Should these people be charged with murder?

An affidavit said tests determined that a lethal amount of morphine was administered on September 1 to four patients ages 62, 66, 89 and 90.

At 62 and 66, these people probably had decades left to live. My parents and in-laws are well above these ages.

Both my parents are doctors. They took an oath to do no harm, as did the physicians here. These people did not chose to die. Someone else chose for them. That's murder and they should be charged as such. It makes me physically sick to think of a physician in a role of trust and authority do that to someone without their consent or to talk them into it.

Let me add that my Mom spent weeks in the NOLA airport and it has traumatized her. She previsouly planned to work until they wouldn't let her. Now, and because of her work there, she's planning on returing in 4-4.5 years. She's seen it frist hand and when I mentioned this to her she hung up the phone.
 
Cool-Beans said:
Still don't know the guy's medical history or why the decision was made. Maybe he weighed 380 lbs because he was fat, maybe he was 3rd spacing, maybe his kidneys had failed and they couldn't send him to dialysis...who knows.

Like I said before, IF these folks truly decided not to bother with people just to make things easier for themselves, they should go to jail.

But if they didn't, they shouldn't be penalized in any way.

I just gotta wait and see.

Professional question....

why would the care staff for those patients completely refuse to do what that doctor requested and step away from the situation?

I know someone mentioned (i think you did...don't remember) the nurse who quit the burn ward b/c of the torture of treating the child burn victims...is this the same..or could it be possible that the lifecare staff knew what that dr was planning was wrong?

But in your career didn't you ever once question what a plan of treatment was b/c you thought it was wrong?
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
You did--but you seemed to justify their actions.

And I only posted once and then edited--no idea what double posting you are referring to. :confused3

ETA: just double check since I was falsely accused and I seemed to have responded once each to two separate posts you have made. :confused3

Oh gee, so we are now going to have an on going battle over this? Not worth it.

What happens will happen, and I believe you won't be happy with the results. I may just find it justified.

And you weren't falsely accused, were you?
 
Evil Queen said:
Oh gee, so we are now going to have an on going battle over this? Not worth it.

What happens will happen, and I believe you won't be happy with the results. I may just find it justified.


I pulled information from a legal document in rebuttal to your statement and you feel compelled to attack my posts.

Yes--when it comes to that, it isn't worth it.

Good day to you.
 

Lisa loves Pooh said:
I pulled information from a legal document in rebuttal to your statement and you feel compelled to attack my posts.

Yes--when it comes to that, it isn't worth it.

Good day to you.

Where did I attack your post? you are going a bit too far. I gave my opinions, just as you did, to whatever info you could find. Seems a bit lop sided. Do not accuse me of something I did not do...thank you and a VERY good day to you.
 
I agree with you, they took an oath to do no harm. So in my mind, yes it is illegal and yes they should go to jail. No one has the right to make a decision that someone is not worth evacuating due to their condition. As mentioned in one of the earlier posts, they were playing God. What will happen to them in a court of law who knows. But in the end they will have to answer to God for what they have done.


UnderTheMistletoe said:
Both my parents are doctors. They took an oath to do no harm, as did the physicians here. These people did not chose to die. Someone else chose for them. That's murder and they should be charged as such. It makes me physically sick to think of a physician in a role of trust and authority do that to someone without their consent or to talk them into it.
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
Professional question....

why would the care staff for those patients completely refuse to do what that doctor requested and step away from the situation?
Good question. One I'd like to hear all about before making decisions about whether people are evil or not.
Lisa loves Pooh said:
I know someone mentioned (i think you did...don't remember) the nurse who quit the burn ward b/c of the torture of treating the child burn victims...is this the same..or could it be possible that the lifecare staff knew what that dr was planning was wrong?
See, that's the thing. My friend quit because she couldn't do it. Someone else would say, no that kid may go through hell for 6 months, but then they'll have a life. I'll scrape that kids skin off while they scream...they are going to survive. Everyone would agree (most would, anyway) that the kid should suffer the hell to have the future. But one mom said no, let the girl die. Didn't want her daughter to go through all that. They medicated her and she died. Those are really tough calls to make. I don't pass judgement on either side there. I can't pick a side!
Lisa loves Pooh said:
But in your career didn't you ever once question what a plan of treatment was b/c you thought it was wrong?
I'm the wrong one to ask. There are two kinds of nurses. There are the "We know more than the doctors do" and the "We don't..." kind. I don't question the doctors. They know more than I do.

I spent most of my "career" doing hospice. Only the last few years in hospitals.

I work in a cardiac unit that was recently rated THE best in the world. Anyone who is seriously ill and has the money comes here. The doctors are wicked smart and NO WAY would I question them.

But, I did work in a place where some doctors were better than others, like any profession. Some I'd trust my family to, some probably not. But, even the guys who I wouldn't go to myself knew more than I did.

But ask another nurse and you'll hear about the stupid doctors and how she knows a lot more than they do. And there are some doctors who have a chip on their shoulder about nurses, too. They play their game, I play mine.
 
Cool-Beans said:
. There are two kinds of nurses. There are the "We know more than the doctors do" and the "We don't..." kind. I don't question the doctors. They know more than I do.
...

But ask another nurse and you'll hear about the stupid doctors and how she knows a lot more than they do. And there are some doctors who have a chip on their shoulder about nurses, too. They play their game, I play mine.


I guess I'm not speaking of those situations (the ones where person A thinks they are smarter than Person B).

I'm speaking of the "you know in your gut they are wrong"--not b/c they are stupid..but what they are doing is wrong. Regardless of expertise--a situation where someone is wrong and you are right.

I've not had too many medical emergencies--but had some instances with 2 doctors side by side and one was wrong about something.
 
MScott1851 said:
The problem is, no one knows what really happened. I've seen many patients who were critically ill BEGGING for pain meds, and if you give them even a normal dose, it can depress their respiratory effort enough that the next dose might just kill them.

I work for Tenet. We're in a world of **** right now, not only with the N.O. arrests, but with the $725 million Medicare fraud lawsuit we just settled in Florida. But that has NOTHING to do with my opinion about these nurse and doctors. What these hospitals and nurses did is the same thing you have to do in any mass casualty incident. You triage, decide where to expend your efforts, and sadly, some people simply are not well enough to survive, even under the best of care. It sounds cruel, but most public health policies in the U.S. outline standards of care in situations like this, and the patients that are deemed to be beyond help, you make comfortable, but you don't expend extraordinary effort on.

I talked to patients who were in that hospital, I took care of some that were evacuated from that hospital, and I worked alongside nurses that were evacuated from that hospital. One of them works with me now, and she has developed severe anxiety and actually started having a seizure disorder since she moved to Memphis. It's easy for people to sit in their desk chairs and judge from afar when they have NO CLUE what horrific conditions these nurses, doctors, and aides were dealing with. These patients didn't have food. They were running out of medicines. There was no way to run ventilators. There was no air conditioning or power after the generators blew. There were bugs, snakes, animals inside that hospital, the smell was overpowering by the second day. There was no water. Staff lived in constant fear of being attacked and killed by other people roving around just as desperate for food and water as they were, and also by looters and people trying to steal drugs. The staff was walking around with IV's in their arm just trying to stay strong enough to care for people.

The very first thing I did when I got my two evacuating patients in my ambulance leaving for Memphis was give each of them a shot of Ativan, and a shot of Dilaudid/Phenergan and hung an IV bag, because otherwise they couldn't have tolerated the 8 hour ride in a bumpy ambulance crammed into the back with me and another patient. They had been suffering for days with no food/water, and were in pain. had backups in case they wanted more, because, honestly, that was the only comfort measure I had with me. I wouldn't have given a lethal dose, but I also know that they would tolerate the transport more easily if they were sedated.

I didn't sleep for almost a week after I came home, I couldn't eat, and I didn't even go into the worst parts of N.O. But I had to see people who were so traumatized by Katrina, and what they had seen, and what they had done to survive. I don't for one minute think that I could have handled watching frail, elderly patients who were even on a good day near deaths' door suffer through that excruciating heat, no food, no water. You better believe that if they were crying out and begging for help, asking for pain meds, or something to relieve their suffering, then I would have given it in a heartbeat.

:grouphug: :grouphug: Excellent post! Thanks for sharing.
 
I'll be surprised if they get convictions. The affadavit is one side of the story. Wait until the defense rolls out its side.


I feel it's way too soon to make judgments.
 
It is disturbing information. Seems like there's an array of cases. Sad for all involved.
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
FTR I never called the doctors names.
Of course you didn't. But if they did what they have been accused of on this thread, then they would be evil. And there would be a lot more at stake for them than losing a license. There would be going to jail, and going to hell, if you believe in that sort of thing.

I don't second-guess the doctors because I just don't have the knowledge to do so. There are times when I know what they're doing isn't working, but I don't have a better idea of what TO do than they do.

I do my job and I let the doctors do theirs. It works for me.
 
jodifla said:
I'll be surprised if they get convictions. The affadavit is one side of the story. Wait until the defense rolls out its side.


I feel it's way too soon to make judgments.
Like you I will reserve judgment until all sides have a chance to speak and all "witnesses" and affadavits are cross examined.
The article in the link was fairly informative, thank you.
 
ducklite said:
You need to untwist your panties. I related what I read in my DH's texts in relation to how triage works. I'd like anyone who is a medical professional to tell me if I was wrong in what I wrote, because I'll let the publisher of this text know.

And after reading the complaint that accompanied the warrants, I absolutely believe that at least one person was murdered because someone didn't want to deal with evacuating him. He was conscious and alert, and didn't appear to be "suffering" anymore than anyone would have been in that hell hole. They didn't even TRY to evacuate him. I guess it was too much work.

They allegedly played God. And now they'll pay for it.

Anne
Will they allegedly pay for it or really pay for it? (Joke! Joking now!)

But, seriously, real life is very, very different than the textbooks. I'm sure your family will be able to confirm this for you. :)
 
declansdad said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but when you are making a decision about who to treat in triage, you don't administer a lethal dose of drugs to those who you decide will probably die anyway?
No, but if evacuators came and there were still folks alive who you couldn't move due to being too sick but couldn't leave because then you'd be abadoning them, and there were other patients who needed you to survive, but if they had your help they would survive, what would you do?
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
Professional question....

why would the care staff for those patients completely refuse to do what that doctor requested and step away from the situation?

I know someone mentioned (i think you did...don't remember) the nurse who quit the burn ward b/c of the torture of treating the child burn victims...is this the same..or could it be possible that the lifecare staff knew what that dr was planning was wrong?

Interpertation is a funny thing. We all interpert facts, it is part of being a thinking being, but it can get you into trouble. You are reading into the facts. All we know is a nurse that was close to a patient did not wish to help in the process of ending his life. We do not know if she had a moral qualm. You are reading that into it when it is not there. I am sure she will be called in the case and we will find out what she thought.

The real crime is that anyone was put into this situation in the first place. Why did it take so long to get people out? Why are these Docotors held so accountable when our leaders are not?
 
Haley,

I agree with your question about our leaders not being held responsible.

Each of us has to act on our own moral code. I, for one, have stepped in for the patient a few times in my 30 years as a nurse. I remember one situation where the patient was refusing treatment and they were attempting to sedate him to get him to agree. Another nurse and I took the bed out of the room and got his wife in with him to discuss it with the doctors. The doc's weren't happy but what they were attempting to do was assault. I would have been responsible also for not acting. Do I know more than a doctor? About some things I do. I also know I am willing to stand up if something is wrong no matter who is doing it.

If the doctor was discussing what she planned with all these different people and no one stood up and tried to discourage it or find an alternative approach to the problem then they are equally responsible for what happened to those patients, in my opinion. The real crime might be that all these people stood by and allowed this event to happen. With so many staff members, could they not have taken a 380# quadrapelegic patient down 7 flights of stairs slowly on a mattress? I have a lot of questions about the events in this hospital but this is only one small piece of the pie and there are many stories we will never hear.
 
Wow. lots of conjecture and few facts on this thread. It'll be interesting to find out what really happened. I'm surprised that so many people are making such big assumptions already.
 


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