Senate passes stimulus package...

:rotfl2: MM,
I am laughing because last November I took my 17 year old Ds to an open house at Marshall University in WV. Two weeks later American Express sent him a pre approved green card. I called AE to explain to them that this was a minor with NO JOB. You know what they told me, he was approved on his 'EARNING POTENTIAL". I literally started screaming in laughter. what earning potential, the boy hasn't even gotten accepted into a college yet.

I politely told them he was still a minor and please remove him from their mailing list. I also told her I would write a letter to the CEO because any company with such an idiotic policy deserves to be fleeced.

They do it because of the student loan applications and the graduation list that your high school sells to lenders. They know that alot of students dorm and some parents either pay for their children or they find jobs at their schools etc. It's the earning potential that is on the loan aplication for the college, either from you the cosigner, or your child's current place of employment.
 
I'm sure there is a good reason why Obama, congress, the senate, etc decided to rely on "expert economists" instead of just going to a chat board.
Are you aware that the economic experts in the Congressional Budget Office last month projected that the current recession will end in the later part of 2009 and we will see modest economic growth in 2010... all without the Obama "stimulus" package?
 
:sad2:

No...an actual idea. Not snark, not contempt. What would YOU do instead. So far, at least one person offered up something.

.

OK. What's your idea? Why are you convinced this stimulus package is the best plan?
 
Are you aware that the economic experts in the Congressional Budget Office last month projected that the current recession will end in the later part of 2009 and we will see modest economic growth in 2010... all without the Obama "stimulus" package?

Are you aware that there must have been a reason they went with the stimulus package and that it probably didn't have anything to do with hoping for our country to implode?
 

Are you aware that the economic experts in the Congressional Budget Office last month projected that the current recession will end in the later part of 2009 and we will see modest economic growth in 2010... all without the Obama "stimulus" package?

The CBO says that without a change in fiscal policy the economy will be way smaller than it could be for the next few years. Yes, they believe the recession will end late this year, but the economy will be weak for years to come if nothing is done.
 
Are you aware that there must have been a reason they went with the stimulus package and that it probably didn't have anything to do with hoping for our country to implode?

Yes there is, they saw an opportunity to provide pork and socialist programs that they might otherwise not have been able to accomplish if people weren't paniced and have their hair on fire.
 
Sorry, this is a two way street. You think people had 0% down mortgages forced down their throats? Best buy selling a $5000 TV to a dorm student doesnt make Best Buy the bad guy. Its the dorm student spending out of their means because they were never tought the bad things about credit. Do you know how many junior high kids have credit cards now? Who is to blame for that, must be Visa!

It wasn't about forcing the borrower. It was about government forcing the lender into giving risky loans they otherwise would not have. First government pressures banks to loosen standards to reach out minorities and the poor. Then groups like ACORN actually sue to force banks into making those loans. And then the government backs those risky loans with taxpayer money.

So the banks can suffer the harassment of government and "community organizers" or they can give in and make the loans. Why not, since the government will pick up the tab anyway when the loan fails.
 
It wasn't about forcing the borrower. It was about government forcing the lender into giving risky loans they otherwise would not have. First government pressures banks to loosen standards to reach out minorities and the poor. Then groups like ACORN actually sue to force banks into making those loans. And then the government backs those risky loans with taxpayer money.

So the banks can suffer the harassment of government and "community organizers" or they can give in and make the loans. Why not, since the government will pick up the tab anyway when the loan fails.

Again, this is way right generated nonsense. Please prove to me that the Government forced lenders to issue shaky loans.
 
It's better than nothing.
And who exactly is suggesting that we do "nothing"? Obama's running around suggesting that the critics of his record un-pork bill instead want to do "nothing". For the record there have been a total of three GOP Senators that has expressed such a notion, the rest just want something a lot more down-to-Earth along with an effort to actually apply some rationalization to the projects included in any such spending.

The CBO says that without a change in fiscal policy the economy will be way smaller than it could be for the next few years. Yes, they believe the recession will end late this year, but the economy will be weak for years to come if nothing is done.
But that still doesn't jibe with the "irreversible" hyperbole that's come from the Scolder-in-Chief in the last week.

One of the writer's at the National Review has some interesting comments about the pending package and the logic and implications behind it:
The Costanza-Hoover Principle
The idea of the stimulus plan is that we get some money directly into our pockets ($200-$300 billion of tax breaks without matching government spending reductions) plus about another $550-$600 billion worth of new bridges, unemployment benefits, electronic patient records, and so on (plus all the jobs required to make all this stuff). Even better, the people who do these jobs have to buy food, shelter and digital camcorders, so that creates yet more wealth. This sounds pretty sweet. The catch, of course, is that we would add over $800 billion—or more like $1.2 trillion if you include interest payments—to the national debt.

And, of course, it’s likely to be much, much more than this. Most of the spending is in the form of increased transfer payments, additions to school budgets, spending on health care, and so on. Does anybody really think that when these programs expire the recipients are just going to say “Hey, a deal’s a deal”? This will likely increase the baseline of future expenditures. Further, we will be setting a precedent that states that run huge deficits will be bailed out by taxpayers in the 49 other states, and thereby create a Prisoner’s Dilemma—we should expect lots more state deficits that become federal responsibilities. And it’s not like we don’t have various other “rescue” packages lined up behind this one. And it’s not like we shouldn’t expect a large decrease in government tax collections over the next coupe of years as incomes, profits and capital gains decline. If the experience of other countries after bubbles like the one we’ve just had is any guide, we should expect an increase in national debt of trillions of dollars.

But what does this really mean, in practical terms? When I hear politicians say that “we’re borrowing this money from our kids” or whatever, this can seem abstract. It turns out that it’s not a metaphor.

...

In effect, we are asking our children for a loan, and promising that we are good for the money because we will pay them back with interest. Only we get to be both the person asking for the loan and the loan officer at the same time. My guess is the loan officer has a lot of faith in us.

Should he?

Many leading economists believe that the stimulus will create value by driving higher output, and is therefore a good idea. Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, both Nobel laureates in economics sure think so. In fact, they think the stimulus should be bigger. On the other hand, Nobel laureates in economics James Buchanan, Edward Prescott, Vernon Smith and Gary Becker all think it’s a bad idea. The only thing we can say with high confidence about this is that at least several Nobel laureates in economics are wrong.

The truth is that nobody knows if it will work or not. It would be as if, on the night before the Apollo launch, half of the world’s Nobel laureates in physics were asserting that rockets can’t get as far as the moon, and the other half were saying they can get there in theory, but we need much more fuel. This is a question about which expert opinion isn’t worth much. We are making decisions in a sea of ignorance, and shouldn’t kid ourselves about this.

The strongest argument for the stimulus (and the one that I think, in their heart-of-hearts, most supporters actually hold) is what could be called the Costanza-Hoover Principle: Do the opposite of whatever Herbert Hoover did. In a world of limited knowledge, this isn’t as crazy as it might seem, at least as a starting point. It sure seems like Hoover screwed up; and hopefully we can avoid his mistakes. This pretty much boils down to: Avoid a tariff war; don’t try to balance the budget right now; don’t restrict the money supply (that gold standard thing is right out); and, most importantly, prevent a collapse of the banking system.

This principle would lead to deficits (and as a practical matter, we are going to have large deficits for some time), but would also lead to us trying to feel our way into it, rather than making a huge commitment all at once. So-called boldness in the face of ignorance is simply lack of judgment. What would it mean to “feel our way into it”? That’s the subject of an upcoming post.
 
Again, this is way right generated nonsense. Please prove to me that the Government forced lenders to issue shaky loans.

Part of this story is true. The fall in housing prices did lead to a sudden increase in defaults that reduced the value of mortgage-backed securities. What's missing is the role politicians and policy makers played in creating artificially high housing prices, and artificially reducing the danger of extremely risky assets.

Beginning in 1992, Congress pushed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to increase their purchases of mortgages going to low and moderate income borrowers. For 1996, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) gave Fannie and Freddie an explicit target -- 42% of their mortgage financing had to go to borrowers with income below the median in their area. The target increased to 50% in 2000 and 52% in 2005.

For 1996, HUD required that 12% of all mortgage purchases by Fannie and Freddie be "special affordable" loans, typically to borrowers with income less than 60% of their area's median income. That number was increased to 20% in 2000 and 22% in 2005. The 2008 goal was to be 28%. Between 2000 and 2005, Fannie and Freddie met those goals every year, funding hundreds of billions of dollars worth of loans, many of them subprime and adjustable-rate loans, and made to borrowers who bought houses with less than 10% down.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122298982558700341.html

Took me all of 10 seconds on google.
 
Again, this is way right generated nonsense. Please prove to me that the Government forced lenders to issue shaky loans.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/os_dangerous_pals_131216.htm?page=0

THE seeds of today's financial meltdown lie in the Community Reinvestment Act - a law passed in 1977 and made riskier by unwise amendments and regulatory rulings in later decades.

CRA was meant to encourage banks to make loans to high-risk borrowers, often minorities living in unstable neighborhoods. That has provided an opening to radical groups like ACORN (the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) to abuse the law by forcing banks to make hundreds of millions of dollars in "subprime" loans to often uncreditworthy poor and minority customers.

Any bank that wants to expand or merge with another has to show it has complied with CRA - and approval can be held up by complaints filed by groups like ACORN.

In fact, intimidation tactics, public charges of racism and threats to use CRA to block business expansion have enabled ACORN to extract hundreds of millions of dollars in loans and contributions from America's financial institutions.

Banks already overexposed by these shaky loans were pushed still further in the wrong direction when government-sponsored Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac began buying up their bad loans and offering them for sale on world markets.

Fannie and Freddie acted in response to Clinton administration pressure to boost homeownership rates among minorities and the poor. However compassionate the motive, the result of this systematic disregard for normal credit standards has been financial disaster.
 

And from Freddie mac themselves

Department of Housing and Urban Development
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, or HUD, has general regulatory power over Freddie Mac, including power over new programs, affordable housing goals and fair lending. HUD periodically conducts reviews of our activities to ensure conformity with our charter and other regulatory obligations. For example, HUD is currently reviewing certain of our investments and other assets and liabilities.

Housing Goals
We are subject to affordable housing goals set by HUD. The goals, which are set as a percentage of the total number of dwelling units underlying our total mortgage purchases, have risen steadily since they became permanent in 1995. The goals are intended to expand housing opportunities for low- and moderate-income families, low-income families living in low-income areas, very low-income families and families living in HUD-defined underserved areas. The goal relating to low-income families living in low-income areas and very low-income families is referred to as the "special affordable" housing goal. This special affordable housing goal also includes a multifamily subgoal that sets an annual minimum dollar volume of qualifying multifamily mortgage purchases. In addition, HUD has established three subgoals that are expressed as percentages of the total number of mortgages we purchased that finance the purchase of single-family, owner-occupied properties located in metropolitan areas.
http://www.freddiemac.com/investors/ar/2006/04_02.htm
 
Again, this is way right generated nonsense. Please prove to me that the Government forced lenders to issue shaky loans.

OK

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/housing/2004-01-20-fha_x.htm

In a bid to boost minority homeownership, President Bush will ask Congress for authority to eliminate the down-payment requirement for Federal Housing Administration loans.

Nothing-down options are available on the private mortgage market, but, in general, they require the borrower to have pristine credit. Bush's proposed change would extend the nothing-down option to borrowers with blemished credit.
 

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