Should these people be charged with murder?

If I was bedridden and thought I would drown in my bed from rising flood waters or die from dehydration due to no drinking water, I would rather be euthanized honestly.
The issue is, there's no way to ever know what really happened.
 
A doctor who worked at Memorial committed suicide a couple of months ago. She was on duty at the time of the hurricane and was having problems coping with actions taken at that time. Don't be surprised if you hear of more arrests and maybe at other hospitals. Remember N.O. was w/out electricty,food,or water for a long time.
My BIL was in Memorial in the end stages of AIDS and the family moved him home about 2 weeks before the hurricane-Thank God.
 
Keli said:
YES I think these people should be charged. It is not their place to decide when or if someone dies. They are not God and they had no right to pretend they were..
All doctors, to a degree, play God. Living anything other than a totally natural life, which none of us can do, is playing God as we are deciding to extend or shorten our lives (according to your comments). I'm sure they did not "pretend" they were playing God - it's kinda sad that you think that these people, going through a he** that you could not imagine, were happy with their decision or wanted that to happen.
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
I don't need to imagine. If they were not guilty it would be by reason of insanity. They didn't protect these people. They made a deity-decision to control the outcome. That is not the oath they took. :(
Wow. You were there? That's amazing. You should be a witness since you know what they did, or did not do. You know their motivations, etc - as you don't need to imagine. I think we're all honored by reading your posts since you were so closely involved in the situation.
 

Maybe they sped up the evacuation so that they help others that did have a chance of surviving. Maybe staying behind much longer would have led to other deaths. Who knows?

I do know that if they would have escorted patients out and left some others behind to die slow deaths then everyone would be up in arms about that too. I prefer to wait and see what the situation was before casting stones.
 
I am actually crying reading this.

I used to be a paramedic in downtown Atlanta...Grady Memorial...

People died every day....from neglect....mistakes....infections...

I had to debride a child with 3rd degree burns in the kitchen sinks because her mother had slathered butter on her....

I had a patient who had run into a guard rail...it had no end cap on it...the guard rail went through his entire body...there was no way to get him out....gave morphine...and more morphine...did I kill him? I don't know....

I am glad it is not a decision I have to make any more....
 
As a nurse I have a few issues with this situation.

The article refers to using morphine and versed as a "lethal cocktail". Well, I have seen them use together all the time for anesthetics. Versed is used to relax and calm and to assist with amnesia so you don't remember what went on with surgery. Morphine is used for pain control. Some of the newer anesthetics are IV drip drugs and not gasses and don't block you remembering what you hear during surgery. No one wants to remember that, no one.

We are talking about very elderly people here. They often have very poorly functioning livers and kidneys and since the article doesn't tell us what they were there for, we can't make that assumption. Being dehydrated also causes drugs to react differently on people, especially those who are infirm to begin with.

What I am trying to say is, even a normal or light dose might be lethal to a patient who is in poor health and in such a horrible situation. The staff might have been giving doses for other reasons than to kill the patients and hoping for the best as they could not cool, hydrate or placate them otherwise. They also had no access to lab tests to know how they kidneys were functioning on any of the patients. It was a crap shoot even to treat these people. Would you have them do nothing if they were in pain or anxious?

Am I correct that they also had no means of communicating with the outside world? I remember the rescue workers couldn't even do so as it was such a poorly organized mess.

These people might also have been having heat stroke, being eaten by the animals/snakes that were mentioned, all kinds of horrible things.

If it were me or my family, I would have wanted the staff to do whatever they felt best at the time. Honestly. I fear I would have acted the same.
 
re the american nursing oath.

actually i dont't know the american oath but the u.k. one is " to help people get better or die with dignity" i think i would have followed my code and made peace with my god later. the state could do there damnnest as long as i felt i could justify my actions, i wouldn't need to explain it to others. if they wished to prosecute me they could go ahead but in my heart i would know i had dione the right thing and i wouldn't worry about what other people thought.
 
Why do people keep saying they were "very elderly"? Unless I'm not ready correctly, three were in their 60's, one in their 80's. Since when is being too young to retire with full SS benefits "very elderly"?

Anne
 
bsmcneil said:
Wow. You were there? That's amazing. You should be a witness since you know what they did, or did not do. You know their motivations, etc - as you don't need to imagine. I think we're all honored by reading your posts since you were so closely involved in the situation.

We are all honored by your sarcasm.

Amazing how others can have an opinion the Doctors did no wrong and should be praised for their actions when they weren't witnesses either.
 
Lisa loves Pooh said:
We are all honored by your sarcasm.

Amazing how others can have an opinion the Doctors did no wrong and should be praised for their actions when they weren't witnesses either.
You, and all of us, can have opinions. It's when you say you KNOW what happened and don't need to imagine it that there's a problem. Too many people think they're equipped to discuss issues, make judgment calls and assert their knowledge of a situation simply based on what they hear or read in the news. From my understanding, you were not there - so you do not know anything - but feel free to think whatever you want.
 
tar heel said:
Hospice does NOT do this daily. Hospice helps patients with pain control and to die with dignity but it neither hastens nor prolongs death.
Last I knew, most hospices administered Morphine in a continuous drip form. In a person who is dying, their ability to metabolize and excrete drugs decreases as the organs slowly fail. This decrease in function allows the Morphine to build up in the system, which ultimately supresses the respiratory response.

Every medical person who has anything to do with the administration of an IV Morphine drip to a terminally ill patient knows this, and knows what the end result of administering that medication will mean for a terminally ill person. Yes, it helps control pain for the time period in which the patient is alert and may be feeling pain. But there comes a time when the effects of the Morphine overcome the patient's level of alertness, and yet, at that point, no one stops the Morphine, do they?

And I agree wholeheartedly that it helps people die with dignity.

As far as what happened in NOLA, I have no idea the conditions under which those nurses and doctors were working, and could not begin to pass judgement on why they made the decisions they did.

There is such a thing as triage in the medical profession, and especially in a disaster situation, where you don't waste respurces on those who won't survie anyway. It's not pretty, it's not something that the general public wants to think about, but ask any disaster responder and they will tell you. I can remember in nursing school being shown a video of people from the aftermath of a bombing. The person who was running the class was on the disaster response team for the Red Cross I believe, and he was very graphic in describing their decision making process in terms of who they treated and who they didn't. The basic commentary was "You don't waste time with this guy, because his massive head injury will ultimately kill him and you don't have the time to spend to treat him properly, nor do you have the resources to waste". Sounds callous, but guess what? If I was 70 or 80 years old, and wasting a bunch of time and medical resources on me would mean that 4 younger people might not get what they needed, then I would want them to help the younger people. I have lived my life...they have their life ahead of them.

I do know that sometimes there are worse things than dying. I have witnessed the hell on earth that some people's medical condition makes them live, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

We do a bad job with death in this country...always have. We don't talk about it, we try and pretend it isn't going to happen, we try and stave it off by getting plastic surgery so our 80 year old bodies look 40 or 50 years old.

Rest assured, medical people don't go around looking for people to kill, but there are times when difficult decisions have to be made.
 
MScott1851 said:
The problem is, no one knows what really happened. I've seen many patients who were critically ill BEGGING for pain meds, and if you give them even a normal dose, it can depress their respiratory effort enough that the next dose might just kill them.

I work for Tenet. We're in a world of **** right now, not only with the N.O. arrests, but with the $725 million Medicare fraud lawsuit we just settled in Florida. But that has NOTHING to do with my opinion about these nurse and doctors. What these hospitals and nurses did is the same thing you have to do in any mass casualty incident. You triage, decide where to expend your efforts, and sadly, some people simply are not well enough to survive, even under the best of care. It sounds cruel, but most public health policies in the U.S. outline standards of care in situations like this, and the patients that are deemed to be beyond help, you make comfortable, but you don't expend extraordinary effort on.

I talked to patients who were in that hospital, I took care of some that were evacuated from that hospital, and I worked alongside nurses that were evacuated from that hospital. One of them works with me now, and she has developed severe anxiety and actually started having a seizure disorder since she moved to Memphis. It's easy for people to sit in their desk chairs and judge from afar when they have NO CLUE what horrific conditions these nurses, doctors, and aides were dealing with. These patients didn't have food. They were running out of medicines. There was no way to run ventilators. There was no air conditioning or power after the generators blew. There were bugs, snakes, animals inside that hospital, the smell was overpowering by the second day. There was no water. Staff lived in constant fear of being attacked and killed by other people roving around just as desperate for food and water as they were, and also by looters and people trying to steal drugs. The staff was walking around with IV's in their arm just trying to stay strong enough to care for people.

The very first thing I did when I got my two evacuating patients in my ambulance leaving for Memphis was give each of them a shot of Ativan, and a shot of Dilaudid/Phenergan and hung an IV bag, because otherwise they couldn't have tolerated the 8 hour ride in a bumpy ambulance crammed into the back with me and another patient. They had been suffering for days with no food/water, and were in pain. had backups in case they wanted more, because, honestly, that was the only comfort measure I had with me. I wouldn't have given a lethal dose, but I also know that they would tolerate the transport more easily if they were sedated.

I didn't sleep for almost a week after I came home, I couldn't eat, and I didn't even go into the worst parts of N.O. But I had to see people who were so traumatized by Katrina, and what they had seen, and what they had done to survive. I don't for one minute think that I could have handled watching frail, elderly patients who were even on a good day near deaths' door suffer through that excruciating heat, no food, no water. You better believe that if they were crying out and begging for help, asking for pain meds, or something to relieve their suffering, then I would have given it in a heartbeat.
You said it better than I ever could. Thank you.
 
Disney Doll said:
There is such a thing as triage in the medical profession, and especially in a disaster situation, where you don't waste respurces on those who won't survie anyway. It's not pretty, it's not something that the general public wants to think about, but ask any disaster responder and they will tell you. I can remember in nursing school being shown a video of people from the aftermath of a bombing. The person who was running the class was on the disaster response team for the Red Cross I believe, and he was very graphic in describing their decision making process in terms of who they treated and who they didn't. The basic commentary was "You don't waste time with this guy, because his massive head injury will ultimately kill him and you don't have the time to spend to treat him properly, nor do you have the resources to waste". Sounds callous, but guess what? If I was 70 or 80 years old, and wasting a bunch of time and medical resources on me would mean that 4 younger people might not get what they needed, then I would want them to help the younger people. I have lived my life...they have their life ahead of them.

Correct me if I am wrong, but when you are making a decision about who to treat in triage, you don't administer a lethal dose of drugs to those who you decide will probably die anyway?
 
when this came out the other day our local news showed an interview they had done with a dr at he NO airport during the days of evacuations he said this was happening all the time - when a patient would come in who had to be on ventilators (sp) or other various machines which they did not have they would give them morphine to make them comfortable, put them in the coolest area they could and let nature take its course so to speak. I can't imagine what they were going through at the hospitals, the airports or convention center - no electricity, no clean water and no way of knowing when or if help was coming Drs are just people like you and I just because they have an MD doesn't mean they can handle stressful horrific situations any better than you or I (DH is a Dr and is always freaked out about something ) they probably thought they were helping their patients and had no evil or bad intent when they gave them the drugs what would you have done?
 
declansdad said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but when you are making a decision about who to treat in triage, you don't administer a lethal dose of drugs to those who you decide will probably die anyway?

This is the case. During mass casualty triage, anyone who needs any "herioc measures" such as CPR is bypassed. Period. But once a medical professional or paraprofessional begins to treat someone, they are not allowed to leave that patient or discontinue treatment unless the patient is taken over by a more senior medical person--ie EMT hands off to paramedic who hands off to ER RN who hands off to ER resident who hands off to cardiac surgeon. The only other reasons that treatment can be discontinued is if a patient RMA's, gets better, or the professional is either in life threatening danger or is too physically exhausted to continue treatment. (I spent too much time helping DH study for his national EMT-B boards!)

That wasn't the case here. These patients were purposely given drugs which the medical professional who gave them knew would end their lives. To speed up evacuation. That's the part that gets me. "To speed up evacuation." I don't recall anywhere that the National Guard who ultimately evacuated that hospital ever made a decision that some people must be left behind...

Anne
 
I think they should be charged. The part I have the biggest problem with is the statement that it was done "to speed up evacuation." That, to me, is morally reprehensible.
 
I think that the prosecutors will have a difficult time getting any convictions.

With the conditions at the hospital in the wake of Katrina, I believe it would have been humane to help people pass away painlessly rather than to let them die in pain and distress.

I find it to be unbelievable that anyone was euthanized "to speed evacuations". If evacuations were currently undergoing, the most dire patients would have been evacuated first (including those euthanized, most likely). We will most likely find that patients were euthanized only under the most dire circumstances and not "to speed evacuations".

IMO, the DA's office should be spending less time on prosecuting those folks who were doing the best that they could and spend more time pursuing people who took advantage of others (like the rapists and murderers at the convention center, for instance).
 
ducklite said:
That wasn't the case here. These patients were purposely given drugs which the medical professional who gave them knew would end their lives. To speed up evacuation. That's the part that gets me. "To speed up evacuation." I don't recall anywhere that the National Guard who ultimately evacuated that hospital ever made a decision that some people must be left behind...

Anne

We don't why or IF this actually happened. The local prosecutuer(sp) is an elected official and until anything is proven I don't think any of us should take one persons word for what they allegde happened(to speed evacuation). I said this earlier but I will say it again, my recolection from other news reports is that the ME was unable to determine most causes of death due to the degredation of tissue samples, they simply could not tell if drugs were used to speed death or if was simply from lack of basic care(fluids temp. control, electricty for vents, dialysis etc.).
 
EthansMom said:
I find it to be unbelievable that anyone was euthanized "to speed evacuations". If evacuations were currently undergoing, the most dire patients would have been evacuated first (including those euthanized, most likely). We will most likely find that patients were euthanized only under the most dire circumstances and not "to speed evacuations".

IMO, the DA's office should be spending less time on prosecuting those folks who were doing the best that they could and spend more time pursuing people who took advantage of others (like the rapists and murderers at the convention center, for instance).

I think you said it very well!! I totally agree.
 


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