Agree that bloodwork would’ve shown if there was a problem with the kidneys, though. (Although things could’ve worsened since that initial bloodwork was drawn, but probably unlikely in absence of something serious going on.)

Tipsy is correct. I am a vet. Cats present most commonly for kidney disease with polyuria. Polyuria (increased urination) and polydipsia (increase thirst) are one of the most common signs of kidney disease. Low urine output (oliguria) or no urine output (anuria) are rarely seen in chronic kidney failure unless it is end stage (there are 4 stages). Anuria can be seen in more acute kidney injury from toxin such as ethylene glycol or lily ingestion. I have never had an anuric cat. Stranguria is straining to urinating and producing small amounts—that is seen more with UTI, urinary stones, cystitis, urinary neoplasia, etc.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Tipsy is correct. I am a vet. Cats present most commonly for kidney disease with polyuria. Polyuria (increased urination) and polydipsia (increase thirst) are one of the most common signs of kidney disease. Low urine output (oliguria) or no urine output (anuria) are rarely seen in chronic kidney failure unless it is end stage (there are 4 stages). Anuria can be seen in more acute kidney injury from toxin such as ethylene glycol or lily ingestion. I have never had an anuric cat. Stranguria is straining to urinating and producing small amounts—that is seen more with UTI, urinary stones, cystitis, urinary neoplasia, etc.

It’s interesting to me, since anuria and oliguria are so common in people. It seemed to be what the PetMD link was saying, too. But I believe you all. Nothing like first-hand experience.

 

[Mango7100]

It’s interesting to me, since anuria and oliguria are so common in people. It seemed to be what the PetMD link was saying, too. But I believe you all. Nothing like first-hand experience.

It is crazy the differences. Especially cats—they are very unique. We always were taught that cats are not small dogs and cannot be treated as such. Then throw In seeing the occasional rabbit/guinea pig, etc and remembering their differences gets a bit crazy! I don’t remember any large animal stuff and certainly would never attempt to treat a horse or cow now—my brain can’t handle it

 

[BrianL]

Unfortunately no. Even in people, tumors aren’t always seen on bloodwork or X-ray until they start to affect a specific organ. Is she pooping normal amounts? Is it really hard? Cats can severe constipation.

She is peeing and pooping. It's a little light on the poop because she's been a little light on eating. It seems like pretty normal poop though. None of it is excessive either.

On a positive note she ate pretty much all of her wet-food dinner tonight and several treats too!

@BrianL has your cat had any weight loss or taken on a scraggly/poor hair coat in recent months?

No, no issues there. There was no detected weight loss at the vet over the three visits, though I could swear she's a little less chonky then she uset to be. I might just be looking for things though.

True. Unfortunately, for my cats, lethargy & anorexia has always meant cancer . I would probably request an abdominal ultrasound.

Yeah, I do wonder. He didn't think so, but it is something I will bring up with him for sure. We gotta be sure, right?

 

[TipsyTraveler]

True. Unfortunately, for my cats, lethargy & anorexia has always meant cancer . I would probably request an abdominal ultrasound.

So… yeah. That’s kind of where I was going with my question about weight loss. This is not at all scientifically validated but in every case of my personal pets dying from some chronic disease, I have always been able to look back and see that they started their decline about a full year prior. That last year has always been one where they just started looking and acting old — slow weight loss, muscle wasting, unkempt coat, just generally slowing down. There was always several months of that before they progressed to a point where there was a more obvious symptom to point to like lethargy or inappetence, and there were usually other subtle signs to go along with the GI lymphoma cats like changes in poop or occasional vomiting.

However, any time my pets have been in their normal healthy body condition and then suddenly presented with a problem, it was usually something fixable. A hairball, arthritis, the dumb-dumb ate a blanket, or, hopefully for Brian’s cat, a side effect of the medication.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

@BrianL I’m glad she ate well tonight! Hopefully she’s turned the corner. You said you had a call in to the vet — did you speak to him?


@Mango7100 Not sure if you’re going to remember this conversation, but my cat still doesn’t have platelets. Been more than a year now!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Brian, so glad she ate tonight! That’s very encouraging!

 

[BrianL]

So… yeah. That’s kind of where I was going with my question about weight loss. This is not at all scientifically validated but in every case of my personal pets dying from some chronic disease, I have always been able to look back and see that they started their decline about a full year prior. That last year has always been one where they just started looking and acting old — slow weight loss, muscle wasting, unkempt coat, just generally slowing down. There was always several months of that before they progressed to a point where there was a more obvious symptom to point to like lethargy or inappetence, and there were usually other subtle signs to go along with the GI lymphoma cats like changes in poop or occasional vomiting.

However, any time my pets have been in their normal healthy body condition and then suddenly presented with a problem, it was usually something fixable. A hairball, arthritis, the dumb-dumb ate a blanket, or, hopefully for Brian’s cat, a side effect of the medication.

I understand. This has definitely been somewhat sudden, though not completely. It could be that she was sick from something before, and while the antibiotics cleaared that up, they brought on their own issues.

She is eating and drinking well, tonight and seems on the better side.

@BrianL I’m glad she ate well tonight! Hopefully she’s turned the corner. You said you had a call in to the vet — did you speak to him?

I didn't get the call in until after 3 PM our time, so he did not get back to me today. I would expect him to call in the morning. She did seem to eat much better tonight, though she is still meowing at me like she wants something - maybe just attnetion! Conisdering I camp out int he living room right now to be closer to her at night, I don't know what else I can do there. One thing she does that botehrs me is when she stares at the food/water, but doesn't do anything with it - that's odd, for her anyway. My old cat used to do that all the time, but he also used to just eat, then plop over and fall asleep right there. He was a bit of a lazy boy!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Well if anyone’s interested. I mentioned my dog ate some rabbit poop the other day. He happened to sit next to me on the sofa last night and the flatulence that came out of his butt nearly knocked me out! He was out of sorts for a couple of days but he seems mostly back to himself tonight. We have a family of baby bunnies living under our shed!