Should Chavez apologize?

[LindsayDunn228]

OP, your link doesn't work.

 

[CF'er]

I don't know much about him or his country but I will say that if they ever come to us with their hand out...... I think I know what I'd tell them to kiss.

Countries love to bash the USA and then sit and wait for their checks from us in the mail.

Just my opinion.

 

[Tanuki]

The U.S already sponsored a coup against Chavez which didn't take. Mobs of people stormed the Presidential Palace and threw the new guy out of it.
By the end of a weekend Chavez was back in power.

Personally, when I heard about the speech I thought "he still has a bug up his butt about that time Bush tried to overthrow him".

 

[Fitswimmer]

There is nothing that a person that may have read a few books or articles on communism/socialism can say that will change my point of view and experiences. I lived it for almost 15 years. My knowledge and facts are based on what I lived and experienced, not what I heard or read somewhere.

Thank you for posting and I'm glad that you are living here now away from all that. I would much rather hear from people who know about things first hand than someone who has "intellectual knowledge" of it.

The easiest way to get attention and approval in certain corners these days is to bash President Bush. I respect people who can discuss the issues that concern them intelligently, but once somebody resorts to name calling then the conversation is over. If you want to convert someone to your point of view, calling their President names, and calling them ignorant is not a really good way to start.

 

[newman7501]

toto2,

I admire the way you state your opinion and explain its basis. Your arguments are in sharp contrast with the name callers (Chavez seems to be one also!) and UN bashers who don't address the substance of the issue at hand.

You don't have to look much further that the oil for food scandal to have a reason to critize the UN.

 

[RitaZ.]

Thank you for posting and I'm glad that you are living here now away from all that.

You're welcome.

The greatest gift that my parents gave us was to bring us to this great country. When I think about all that my family has accomplished in 26+ years, I'm just amazed. Sometimes I stop and think, "This is really my life?" Yes, our hard work and determination made it possible, but the opportunity is there for anyone that wants to take it. In Cuba, the same work ethic and desire to get ahead would have gotten us nowhere.

 

[Geoff_M]

Her take on things is that Chavez scares the heck out of his people because he is so unstable.

The US, press included, should leave this little Castro-wannabe alone. News stories I've read have indicated that his social and economic policies are starting to run into the problems that many predicted would happen when he took power. The biggest problem he faces is the fall-out of this populist seizing of forgien oil assets and open hostility to those international oil companies that remain. That hostility has included increasing royalty payments for oil to 30%, demanding billions of dollars in "back taxes", and requiring the state owned oil company be made a majority partner in oil ventures.

In order to keep Venezuela's oil production stable, 25% of its pumping volume must be replaced annually through new exploration. That costs big $$$, but since foreign oil companies have gotten a serious case of the "nerves" when it comes into sinking more money into such a political environment and the theat of further nationalization their assets, that exploration has all but stopped. With his national oil company, he has used the savings in exploration costs to fund his social programs that have made him popular with a lot of the Venezuela's citizens. Well, Venezuela oil production is starting to drop as a result and "the goose that lays the golden eggs" is showing signs of starting to dry up. In fact, this April Chavez had to sign a deal to buy $2B worth of oil from Russia through the rest of 2006 in order to deliver on "friendly" oil contracts his national oil company signed with other aligned nations. In order to try and fix this, he is hot on the trail of new contracts with nations like China that would infuse a lot of cash for exploration, but to date no deals have been inked even though he's offered the Chinese a nice discount off of the world market price due to the increased transportation costs and added costs of refining Chavez's oil that is high in sulfur content.

I've read that this all has led to a bit of restlessness amoung the natives. His latest rantings against the US appear to be a logical response to try any shore up his populist base back home. Let the guy rave on as his socialist house of cards continues to collapse.

 

[TLHB70]

The U.S already sponsored a coup against Chavez which didn't take. Mobs of people stormed the Presidential Palace and threw the new guy out of it.
By the end of a weekend Chavez was back in power.

Personally, when I heard about the speech I thought "he still has a bug up his butt about that time Bush tried to overthrow him".

My family lived in Venezuela about a year (DH a little longer) because of DH's job. We lived there during this coup. As a matter of fact, I can remember posting a thread or two while protests were going on, describing to all of you how it sounded and what it looked like. I was quite scared being there through it. I will say that Chavez believes with all of his heart that America funded and was behind this coup. It has never been proven that we had anything to do with it. America did not, however, condemn the people behind it. I am sure that the US government was somewhat relieved that Chavez was gone. I can tell you that we, as Americans living there at the time, were a bit relieved. It didn't last long, though.......only a weekend. He was back in office the following week. I can tell you all that as one poster stated earlier (I can't remember who did the post) that Venezuela is basically only two classes, the very rich and the very poor. Most of the rich locals hate Chavez and his politics. They tried their hardest to get rid of him, but he will not go. Those same people love America and Americans and want so badly to be here instead of there. Some of our closest friends there waited over 10 years to come to this country. They filled out all of the legal papers long before we met them. They moved to America two years ago. They are so thankful to be away from Chavez. The very poor Venezuelans are all for Chavez because he has basically promised them "the moon." They call themselves Chavistas. He has given them some things and helped them some. However, I agree with the many others that say it is what communism starts as. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the country ended up in civil war. Many of my friends that live there have said the same thing. Chavez is a lunatic! The country is very poor, but he continues to make himself very rich. He convinces the poor that he is on their side. He is not. He wants it all for himself. My heart hurts for that country and my friends there.

**ETA: Yes, he should apologize, but he will not. He is a crazy man! He believes with all of his heart that he is right and that we are out to get him.

 

[CapeCodTenor]

Yea, the man's a moron. It's open season right now on Bush and so it's easy to find a pulpit.

 

[TLHB70]

oops.

 

[toto2]

Ah yes, those stupid, stupid Americans........

You are putting words in my mouth here. I never said or implied that American were stupid. As an exemple , I will say that canadian dont understand why it so important foe americans to be religious or french people dont understant why the sex life of your politicians is so important . Does it make us stupid ? No.

Most American dont understand our healtcare systhem , and most canadian dont understand that the american governement thinks that it is the private sector who should take care of it's people. Different concept , difficult to understand .

 

[cardaway]

The united Arab emirat, Saudi Arabia just to name two are "friends " of the USA.

Excellent point that seems to be getting ignored. Don't forget the even more disgusting people the US used to be aligned with. Wonder if the guards watching Saddam now are the ones who used to protect him when he was our friend.

Hugo isn't all there, but that has hardly ever stopped the supposedly "good" nations from supporting the country people like him represent.

 

[toto2]

sounds like he is doing for his country what a fella by the name of hitler, did for his. if i recall, he was also elected in his own right. sounds like what a fella by the name of hussein did for iraq. schools, hospitals...must have been good men.

It amazes me that , as soon as someone proposes somethin different , he is compared to Hitler , Stalin or some other devils.

Since Venezuela has petrol , you can be sure that rich countries will keep an eye on Chavez. The only problem with this potential dictator is that he is not on the American side. If he would be in Saudi Arabia , you can be sure that the US would not have a problem with him.

There is a genocide going on in Darfur right now, and what are our respective governements doing ? Nothing ! But this guy in Venezuela has decide to nationalise petrol , and exchange it's country natural resources for doctors and he is compared to Hitler !

Again , I will say that we need to keep an eye on the guy. There is a potental for something not nice to happen , but so far , it is not happening.

 

[Geoff_M]

The U.S already sponsored a coup against Chavez which didn't take.

I don't doubt that Fidel Jr. thinks the coup was sponsored by the US, but I don't think there's much (if any) that the US did any such thing. "Supported", yes... "Indicate in advance to the coup plotters that we'd recognize a new government after a coup", yes. "Sponsor", no. "Sponsor" means we provided funds, material, logistics, and made the whole thing happen. Without a doubt the US administration wished to be Chavez go at the time, but we weren't the "trigger man" for the failed coup.

 

[Geoff_M]

It amazes me that , as soon as someone proposes somethin different , he is compared to Hitler ,

Yep, ask Bush about that syndrome!!!

Since Venezuela has petrol , you can be sure that rich countries will keep an eye on Chavez. The only problem with this potential dictator is that he is not on the American side. If he would be in Saudi Arabia , you can be sure that the US would not have a problem with him.

I have a real problem with such arguements. The fact is, unless you can point to actual examples of actions and reactions, such "everybody knows that..." arguments are easy to make and require zero proof. It's speculation. And speculation can be made about anything you want. Until the King of Saudi Arabia makes such statements as Chavez and takes such actions, no one can say with any certainty what the US reaction will be. Such pronouncements are only opinion. Diplomacy is a multi-varient system. As such you can't automatically take one scenario and assume that it will apply to another. During WWII we were allied pretty tightly with Josef Stalin... another unsavory character. At that time, under the set of circumstances present, that was the best move for the US and Great Britian. That relationship then disolved when a new set of circumstances were realized.

There is a genocide going on in Darfur right now, and what are our respective governements doing ? Nothing !

Acutally, the US has been one of the few countries that put a lot of effort into trying to keep the situation in Darfur in the World's spotlight.

 

[sodaseller]

Do cartoon characters need to apologize?

I agree. He is such an idiot that I hate to feed his delusion of grandeur by responding. I think it hurts him. He will retain some influence due to those oil reserves, but many in Latin American that warmed to him initially are now realizing what they are dealing with

 

[sodaseller]

I don't doubt that Fidel Jr. thinks the coup was sponsored by the US, but I don't think there's much (if any) that the US did any such thing. "Supported", yes... "Indicate in advance to the coup plotters that we'd recognize a new government after a coup", yes. "Sponsor", no. "Sponsor" means we provided funds, material, logistics, and made the whole thing happen. Without a doubt the US administration wished to be Chavez go at the time, but we weren't the "trigger man" for the failed coup.

We did. Otto Reich at State recognized the new government before it was possible to do so without advance. It was actually an Opus Dei plot, which makes me sound tin foil hat, but it's true

 

[TLHB70]

I don't doubt that Fidel Jr. thinks the coup was sponsored by the US, but I don't think there's much (if any) that the US did any such thing. "Supported", yes... "Indicate in advance to the coup plotters that we'd recognize a new government after a coup", yes. "Sponsor", no. "Sponsor" means we provided funds, material, logistics, and made the whole thing happen. Without a doubt the US administration wished to be Chavez go at the time, but we weren't the "trigger man" for the failed coup.

exactly

 

[TLHB70]

We did. Otto Reich at State recognized the new government before it was possible to do so without advance. It was actually an Opus Dei plot, which makes me sound tin foil hat, but it's true

hmmm......................I didn't know this I guess. Tell me more about this.

 

[Geoff_M]

sodaseller,

I am well aware of that... I have a hard time equating having meetings with people in advance and affirming that we would recognize them as the legitimate government with "sponsoring" the coup. We "sponsored" the Bay of Pigs. We have "sponsored" other coups by handpicking the new leaders, using CIA assets on the ground, providing funds, etc. That hasn't been shown to be the case here.

TLHB70, here you go: Guardian Story The US met with representatives of the plotters in advance and said we'd support them politically. The story also contains a large amount of "smoke" about what some of the same players did in other LA countries in the 1980's and tries to leave the reader with the impression, without evidence, that they did the same thing with the Chavez plotters.