Should the Pope apologize??

[sodaseller]

You're embarrrasing yourself again. You claim Drum is dumb or dishonest in citing an analog between the number of Americans that belive federal involvment in 9/11, which Harris somewo uses as proof as one side of et political spectrum's failure to take teh otherwise undefined Islamic threat seriously, with the number of American that belive te Feds are wiothholding evidence of alien life

Here is Harris' attempt at reasoning

At its most extreme, liberal denial has found expression in a growing subculture of conspiracy theorists who believe that the atrocities of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government. A nationwide poll conducted by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a third of Americans suspect that the federal government "assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East;" 16% believe that the twin towers collapsed not because fully-fueled passenger jets smashed into them but because agents of the Bush administration had secretly rigged them to explode.

Here are the poll results upon which he relies

There are also accusations being made following the 9/11 terrorist attack. One of these is:
People in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted to United States to go to war in the Middle East.*

Very likely 16%
Somewhat likely 20%
Not likely 59%
Don't know 5%

Total likelies - 36%.

The collapse if the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings.*

Very likely 6%
Somewhat likely 10%
Unlikely 77%
Don't know 6%
Other response 1%

Total likelies - 16%

Kevin's point

The federal government is withholding proof of the existence of intelligent life from others planets?*

Vyer likely 16%
Somewhat likely 22%
Unlikely 54%
Don't know 8%

Total likelies - 38%. The difference is statistically insignificant but still a greater number of people believe the government is withholding evidence of intelligent life than in 9/11. That's exactly Drum's pont. Whoever you are quoting is teh one that is lying or didn't look at it.
And don't forget the disjunctive nature of the main question, which exaggerates the difference. And also don't forget that the primary c9/11 coonspiracy theoirists are none other than the Vice-President, who still can't deny a Sadaam -AQ connection

You just made a fool of yourself again.

I have a meeting this am - will address the remainder of Harris' idiocy later

 

[Charade]

As an Ameican, I'd just like to say it's RICH that any one of us is calling any other culture on EARTH debased and barbaric.

Then stop being one. I'm sure some family in Iran will adopt you.

 

[shrubber]

Why would anyone really expect the pope to apologize? NEWS FLASH people.....The Pope is Catholic!!!!!! obviously Benedict thinks Mohammed was full of [expletive deleted], or he wouldn't be the pope.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Wow who would have thought a post about the Pope would have gotten to 29 pages!!!!

 

[LuvDuke]

I want to help you out on this one because it is a valid question. There is a perfectly good and clear answer that I will make very brief so that your limited attention span can attempt to grasp it.

Here it is:

Ready:

WE HAVE NO OTHER OPTION!!!

Changing a debased barbaric culture that has been propagandized for generations does not happen overnight, nor does it happen in 3 years. Your lack of historical context and lack of patience on these matters of global importance is truly impressive.

I always complain about the lack of moderate voices in the Islamic world, well, guess what, they're all in Baghdad trying to form a democratic state with our help!!

We have no option. None. We cannot change them from the outside, and they have no interest in changing from the inside. All they want to do is conquer us, convert us, kill us, etc. We can't negotiate with such people as there is only one negotiation that can occur and has always failed.

Here is the negotiation that has always failed.

USA: Please stop blowing us up, please stop killing our civilians, please stop attacking our planes and interests around the world. Gosh, we'll even help you build infrastructure in your failed states so that your people won't want to overthrow all of you dictators and tyrants.
Arab/Islamic World: No. Allahu-akbar!

So, you see, I think, if you have the capacity to see anything, that the situation leaves us with few options.

Go ahead, repost! Ready!

You're going to make it brief? What happened? Did you lose your "paid by the word" contract?

Since you're so hot to trot to take on the Muslim world, why don't you stop off at the local recruiting station and put your money where your mouth is. Maybe you can get a package deal: You, Louie, and Mrs. Chamberlain.

In case you haven't noticed, other than as a punchline, I don't share ideas with hysterics who are legends in their own mind and have a bad case of verbal diarrhea.

However, here's a piece of parting advice. Do yourself a favor: Stick to the long posts. They're more entertaining and, at least, you can pretend you're a comedian.

 

[LuvDuke]

Sorry, but I prefer to remain to be thought of as an ignoramus.

Oh no, you've revealed your secret plan. You pretend to be an ignoramus, but you're really dumb like a fox!

Just kidding, John.

 

[LuvDuke]

seems an odd approach on your part to criticise the poster for posting an article written by another by in turn responding with an article written by someone else. rank hypocrisy doesn't mean that the hypocrite "ranks" in the military sense.

the silence on this thread from the leftists in attendence in response to the harris piece is a good signal that folks were rendered somewhat speechless by it.

it's easy to criticise me and others for posting exactly the same arguments that mr harris delivers, but it is near impossible to dismiss them when they come from a self-proclaimed proud liberal. the silence on the thread speaks volumes.

your approach is to smash every argument every iota of proof that supports the thesis of a threat from a growing islamist movement whose only goal is our destruction. your purpose in this is unfathomable. but this is the core of the conspiracy theorist, everything that is rational must be smashed and occams razor thrown out the window as the burden of proof that clearly lies with you can never ever be met by you.

sorry, it won't work this time. the liberals clearly look unbalanced and morally and ethically confused in all of this, especially when the confusion is so clearly illustrated by articles such as mr harris' and every day events across the world.

You can't make this stuff up.

"the silence on this thread from the leftists in attendence in response to the harris piece is a good signal that folks were rendered somewhat speechless by it."

There's several possibilities:

1) this thread has pretty much been milked for all its worth

2) we no longer give a ****

3) we're not interested in being in your playgroup anymore

4) we don't want to cross over into being enablers by continueing to feed your delusional overblown ego

Get over yourself, Louie/Kendra.

 

[bsnyder]

You're embarrrasing yourself again. You claim Drum is dumb or dishonest in citing an analog between the number of Americans that belive federal involvment in 9/11, which Harris somewo uses as proof as one side of et political spectrum's failure to take teh otherwise undefined Islamic threat seriously, with the number of American that belive te Feds are wiothholding evidence of alien life

Here is Harris' attempt at reasoning



Here are the poll results upon which he relies



Total likelies - 36%.



Total likelies - 16%

Kevin's point



Total likelies - 38%. The difference is statistically insignificant but still a greater number of people believe the government is withholding evidence of intelligent life than in 9/11. That's exactly Drum's pont. Whoever you are quoting is teh one that is lying or didn't look at it.
And don't forget the disjunctive nature of the main question, which exaggerates the difference. And also don't forget that the primary c9/11 coonspiracy theoirists are none other than the Vice-President, who still can't deny a Sadaam -AQ connection

You just made a fool of yourself again.

No, Drum attempted to mislead (and that's being charitable). According to the poll, 16% of Americans believe the U.S. Government orchestrated the attacks. But 36%, well over a third, believe they either orchestrated them, or they didn't stop them so they could go to war in the Middle East. Either one is still a conspiracy theory, with a suprising number of people subscribing to it, and one that points damningly to the Left.

"What has amazed me is not that there are conspiracy theories, but that they didn't seem to be getting any purchase among the American public until the last year or so," Fenster said. "Although the Iraq war was not directly related to the 9/11 attacks, people are now looking back at 9/11 with much more skepticism than they used to."

Conspiracy-believing participants in the poll agree their suspicions are recent.

I have a meeting this am - will address the remainder of Harris' idiocy later

How convenient for you - too bad you didn't address it to begin with. Perhaps when your meeting is over someone will have written something you can quote that actual addresses Harris's concerns. Kevin Drum certainly didn't. I'll be busy the rest of the day, but I look forward to seeing what your internet searches come up with.

 

[LuvDuke]

Ok, so you are hostile to anyone who believes differently than you. That must make you very proud.

So nice of you to twist what I said. What a nice example you set of the commandment: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

Good job! You do yourself and your religious beliefs proud.

FYI, I don't give a crap what your religious beliefs are, or for that matter, anyone's religious beliefs. The only thing I respect is your right to have them.

And, please, get the true cross chip off your shoulder.

 

[Fitswimmer]

So nice of you to twist what I said. What a nice example you set of the commandment: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. You stated that you were anti-religion, and I understood that to mean that you were anti-religious people as well. If I drew that conclusion in error I apologize.

The only thing I respect is your right to have them.

And I respect your right not to have them-without insulting you or your choice.

 

[LuvDuke]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. You stated that you were anti-religion, and I understood that to mean that you were anti-religious people as well. If I drew that conclusion in error I apologize.



And I respect your right not to have them-without insulting you or your choice.

Thank you. I appreciate your apology. In this heated climate, it takes a big person to admit they were wrong. You are doing yourself and your religious beliefs proud.

When it comes to religion, I believe all should have the right practice as they see fit within Constitutional limits. In that respect, this non-religious person is a good friend to religion.

Again, thank you. It took courage to do what you did.

And for the record, I think these Muslim fundamentalists, who are killing, burning, and protesting are insane. Or maybe crazy like a fox because I do believe it isn't religious fervor that guides them, but the quest for political power.

As one who lived in the Middle East, I saw firsthand the poverty, illiteracy, and ignorance that's rampant in the Arab world. Some of these people are in the same position as Christians during the Dark Ages: whatever's on the other side has got to be better than what they have on earth. That lure and that promise is very powerful.

There is a growing reform movement within Islam, but it's in a race for time similar to what we're seeing with the Chinese. Which is going to topple first: the regime or the reform movement?

Btw, you better sit down for this one: I don't believe Pope Benedict owed anyone an apology. I believed he showed bad judgment in his choice of words. but that's where I draw the line. These people have no justification for what they're doing and I believe most in the Muslim world believe that also. They have a civil war that needs to be fought among themselves over who and what is going dominate Islam for the next millenia. And we can't help them with that. That's an internal fight within the family.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I knew we could get along!

It is sad that there are people whose lives are so full of despair that the ONLY thing they have to hold onto is the hope of a reward after death. In the Islamic world, it seems that the poor are the ones with explosives tied to them-not the leadership. It benefits that leadership to keep a steady supply of willing martyrs and thus maintian their hold on the masses.

It's always about money and power when it comes to this kind of thing. Hey, the Crusades were about trade routes. The leadership just used the "God angle" to get more volunteers.

 

[Charade]

I knew we could get along!

Don't do it! She's like a black widow. Luring you in to her seductive web...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
and then she eats you.

 

[LuvDuke]

Don't do it! She's like a black widow. Luring you in to her seductive web...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
and then she eats you.

I'm speechless or have to remain so in this forum!

 

[eclectics]

But I do see a lot of people sticking their heads in the sand and saying the Pope should be more careful with his (scholarly and non-violent) words with nary a critcal peep about the Religion of the Perpetually Outraged.

And I see a lot of people dismissing my idea as unrealistic but I have yet to see any of you show me specifically what you would do. All I hear is a lot of outrage but no solutions.

 

[Kendra17]

And I see a lot of people dismissing my idea as unrealistic but I have yet to see any of you show me specifically what you would do. All I hear is a lot of outrage but no solutions.

At least you admit there's a problem. And, it looks as if luvduk, also, admits there's a problem. The thing is, for so many others here, it SEEMS as if they will NOT even admit there's a problem anywhere.

So, here's my solution: We have to admit there's an "enemy". Until this is at least admitted by most on the left, I'm not sure what we can really do. Too many are defending the murderers and want to point out what all the Christians have done, how bad America is, etc. But, assuming we could all agree on the enemy and admit how bad Political Islam is. . .

My dh and I went to dinner the other night with some real activists. They have been politically active since the 60s and they were liberals. They marched with MLK. They BROUGHT Buddhism to our city (they are the "father' and "mother" of Buddhism here, although they are no longer buddhists, since 2001). He's a professor at a University here. He's an author on Islam. She is a researcher and has briefed homeland security on terrorism.

I'm trying to let you know they are liberals, or were. They recognize the threat, too.

His idea (and there is a big meeting here planned in January) is that we get rid of the Kabah. He believes that once this happens, there is no more Hajj. And, once there is no more Haj, no more pilgrimage, it breaks one of the pillars of Islam without going to war on an entire group of people. He thinks that Islam needs to 'fall'. And, he believes that by breaking one of the Pillars of Islam, it can fall. They are not permitted to pray to a desecrated altar, so if the Kabah is gone. . .

He believes that the Prayer pillar will be gone, too, although I don't understand this one quite as much, since they can still pray. But, they won't be facing Mecca anymore, since the Kabah would be gone.

I don't remember everything he talked about because he talked about a LOT.

Now, I'm suggesting an idea that does NOT include going into lots of countries. It has to do with breaking the religion, causing the fall of Islam, possibly.

(The other 3 pillars are charity (only to other Muslims), bearing witness to Allah, and fasting during Ramadan. )

I am thinking that some on the board will be horrified at this idea, but this idea admits there's a problem and suggests a solution without HUGE war.

Remember that Islam is not just a religion. Nobody here CARES what people believe in their minds/hearts. We care that it is ALSO a POLITICAL-- and violent-- system. It's the political system of Islam we're fighting. They have entwined the two, so it's difficult to impossible to reason with them (likelihood of another summit working).

 

[Fitswimmer]

Remember that Islam is not just a religion. Nobody here CARES what people believe in their minds/hearts. We care that it is ALSO a POLITICAL system. It's the political system of Islam we're fighting. They have entwined the two, so it's difficult to impossible to reason with them (likelihood of another summit working).

I don't think you can separate the political from the religious when it comes to Islam. From what I understand, it is an essential part of the faith. The idea of separation of church and state is alien to them.

You're right, the idea is horrifiying. Who are we to eliminate a religion?? And who's next?? After Islam, who's next on the chopping block?? Depending on who is in power it could be anyone from the Christians to the Athiests!

 

[Kendra17]

I don't think you can separate the political from the religious when it comes to Islam. From what I understand, it is an essential part of the faith. The idea of separation of church and state is alien to them.

You're right, the idea is horrifiying. Who are we to eliminate a religion?? And who's next?? After Islam, who's next on the chopping block?? Depending on who is in power it could be anyone from the Christians to the Athiests!

It wouldn't be eliminating a religion. Again, people can believe what they want to believe and this is an important distinction to make. I am not sure I want to debate this so much, because it's an idea I didn't come up with and I don't understand the ramifications fully.

But, it's instead of fighting these people 'wherever they are'. We don't want people to die, we want them to stop killing us. There's a difference.

We don't like war. And, fighting them directly would be the only other way to just stop it. What I think is a better solution, would be to change their ideology. Bombing the Kabah could force them to change their ideology. Yes, it seems un-PC, but it's a different solution than war. And, it would probably work better than a summit.

It's NOT PC. Any solution besides a summit IS NOT PC. There is NOT a POLITICALLY CORRECT solution. ANYWHERE.

Ignoring it, and "taking our hits" isn't too pc, either, remember.

 

[LuvDuke]

At least you admit there's a problem. And, it looks as if luvduk, also, admits there's a problem. The thing is, for so many others here, it SEEMS as if they will NOT even admit there's a problem anywhere.

So, here's my solution: We have to admit there's an "enemy". Until this is at least admitted by most on the left, I'm not sure what we can really do. Too many are defending the murderers and want to point out what all the Christians have done, how bad America is, etc. But, assuming we could all agree on the enemy and admit how bad Political Islam is. . .

My dh and I went to dinner the other night with some real activists. They have been politically active since the 60s and they were liberals. They marched with MLK. They BROUGHT Buddhism to our city (they are the "father' and "mother" of Buddhism here, although they are no longer buddhists, since 2001). He's a professor at a University here. He's an author on Islam. She is a researcher and has briefed homeland security on terrorism.

I'm trying to let you know they are liberals, or were. They recognize the threat, too.

His idea (and there is a big meeting here planned in January) is that we get rid of the Kabah. He believes that once this happens, there is no more Hajj. And, once there is no more Haj, no more pilgrimage, it breaks one of the pillars of Islam without going to war on an entire group of people. He thinks that Islam needs to 'fall'. And, he believes that by breaking one of the Pillars of Islam, it can fall. They are not permitted to pray to a desecrated altar, so if the Kabah is gone. . .

He believes that the Prayer pillar will be gone, too, although I don't understand this one quite as much, since they can still pray. But, they won't be facing Mecca anymore, since the Kabah would be gone.

I don't remember everything he talked about because he talked about a LOT.

Now, I'm suggesting an idea that does NOT include going into lots of countries. It has to do with breaking the religion, causing the fall of Islam, possibly.

(The other 3 pillars are charity (only to other Muslims), bearing witness to Allah, and fasting during Ramadan. )

I am thinking that some on the board will be horrified at this idea, but this idea admits there's a problem and suggests a solution without HUGE war.

Remember that Islam is not just a religion. Nobody here CARES what people believe in their minds/hearts. We care that it is ALSO a POLITICAL-- and violent-- system. It's the political system of Islam we're fighting. They have entwined the two, so it's difficult to impossible to reason with them (likelihood of another summit working).

FYI, I always said there was a problem as have many others. You were too blinded by your self-delusional brilliance to notice.

I am thinking that some on the board will be horrified at this idea, but this idea admits there's a problem and suggests a solution without HUGE war.

Whoa, had me going there for a moment. You were actually starting to make sense and I thought it was a trend.

So, let's examine your latest flash of brilliance: destroy the Prayer pillar in Mecca, Islam will come tumbling down, and the problem will be solved. And you're serious.

For just a moment, let me pretend you really are serious and this isn't a result of liquid libation. So, ahhh, when you destroy the Prayer pillar, do you actually believe 1.5 billion Muslims are just going to sit there with their thumbs up their ***** and see the error of their ways? Is that it?

I'm going to give you an opportunity here to either plead sarcasm, satire, or insanity. Do yourself and your credibility a favor and take one of those outs. Opportunity is knocking at your door: answer it.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Bombing the Kabah could force them to change their ideology.

It could also cause every Muslim in every country to rise up and become militant-now you're fighting millions all over the world. If the Muslims bomb St. Peter's because they are angry at the Pope, what do you think the reaction would be? Catholics don't pray to St Peter's but it is the place where the head of our Church resides. I'm thinking that might get a few Catholics angry enough to kill. The Muslims actually pray to this site, even mainstream Muslims will see that as an act of war against their faith and would seek retribution.