Should teacher be fired

[DisneyBamaFan]

I wouldn't mind a rule that followed along these lines. A teacher's performance is assessed by how his/her students perform on standardized tests relative to their past performance and that of their peers. In other words, if a group of students performed significantly worse than they did in the prior year while their peers in other classes didn't show a similar decline, I'd blame the teacher.

Even then, I wouldn't just fire him/her. I would work with them on a performance plan and assess what could be done to remedy the situation. If it didn't improve, then I would fire the teacher...

I agree with this, but what if the entire school is failing, like the school in RI? Makes analysis more difficult...

 

[agnes!]

I think the biggest issue with this idea (firing teachers whose students don't pass the test and giving "merit" pay to those who do) are looking at the issue of success too narrowly. This isn't to say that there isn't a role for standardized testing. However, this role should be a limited part of a bigger picture of student success.

With failing/passing scores as the measure of success (and my job on the line based on those numbers), you can be sure I'll make sure my students pass those tests--but I can't promise that they will have really learned a whole lot.

I have seen far to many schools (and teachers) narrow the focus of their curriculum and teaching style to address only concepts that "are going to be tested" and only in a format that will achieve the highest test scores. Yet, successful passage of standardized testing does not necessarily equate with well-grounded students who are able to apply this knowledge in thoughtful and practical ways. We are assessing whether they can regurgitate content-- not whether they really understand it and use it to influence their understanding of the world.

The way that most standardized tests in the U.S. currently assess student really doesn't get at a student's development of 21st century skills (problem solving, information technologies, cultural appreciation, ability to work in groups, shifting leadership models, etc). However, these are the kinds of skills that 21st century students will need to achieve in their professional lives.

My two cents.....

THIS ^^^^ .

Also, take a look at the "Race To Nowhere" website...very interesting stuff.
http://www.racetonowhere.com/

agnes!

 

[KramBerries]

I agree with this, but what if the entire school is failing, like the school in RI? Makes analysis more difficult...

It is definitely harder to assess an entire school rather than a single teacher within a school. The simple truth is that some student bodies are harder to teach than others. In assessing teachers, you can look at how those same students performed with other teachers. In assessing schools, especially at the elementary level, that isn't as easy.

The parents could probably assess reasonably well. If you gave them more of a choice in which schools their children attended, poorly run schools would be more obvious because parents would take their children from them. You see that to some extent already. People with the means and interest either send their kids to private schools or move to where the public schools are good. The bad schools are left with the children of parents that don't care or don't have viable options.

 

[luvmy3]

I wouldn't say it is exactly "rare". Teachers do burn out and get tired, it gets close of retirement and some (not all) stop caring, things happen.

You are right that learning begins at a very young age and parents should make it a priority from the beginning; but if a teacher has half a class or more failing chances are that it is not the fault of ALL the parents nor is it the fault of ALL the students. There is only going to be so many common factors in a classroom of kids and the teacher is one of those common factors.

Not if that teacher just happen to get alot of poor students in their class one particular year. You can't judge a teacher's performance without judging each student's past performance, and the teacher's as well. If suddenly the majority of straight A students in the class are getting C's and D's in this teacher's then sure it could be the teacher. However, if its just poor students continuing to do poorly, or the teacher has had years and years of top performing students but then one year she/he just happens not to, then the teacher may not be to blame. I have no issue with evaluating a teacher's performance, but they shouldn't be fired based on the standardized test scores, or the performance of one year's class. The overall record of all their students (past and present) should be taken into consideration before making such a decision. I didn't see the story the OP did so I'm not sure what they were saying could be cause for firing, so I don't know if it was just looking at these tests, or taking everything into account.

 

[PeterPan09]

What if teachers had to meet the kind of standards that people who work in jobs without tenure have to meet? Think about the policies that exist in your workplace, would they work in education?

Most of us have annual or semi-annual reviews where our performance is discussed, if there are problems that need to be handled more immediately, there are usually processes for that as well. For most of us, there are things that would get us bounced out on our butts immedately without question-no "unpaid leave".

 

[Liberty Belle]

Of course not, its not the teachers fault their students are failing, its the parent's.

That's just as much of a stretch. There are many reasons students fail. A teacher should not be fired based on the assessment of her students, though. She should be observed to see what she is doing right and what she is doing wrong, given feedback and help and encouragment if she needs it.

 

[luvsJack]

Not if that teacher just happen to get alot of poor students in their class one particular year. You can't judge a teacher's performance without judging each student's past performance, and the teacher's as well. If suddenly the majority of straight A students in the class are getting C's and D's in this teacher's then sure it could be the teacher. However, if its just poor students continuing to do poorly, or the teacher has had years and years of top performing students but then one year she/he just happens not to, then the teacher may not be to blame. I have no issue with evaluating a teacher's performance, but they shouldn't be fired based on the standardized test scores, or the performance of one year's class. The overall record of all their students (past and present) should be taken into consideration before making such a decision. I didn't see the story the OP did so I'm not sure what they were saying could be cause for firing, so I don't know if it was just looking at these tests, or taking everything into account.

If a teacher gets a class of traditionally low performing students and he/she does everything within his/her power to break that tradition, no the teacher should not be fired, but he/she should not have a problem being observed to make sure it is not his/her teaching methods either. I believe that it would be more rare for a teacher to get an entire class of low performers than it would be for a failing class not to be, at least partially, the responsiblity of the teacher.

My niece's daughter was having trouble in math in the 3rd grade. After talking with other parents, she found out that all the students in 3rd grade were having trouble with math. On the next report card every student had a D or an F. Should they have just assumed "it must be our kids"? Now, these parents went to the principal and he went to the teacher. The problem was at least partially corrected and the majority of the students ended the year with at least a B in math. But, had it not been corrected on the teacher's part; should that teacher have been fired? Yes, I believe so. The problem was found to lie with the teacher and she should have corrected it. With older kids, or in a bigger school where the parents may not communicate as much the problems could have gone the length of the school year and most, if not all, of these kids could have ended up with a failing grade in math.

Teaching the students is the job of the teacher. Their success means that he/she succeeded in his/her job. If the students do not master the skills to pass the grade or subject, then the teacher has failed at his/her job. If this happens over and over again or in large numbers, the teacher should be held accountable and should be let go if necessary.

If a coach in the same school loses game after game--he loses his job. Why should we not hold the classroom teacher to the same accountablity?

 

[luvmy3]

That's just as much of a stretch. There are many reasons students fail. A teacher should not be fired based on the assessment of her students, though. She should be observed to see what she is doing right and what she is doing wrong, given feedback and help and encouragment if she needs it.

yes I admit that, you are right the blame can't be placed solely on the teacher or the parent. However I am a firm believer that its my job as a parent to make sure my child is the best student they can be, its not the teachers.

If a teacher gets a class of traditionally low performing students and he/she does everything within his/her power to break that tradition, no the teacher should not be fired, but he/she should not have a problem being observed to make sure it is not his/her teaching methods either. I believe that it would be more rare for a teacher to get an entire class of low performers than it would be for a failing class not to be, at least partially, the responsiblity of the teacher.

My niece's daughter was having trouble in math in the 3rd grade. After talking with other parents, she found out that all the students in 3rd grade were having trouble with math. On the next report card every student had a D or an F. Should they have just assumed "it must be our kids"? Now, these parents went to the principal and he went to the teacher. The problem was at least partially corrected and the majority of the students ended the year with at least a B in math. But, had it not been corrected on the teacher's part; should that teacher have been fired? Yes, I believe so. The problem was found to lie with the teacher and she should have corrected it. With older kids, or in a bigger school where the parents may not communicate as much the problems could have gone the length of the school year and most, if not all, of these kids could have ended up with a failing grade in math.

Teaching the students is the job of the teacher. Their success means that he/she succeeded in his/her job. If the students do not master the skills to pass the grade or subject, then the teacher has failed at his/her job. If this happens over and over again or in large numbers, the teacher should be held accountable and should be let go if necessary.

If a coach in the same school loses game after game--he loses his job. Why should we not hold the classroom teacher to the same accountablity?

Because when someone is selected to be on a sports team its done because they have the ability to excell at their sport and were chosen because of it. Students aren't selected. If students were hand picked, then we wouldn't be having these kinds of problems

I also would argue that teaching in the classroom isn't the only thing that equals success. There needs to be accountability and support at home for a student to succeed, there is only so much a teacher can do without it being backed up at home. I am not saying there aren't bad teachers, I just don't think that the majority of classes that are failing can put the blame solely on the teacher, and I certainly don't believe that they should be fired based on standardized test grades, or 1 year of poor student performance.
Now in the case of your niece that very well may have been the teacher, but if all her students ended up with a B after she corrected her probelm, why do you think she should have been fired?

 

[gina2000]

Teaching is the only profession where a teacher's success is based on someone else's performance. And that someone else is not hand-picked for the position (such as pro football players), has no financial incentive to succeed (such as pro football players) and may not reap the rewards of his/her success for many years (try explaining THAT to a 12 year old!)

Teachers must teach students who do not want to be there. Teachers must inspire students who may be hungry, physically and/or emotionally abused, subjected to drug/alcohol abuse, live in unsafe housing, and deal with a myriad of other uncontrollable atrocities on a regular basis. I can't imagine judging someone's performance on such a moving target. And there are more problems out there than you can imagine....even in good school districts.

Yes, there are incompetent teachers. Yes, there are wonderful, inspirational teachers. But even the best teacher in the world may not be able to inspire a child whose personal life is chaotic and unstable.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Teaching is the only profession where a teacher's success is based on someone else's performance. And that someone else is not hand-picked for the position (such as pro football players), has no financial incentive to succeed (such as pro football players) and may not reap the rewards of his/her success for many years (try explaining THAT to a 12 year old!)

Teachers must teach students who do not want to be there. Teachers must inspire students who may be hungry, physically and/or emotionally abused, subjected to drug/alcohol abuse, live in unsafe housing, and deal with a myriad of other uncontrollable atrocities on a regular basis. I can't imagine judging someone's performance on such a moving target. And there are more problems out there than you can imagine....even in good school districts.

Yes, there are incompetent teachers. Yes, there are wonderful, inspirational teachers. But even the best teacher in the world may not be able to inspire a child whose personal life is chaotic and unstable.

Try managing a bunch of adult women if you want a real challenge...

just kidding - I think...

 

[C.Ann]

Initially I would say of course not- however if an entire class is failing- then a teacher should be observed to see if the teaching style might be the issue. Fired? Not sure but observed - yes.

I think that if there is an ongoing issue with kids failing in a particular teacher's class then someonthing needs to be done. In that case the fault probably lies with the teacher and not the kids or parents. If the teacher cannot do his or her job then yes, they should be fired.

If it's an entire class, then the problem likely is the teacher's abilities.. Just like every other occupation, there are good teachers and bad teachers..

 

[monsterkitty]

I agree with this, but what if the entire school is failing, like the school in RI? Makes analysis more difficult...

I am proud to say I teach at "failing school". Let me give you our statistics, and you will understand why we are failing:

90% of our students qualify for free or reduced lunch.
60% of our students are English as a Second Language learners.
Of that 60%, about 25% speak no English.
We are the district "magnet" school for students with severe and profound needs. Students who are required to take the state test but cannot even write their names.
5% of our kids are homeless. These are the kids we know about. Our area has the highest foreclosure rate in the metro area. Many of these foreclosures are on rental houses and the tennants, our students and their families, have been paying rent but the owners do not make the house payments.

These are not excuses, these are facts. Our state does not look at the growth the students make our our state mandated tests - they only look to see if our kids are "proficient." If the kids could take the tests in Spanish, Russian, or any other language they speak, they probably would be closer to proficient. However, that is not reality and I don' think it should be.

If you were to look at student growth at our school and not proficiency, then we are a passing school. 80% of our kids continually make 9 months growth on the tests. However, since they are still not proficient at grade level, we are a failing school.

So, should we all be fired because we are a "failing school"?

btw, are there teachers who should be fired? Yup!

 

[Ember]

I would add "or lazy" except you can't call them that. The acceptable euphemism is "work inhibited."

yes I admit that, you are right the blame can't be placed solely on the teacher or the parent. However I am a firm believer that its my job as a parent to make sure my child is the best student they can be, its not the teachers.

I have rarely heard such an acceptance of personal responsibility around here. You know, with an attitude like that your children are going to grow up to be responsible adults. They may even start to think that if there's a problem it's not automatically the fault of someone else. What is the world coming to... Raising kids like that...

On a related note, I had a parent ask me today why her snowflake didn't do better on the spelling test. I responded with concern and asked if they had practiced hard. (Because if the child had practiced and was still doing poorly, there may be something that needs to be done.) Nope, the child hadn't practiced at all! But it was still my fault somehow...

 

[MM27]

What if teachers had to meet the kind of standards that people who work in jobs without tenure have to meet? Think about the policies that exist in your workplace, would they work in education?

Most of us have annual or semi-annual reviews where our performance is discussed, if there are problems that need to be handled more immediately, there are usually processes for that as well. For most of us, there are things that would get us bounced out on our butts immedately without question-no "unpaid leave".

I teach, I have tenure and believe it or not, I get reviews of my performance just like every other profession. We have observations where a principal, director of elem. ed or the superintendent will come in for up to 80 minutes at a time. If they observe for math or literacy they stay that full 80 minutes, which is a double period. It depends on your district contract how many observations a teacher gets and in my district non tenured teachers get more than those of us that are tenured. We also get an evaluation each year. If a bad teacher gets tenure, I would blame the principal(s) that are evaluating them. I've seen teachers let go before getting tenured.

I teach two classes. One class has 7 kids that are in enrichment, 7 kids in Title I and the rest that I would classify as "average". My other class has 11 kids in Title I, 5 inclusion students and the rest that fall into the "below average" category. I am the same teacher. I can tell you right now that the kids in the first class will be fine when they do the state testing. I would be disappointed if there is not 100% proficiency. The second class, I don't even want to think about those results The reason my partner and I were given this class...because we can handle them. Because many times low students and behavior problems are one in the same. The class is filled with boys that have major behavioral issues. I teach the best I can and I put the same effort, maybe even a bit more, into that class. However, I can only do so much.

That's what people don't understand when they talk about merit pay. Things are not always as fair and equal as you believe.

 

[pigletz]

Warning: Very long vent ahead. Feel free to completely skip this post.
I'm going to put myself on the line here. I teach in a school that has some of the lowest test scores in the state and I've never had more than 50% of my students pass the test. There is so much more that goes into whether or not students pass the test than just the ability of the teacher.

I had a very long response typed out and then decided that no one would want to read that much. I do still want people to understand what some of us are up against.

1. NO attendance policy: A large number of students miss 80-100 days EVERY year. As long as you sign up for summer school, you will pass to the next grade. Whether you actually attend summer school doesn't matter.
2. Transient students: We gain and lose students weekly. Many students who show up on my results were only with me for a few months and sometimes only a few weeks or even days.
3. Major gang problem/constant fighting: We have not had a fight free day yet this school year. It's not just the kids either. The number of parents who come to school to either encourage their kids to fight or come to fight kids themselves is increasing.
4. Low vocabularies: I can teach many new words, but they are easily forgotten when you don't use them outside of school. Many of my students understand the material but get confused by some of the very wordy questions on the state test.
5. Little to no parenting and discipline at home: I have parents who are shocked when I call to say that there child is late to school everyday. They're shocked not because they didn't know their child was coming late but because they didn't know what time school started. I could spend all day on stories about how parents frequently sabotoge any chance their child has.
6. Lack of personal responsibility: I can spend hours planning great lessons, but if you don't put any effort you're not going to get much out of it.
7. Lack of background knowledge: My district decided to eliminate science and social studies at the elementary level. I have barely enough time to teach my curriculum (8th grade American history) without having to go back to what they should have learned in 3rd or 4th grade.
8. The test covers 6th-8th grade. Even if they ace all of the 8th grade questions, they'll still fail if they miss all the other ones. The results though only show my name. That means 6th and 7th grade social studies teachers get a free pass. How is that fair?
9. The test doesn't count for the students. Even a zero on the test won't keep them from passing to the next grade. A large number of students will bubble in random bubbles and then go to sleep.

This still ended up much longer than I planned. Let me say that I take full responsibility for any weaknesses that I have as a teacher. I am constantly working to find better ways to teach my content and to motivate my students. One other thing that I wanted to point out is that we sometimes don't see the results of our efforts while the students are in our classes. High school teachers love to get my students. They tell me that the students are well prepared for high school social studies and that they are enthusiastic about the subject. The majority also pass the 10th grade graduation test on the first try. These things tell me much more about how well I did my job than one test on one day of the year does.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...So, should we all be fired because we are a "failing school"?

That was my point - when an entire world seemingly puts the students at a disadvantage, the normal metrics get tossed. Even demonstrating year over year improvement is difficult. Judging an individual teacher within that system can be nearly impossible.

Still, failure cannot be tolerated, right? So what happens when the best that we have to offer is not enough? Those kids are doomed to a life of servitude - in essence, they will be indentured servants working for those who succeed in America.

I know that we "need ditch diggers, too", but it sure would be nice if our system wasn't failing so many. How is it that we simply can't come up with a solution? Maybe there is no solution, but it is a sad, sad story.

But for the grace of God, there go I...

 

[MM27]

1. NO attendance policy: A large number of students miss 80-100 days EVERY year. As long as you sign up for summer school, you will pass to the next grade. Whether you actually attend summer school doesn't matter.
year does.

I had a girl my very first year of teaching that was absent for 129 days. I will never forget her for that reason alone. I put in a retention because in addition to her never being in school, she was very far behind. Her mother begged the principal and promised she put her in summer school that summer. She attended summer school once and went to the next grade that September.

I have a boy this year that comes every day at 9:20. Problem is, the school day starts at 8:40. He misses the first period of math and then gets mad when I expect him to turn his work in like everyone else.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

At one point I would have said yes- but now that I teach, I realize there is so much that you don't realize.

I have students who are absent at least once a week. Another student is about to be gone for 2 weeks on a Disney vacation. We send home a take home folder everynight that tells how their day went. Parents are to sign and send it back. I have several students that do not reliably bring their folders back. If I send home homework, it does not get done.

I have a student who has been to 3 different districts and has been to 4 schools within my district alone- all before 2nd grade. Another student was placed in foster care and multiple emergency placements. Missed a lot of school due to court dates and appointments.

Our school sends home food with students because otherwise they get none. I am next door to the recovery room and there are students who spend the majority of their day in there because they are so disruptive to everybody. But they are expected to pass the test just like everybody else. We have students who are homeless and must take a taxi to school. They don't know where they will be from week to week or even night to night.

That is not to say that we use all of this as an excuse. But I see this and see the amazing work our teachers have done so that our school made AYP last year and I am absolutely astounded. The school I'm in serves a very large Section 8 housing complex. To get parents involved we go to their homes for conferences. That home to school connection is such a struggle for many of our families. So many of our kids do not have male role models or adult authority figures that discipline is a huge issue. But legislators don't see that. We are not an "urban" area, but my school is very similar in terms of population to an inner city school. If you fired every teacher that did not make AYP, you wouldn't have many teachers. People teach at this school because they are dedicated, and this kind of policy would drive away all of the good teachers from schools like mine. These kids come to our classes sometimes one or more grades behind. In the span of one school year they may gain a grade or more, but it may nto be the level the test says is where they should be and we get penalized for that.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

I don't think you can judge a teacher purely on the pass/fail of her students. Are the students improving? digressing? Are they engaged? What kind of feedback is there from the students and parents themselves? I do think that there should be some sort of randomized (perhaps even hidden) observation of teachers on a regular basis. But even that is subject to flaws because who knows if the observer knows what they're doing?

Minimally, to improve the teachers in our schools, there has to be some sort of motivation for the people who have the intelligence and the desire to help kids. Too many rules, low pay and even lower bars to become a teacher is often very discouraging to the people who would make the best teachers. Who wants to work in a thankless field?

I agree that the students and parents should also be held accountable, but if the entire team of three (parents, teacher, student) are not involved, success just isn't as likely.

What if teachers had to meet the kind of standards that people who work in jobs without tenure have to meet? Think about the policies that exist in your workplace, would they work in education?

Most of us have annual or semi-annual reviews where our performance is discussed, if there are problems that need to be handled more immediately, there are usually processes for that as well. For most of us, there are things that would get us bounced out on our butts immedately without question-no "unpaid leave".

We do have reviews. Every teacher in my building has a random observation. We don't know when it is coming. The principal just shows up. We also have a scheduled observation. We show our principal our students' progress on various assessments (including some that are computer based like the AR test- no way a teacher can mess with that.) We have to make a professional development plan at the beginning of every year and go over it with the principal. After each observation the principal goes over everything. We submit weekly collaboration forms or lesson plans to the principal. This is all teachers- including the tenured ones. Outside of all of this, the principal is constantly popping into our rooms or watching or listening from the door. We are always being evaluated.

 

[quentina]

Initially I would say of course not- however if an entire class is failing- then a teacher should be observed to see if the teaching style might be the issue. Fired? Not sure but observed - yes.

What they said.