Should these people be charged with murder?

[Ms Marigny]

I think that the prosecutors will have a difficult time getting any convictions.

With the conditions at the hospital in the wake of Katrina, I believe it would have been humane to help people pass away painlessly rather than to let them die in pain and distress.

I find it to be unbelievable that anyone was euthanized "to speed evacuations". If evacuations were currently undergoing, the most dire patients would have been evacuated first (including those euthanized, most likely). We will most likely find that patients were euthanized only under the most dire circumstances and not "to speed evacuations".

IMO, the DA's office should be spending less time on prosecuting those folks who were doing the best that they could and spend more time pursuing people who took advantage of others (like the rapists and murderers at the convention center, for instance).

Amen!
"Speed up" what evacuation? Help did not come for three to four days! I find that hard to believe also- that is the first time I ever heard that excuse...the reports I always heard in the past were that the injections were given (if they were given) to aid those were were suffering and who wouldn't have survived being transported to another hospital. I don't think they would have been given to speed anything up.

 

[MScott1851]

I just pulled this affidavit up, that outlines why the women were indicted and arrested. It it turns out that these allegations were true, then my outlook on the whole situation is definitely going to change.

http://www.npr.org/documents/2006/jul/nolacharges.pdf

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I just pulled this affidavit up, that outlines why the women were indicted and arrested. It it turns out that these allegations were true, then my outlook on the whole situation is definitely going to change.

http://www.npr.org/documents/2006/jul/nolacharges.pdf

Thank you for that link.

Reading it is just heartbreaking and certainly makes it seem that something was not right about the situation.

 

[ead79]

If the allegations in that link are true, then I absolutely think they should be charged with second-degree murder. It certainly sounds like they just didn't want to have to deal with handling those patients, particularly the 380 pound patient. It's heartbreaking.

 

[Cool-Beans]

This is the case. During mass casualty triage, anyone who needs any "herioc measures" such as CPR is bypassed. Period. But once a medical professional or paraprofessional begins to treat someone, they are not allowed to leave that patient or discontinue treatment unless the patient is taken over by a more senior medical person--ie EMT hands off to paramedic who hands off to ER RN who hands off to ER resident who hands off to cardiac surgeon. The only other reasons that treatment can be discontinued is if a patient RMA's, gets better, or the professional is either in life threatening danger or is too physically exhausted to continue treatment. (I spent too much time helping DH study for his national EMT-B boards!)

That wasn't the case here. These patients were purposely given drugs which the medical professional who gave them knew would end their lives. To speed up evacuation. That's the part that gets me. "To speed up evacuation." I don't recall anywhere that the National Guard who ultimately evacuated that hospital ever made a decision that some people must be left behind...

Anne

Here we were thinking that we all had reasoned opinions. Sorry, Duck, didn't realize you had read EMT textbooks! Those must be much more realistic that the medical and nursing textbooks which are full of crap when compared to real life.

 

[Evil Queen]

Did they break the law? Yes

Should they serve time? No

Aftermaths of hurricanes in "normal" situations are tough-that situation, I would had been glad to know you helped ease the suffering of my loved one.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Here we were thinking that we all had reasoned opinions. Sorry, Duck, didn't realize you had read EMT textbooks! Those must be much more realistic that the medical and nursing textbooks which are full of crap when compared to real life.

Her last paragraph seems to be supported by the Affidavit in the link that was posted.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Aftermaths of hurricanes in "normal" situations are tough-that situation, I would had been glad to know you helped ease the suffering of my loved one.

It didn't seem all the patients who were killed were suffering according to the affidavit. One patient being administered something without his/her knowledge even.

 

[ducklite]

Here we were thinking that we all had reasoned opinions. Sorry, Duck, didn't realize you had read EMT textbooks! Those must be much more realistic that the medical and nursing textbooks which are full of crap when compared to real life.

I'm not at all sure what you are implying. My mom is an RN BSN, and I have several other medical professionals in my family, including a great Uncle who was a retired doctor, and a handful or other RN's. I am certainly not implying that I have more knowledge than a doctor or nurse, just relaying what my husbands textbooks said.

Anne

 

[Cool-Beans]

Her last paragraph seems to be supported by the Affidavit in the link that was posted.

I didn't see the patients' medical histories or the reasons why they were given the drugs. And most folks in the hospital are suffering. Usually a few are dying, too.

I'd like to hear from the doctors and nurses who were there what happened before I start saying they should be jailed.

I cannot and do not believe that doctors and nurses would kill people to make things easier for themselves. Not a thing I expect from people who devote their lives to helping sick folks.

If someone on here posted that ead79 and Buckalew were baby-killing devil worshipers, I'd want some serious back-up and to hear from Buck and Ead, too.

Just doesn't fit.

And to pipe up acting like YOU KNOW how everything should run when it is absolute chaos and you have absolutely NO medical background (except for all that extensive EMT textbook reading) is shameful. I know Duck likes to be helpful and wants to be able to make decisions, but there comes a time when you have to admit that you aren't well-versed and have no experience with something and maybe, just MAYBE people who studied for years and have years of experience MIGHT just know a little more than you do. This might be the time.

 

[Cool-Beans]

I'm not at all sure what you are implying. My mom is an RN BSN, and I have several other medical professionals in my family, including a great Uncle who was a retired doctor, and a handful or other RN's. I am certainly not implying that I have more knowledge than a doctor or nurse, just relaying what my husbands textbooks said.

Anne

I have a brother who is a lawyer, a Dad who fought in Vietnam, and a relative who designed rocketships for NASA. Also an uncle who heads a government thing in California. Doesn't mean i know diddley about any of that.

 

[Evil Queen]

It didn't seem all the patients who were killed were suffering according to the affidavit. One patient being administered something without his/her knowledge even.

No suffering after a hurricane, and apparently already medically needy?

BS

 

[Cool-Beans]

OK, I'm being a beeyatch. Nobody has to point it out. I see it.

I can just so easily see myself making those tough decisions and then having lawyers and other people who have no idea what it is like second-guess me or make me seem evil when I'm not.

So, I apologize and am backing out.

Sorry.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No suffering after a hurricane, and apparently already medically needy?

BS

I didn't realize that hospitalization during a hurricane all of a sudden meant that you were allowed to be killed by the hospital staff for convenience.

This is the problem if they are not found guilty. B/c then people will know that in an emergency, they can make determinations on who is worthy and who is not worthy of saving (not to be confused with who is able to be saved and who is not able to be saved). I don't want my life ended in an emergency b/c the medical staff felt I wasn't worthy.

If that is determined--then they should be guilty as charged and the precedence set that it is not okay to do that.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

OK, I'm being a beeyatch. Nobody has to point it out. I see it.

I can just so easily see myself making those tough decisions and then having lawyers and other people who have no idea what it is like second-guess me or make me seem evil when I'm not.

So, I apologize and am backing out.

Sorry.

That's okay--I can understand the frustration and I am certainly not trying to be a know it all.

I just dont want it to be legal to kill me without my knowledge or consent in an emergency (if that is what happened here) b/c I am not worthy of rescue. It seems that in at least one case--the patient (according to the witness in the affidavit)--didn't even know that was happening.

 

[ducklite]

I have a brother who is a lawyer, a Dad who fought in Vietnam, and a relative who designed rocketships for NASA. Also an uncle who heads a government thing in California. Doesn't mean i know diddley about any of that.

You need to untwist your panties. I related what I read in my DH's texts in relation to how triage works. I'd like anyone who is a medical professional to tell me if I was wrong in what I wrote, because I'll let the publisher of this text know.

And after reading the complaint that accompanied the warrants, I absolutely believe that at least one person was murdered because someone didn't want to deal with evacuating him. He was conscious and alert, and didn't appear to be "suffering" anymore than anyone would have been in that hell hole. They didn't even TRY to evacuate him. I guess it was too much work.

They allegedly played God. And now they'll pay for it.

Anne

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No suffering after a hurricane, and apparently already medically needy?

BS

DIRECTLY FROM THE AFFIDAVIT...

Dr. Pou said that Lifecare patients were not going to survive. However, DR advised affiant that Dr. Pou dd not appear to be familiar with the condition of the Lifecare patients. Dr. Pou advised DR that she was under the impression that patients were not aware of what was happening. DR informed Pou that one patient, EE was aware, conscious and alert, but he weighed 380 pounds and was paralyzed. Dr. Pou decided EE could not be evacuated. Dr Pou asked if one of DRs staff members would sedate him. DR advised that they had a nurse who EE knew. They briefly discussed the matter with the nurse, but DR decided that she did not want Lifecare staff involved.
…

Dr. Pou told DR “I want ya’ll to know I take full responsibility and ya’ll did a great job taking care of the patients.”

..
Ms Mulderick advised that some decisions had been made regarding the Lifecare patients and they should speak with Dr. Pou. SH and DR found Dr Pou and two nurses on the seventh floor in the Lifecare Physical Medicine charting room. Dr. Pou informed SH and DR that a decision had been made to administer lethal doses to the Lifecare patients remaining on the seventh floor. DR brought up the fact that the patient EE was alert and oriented. Dr Pou asked if someone from Lifecare could take with EE or sedate him. Initially someone mentioned that AG, a Lifecare RN, had a close relationship with EE, but AG refused to participate in sedating EE. At that point, DR decided that no Lifecare staff should be involved.

EE’s body was retrieved with the other 3 on 9/11. He was only 61 years old.


Now with all due respect..this does not seem even close to ethical.

I know I am just a layperson with no medical training...but so most likely will be the judge and the jury.

It seems these doctors/nurses have an uphill battle with their defense...but even his own regular nurses refused to take part in this. (I'm not sure of the job of DR).


And lastly--everyone in a hospital is "medically needy" otherwise they wouldn't be patients.


ETA: If EE were my relative I'd be pi$$ed as all get out if the sole reason he was murdered was b/c of his weight.

 

[Cool-Beans]

DIRECTLY FROM THE AFFIDAVIT...



EE’s body was retrieved with the other 3 on 9/11. He was only 61 years old.


Now with all due respect..this does not seem even close to ethical.

I know I am just a layperson with no medical training...but so most likely will be the judge and the jury.

It seems these doctors/nurses have an uphill battle with their defense...but even his own regular nurses refused to take part in this. (I'm not sure of the job of DR).


And lastly--everyone in a hospital is "medically needy" otherwise they wouldn't be patients.

Still don't know the guy's medical history or why the decision was made. Maybe he weighed 380 lbs because he was fat, maybe he was 3rd spacing, maybe his kidneys had failed and they couldn't send him to dialysis...who knows.

Like I said before, IF these folks truly decided not to bother with people just to make things easier for themselves, they should go to jail.

But if they didn't, they shouldn't be penalized in any way.

I just gotta wait and see.

 

[Evil Queen]

DIRECTLY FROM THE AFFIDAVIT...



EE’s body was retrieved with the other 3 on 9/11. He was only 61 years old.


Now with all due respect..this does not seem even close to ethical.

I know I am just a layperson with no medical training...but so most likely will be the judge and the jury.

It seems these doctors/nurses have an uphill battle with their defense...but even his own regular nurses refused to take part in this. (I'm not sure of the job of DR).


And lastly--everyone in a hospital is "medically needy" otherwise they wouldn't be patients.

And thank you for making a double post to my one...you are right (in your mind) and I'm just right. Good day. I think you needed to maybe be there and walk in their shoes.

I did say it was illegal, just don't agree with jail time.......

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And thank you for making a double post to my one...you are right (in your mind) and I'm just right. Good day. I think you needed to maybe be there and walk in their shoes.

I did say it was illegal, just don't agree with jail time.......

You did--but you seemed to justify their actions.

And I only posted once and then edited--no idea what double posting you are referring to.

ETA: just double check since I was falsely accused and I seemed to have responded once each to two separate posts you have made.