Seller used points AFTER estoppel

[piccolopat]

Put everything in writing especially to the escrow company so they do not release the funds. Follow up every phone call with something in writing. Tell the broker and the seller that you consider this to be grand theft (I don't buy their story and I think you should not believe them) and are considering both civil and criminal avenues to make this right. Tell the broker that you are filing a complaint against their license and with the BBB. Give them a deadline (maybe 10 days) to resolve this so you still have some time to use the points otherwise you want cash to sign the waiver or a cancellation with full reimbursement within the same 10 days. Play hardball. Good luck.

 

[supersnoop]

Why do you feel talking to DVC legal has a good chance of success? When I called member administration last week they basically said not their problem since the hadnt processed the transfer yet.

Send a certified, overnight letter to their legal department and you'll get a call back the next day.

 

[mousehockey37]

Yikes this is a mess. IMO, you have the legal document stating that if everything isn't as it should be, you can walk, no money lost, no questions asked. I'd take that walk and go to a better, more reputable DVC resale brokerage and find another contract(s).

I agree with others that the smell is stinking up the room.

So you did say this earlier in the thread:

We did ask to cancel initially (didn't want anything to do with this and realtor initially promised reimbursement in 7-10 days) but then after waiting 10 days for our cancellation paperwork, the realtor started this negotiation. And also changed the reimbursement timeline to 3-4 months. Honestly, we are trying to negotiate because we just want out of the deal quickly so we can rid ourselves of the sketchy resale conpanies. But we aren't willing to take a loss for illegal behavior by the seller. It seems like a risk the longer we allow them to keep our money without getting access to the timeshare, so we reluctantly decided that sticking with this deal and negotiating a reimbursement was easiest.

Why didn't you stick to your guns the first time? Also... the bolded part is a huge HUGE HUUUUUUGE red flag to me. You told the realtor what you wanted to do, and he didn't do it. Did you ask for him to start negotiating at the 10 day mark? I'm willing to bet you were probably surprised that instead of getting the cancellation, you got what you have now... a mess. I would've demanded out, in writing, right away and ran like hell, regardless of what this realtor did after you said "we're out.". I'm not a real estate agent or lawyer, but he was NOT acting in the best interest of his customer. No means No. You said no, he didn't listen. Now it's just gotten more complicated, however you do still hold that Ace I mentioned at the beginning.

Find the best avenue out and run. Did you find out anything on the OCC site? Are you still contacting people above "normal customer service"?

I just feel for you because as you deal with all this, there are more than likely better contracts being sold that you could've jumped on and you could be renting and vacationing yourself by now...

 

[MouseOfCards]

I called the title company two weeks ago and they said funds had not been released. I asked them to note on the file that seller had broken the contract and that a cancellation may be forthcoming. Hopefully they don't release the funds until the transfer is actually complete!

This is very interesting. You are very fortunate is this regard and this gives you great leverage. However, others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the main DVC brokers do it this way. My understanding is that for most DVC resale transactions, once the deed is recorded, the seller gets paid and the buyer then waits for DVC to transfer the points. We used 3 of the main brokers and were never asked to sign/verify that points had transferred and funds could be released to seller. For the OP, is there actual wording in the contract with this condition, that funds won't be released to seller until DVC verifies transfer of points?

There are several components here. DVC can't transfer until the conditions have been met AND they have been notified. They'll need a reasonable amount of time to transfer the title. In the timeshare world, a couple of weeks is more than reasonable.

The sad thing is that DVC seems to take much longer to transfer points for resale transactions than for direct purchases. Our resale transactions averaged 2-3 weeks for points to transfer after deed recording. Can anyone share how quickly DVC is doing this currently for direct purchases?

I actually disagree with this. Until the sale has closed, money transferred and points handed over the original owner remains the owner. It is not on disney to police behaviour of people selling their points that should be on the closing agent.

The problem is that DVC's policy/process allows this to happen. After deed is recorded, DVC takes up to several weeks to transfer the points and does not freeze the seller's account, so seller is given time and access to use the points as they wish during this period.

 

[Minniesgal]

This is very interesting. You are very fortunate is this regard and this gives you great leverage. However, others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the main DVC brokers do it this way. My understanding is that for most DVC resale transactions, once the deed is recorded, the seller gets paid and the buyer then waits for DVC to transfer the points. We used 3 of the main brokers and were never asked to sign/verify that points had transferred and funds could be released to seller. For the OP, is there actual wording in the contract with this condition, that funds won't be released to seller until DVC verifies transfer of points?


The sad thing is that DVC seems to take much longer to transfer points for resale transactions than for direct purchases. Our resale transactions averaged 2-3 weeks for points to transfer after deed recording. Can anyone share how quickly DVC is doing this currently for direct purchases?


The problem is that DVC's policy/process allows this to happen. After deed is recorded, DVC takes up to several weeks to transfer the points and does not freeze the seller's account, so seller is given time and access to use the points as they wish during this period.

For direct the points are available for use the day you pay the deposit i.e. before deed recording

 

[Matty B13]

I emailed my title company on Sunday about this and they asured me that the escrow funds don't get released to the seller until after Disney does the transfer. Our title company is Magical Vacation Title LLC, "***".

 

[longboard55]

My guess is that the sellers are going to lose a lot of money. That was pretty dumb.

 

[CMNJ]

I emailed my title company on Sunday about this and they asured me that the escrow funds don't get released to the seller until after Disney does the transfer. Our title company is Magical Vacation Title LLC, "***".

The info I had received from *** indicated the same thing-they will not transfer/record the deed until they have the buyer's cashiers check in hand and they do not release the funds to the seller until the transfer with Disney occurs. It at least appears they are doing their part to keep everyone honest.

 

[rothesay]

I emailed my title company on Sunday about this and they asured me that the escrow funds don't get released to the seller until after Disney does the transfer. Our title company is Magical Vacation Title LLC, "***".

Anyone knows if Duncan Title also only release funds after Disney does the transfer? If not, when you email your title company, did you refer to this thread or simply present this scenario?

I was reading my contract (Broker is Fidelity) it seems the transaction is consider completed when funds are received and the deed is recorded with. And in the contract, it doesn't have the penalty clause / compensation clause for the missing points. My contract has passed ROFR and is in Estopple, is it too late for me to do anything, and I should just keep my finger cross and hope the seller doesn't pull this trick on me?

 

[Matty B13]

Anyone knows if Duncan Title also only release funds after Disney does the transfer? If not, when you email your title company, did you refer to this thread or simply present this scenario?

I was reading my contract (Broker is Fidelity) it seems the transaction is consider completed when funds are received and the deed is recorded with. And in the contract, it doesn't have the penalty clause / compensation clause for the missing points. My contract has passed ROFR and is in Estopple, is it too late for me to do anything, and I should just keep my finger cross and hope the seller doesn't pull this trick on me?

I just emailed explaining the scenario, no need to bring up the thread with your title company. You might explain to them it is in their best interest to wait for DVC to do the transfer first, keeps everyone honest.

Man what a mess!!

 

[jennypenny]

I am doing a contract now, it says $18 for a missing point. This is what escrow is for, I would go after escrow

I agree. Restitution is spelled out in the contract. Why pursue something different? Get documentation to show how many points were missing and have it reimbursed to you from the escrow account.

I"m sorry you had to go through this and it seems like no one involved is being very helpful, but I think you're complicating it unnecessarily. The contract states what happens in this situation. All you need to do is follow through.

 

[andrea7884]

Put everything in writing especially to the escrow company so they do not release the funds. Follow up every phone call with something in writing. Tell the broker and the seller that you consider this to be grand theft (I don't buy their story and I think you should not believe them) and are considering both civil and criminal avenues to make this right. Tell the broker that you are filing a complaint against their license and with the BBB. Give them a deadline (maybe 10 days) to resolve this so you still have some time to use the points otherwise you want cash to sign the waiver or a cancellation with full reimbursement within the same 10 days. Play hardball. Good luck.

They are now saying there must be a 90 day waiting period before receiving a refund since the deed had already been recorded. I don't understand why and they won't give any more information.

 

[andrea7884]

I agree. Restitution is spelled out in the contract. Why pursue something different? Get documentation to show how many points were missing and have it reimbursed to you from the escrow account.

I"m sorry you had to go through this and it seems like no one involved is being very helpful, but I think you're complicating it unnecessarily. The contract states what happens in this situation. All you need to do is follow through.

That was someone else's contract unfortunately. If I buy another contract, I will be SURE to include that language. My contract says my only remedy is to cancel the sale, which I have asked to do in writing and over the phone multiple times. I am hoping that they will comply with the contract and cancel without me incurring expensive legal fees at this point. They are dragging they feet on that and trying to negotiate, and I understand why... Because it's going to be complicated and expensive to cancel! But they have not offered fair compensation yet.

 

[andrea7884]

This is very interesting. You are very fortunate is this regard and this gives you great leverage. However, others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the main DVC brokers do it this way. My understanding is that for most DVC resale transactions, once the deed is recorded, the seller gets paid and the buyer then waits for DVC to transfer the points. We used 3 of the main brokers and were never asked to sign/verify that points had transferred and funds could be released to seller. For the OP, is there actual wording in the contract with this condition, that funds won't be released to seller until DVC verifies transfer of points?


The sad thing is that DVC seems to take much longer to transfer points for resale transactions than for direct purchases. Our resale transactions averaged 2-3 weeks for points to transfer after deed recording. Can anyone share how quickly DVC is doing this currently for direct purchases?


The problem is that DVC's policy/process allows this to happen. After deed is recorded, DVC takes up to several weeks to transfer the points and does not freeze the seller's account, so seller is given time and access to use the points as they wish during this period.

In response to you question about he wording of release of funds... I now realize the contract is slightly vague. It says that funds may only be released after the transfer is complete (so would wait until Disney has verified), but then later says that presentation of a recorded deed is acceptable proof of transfer. However, they still had the money when I contacted them and told them that the contract was invalid.

 

[Matty B13]

That was someone else's contract unfortunately. If I buy another contract, I will be SURE to include that language. My contract says my only remedy is to cancel the sale, which I have asked to do in writing and over the phone multiple times. I am hoping that they will comply with the contract and cancel without me incurring expensive legal fees at this point. They are dragging they feet on that and trying to negotiate, and I understand why... Because it's going to be complicated and expensive to cancel! But they have not offered fair compensation yet.

Were you able to see if the seller had other DVC contracts on the OCC website?

 

[andrea7884]

Yikes this is a mess. IMO, you have the legal document stating that if everything isn't as it should be, you can walk, no money lost, no questions asked. I'd take that walk and go to a better, more reputable DVC resale brokerage and find another contract(s).

I agree with others that the smell is stinking up the room.

So you did say this earlier in the thread:


Why didn't you stick to your guns the first time? Also... the bolded part is a huge HUGE HUUUUUUGE red flag to me. You told the realtor what you wanted to do, and he didn't do it. Did you ask for him to start negotiating at the 10 day mark? I'm willing to bet you were probably surprised that instead of getting the cancellation, you got what you have now... a mess. I would've demanded out, in writing, right away and ran like hell, regardless of what this realtor did after you said "we're out.". I'm not a real estate agent or lawyer, but he was NOT acting in the best interest of his customer. No means No. You said no, he didn't listen. Now it's just gotten more complicated, however you do still hold that Ace I mentioned at the beginning.

Find the best avenue out and run. Did you find out anything on the OCC site? Are you still contacting people above "normal customer service"?

I just feel for you because as you deal with all this, there are more than likely better contracts being sold that you could've jumped on and you could be renting and vacationing yourself by now...

I did not ask to start negotiating. In fact, I had been pestering for the cancellation addendum. I do understand why negotiating is easier though and if the sellers were willing to offer fair compensation, I think everyone would be better off. (Including the sellers.. They will pay more in closing costs and commission and then still have their unsold timeshare than they would have needed to pay me to sign the waiver. It seems they are dug in on the point that I paid for the timeshare (although the banked points were explicitly named in the contract) and they view the points as free.)

 

[andrea7884]

Were you able to see if the seller had other DVC contracts on the OCC website?

They did not have other contracts in Orlando, at least.

 

[rothesay]

In response to you question about he wording of release of funds... I now realize the contract is slightly vague. It says that funds may only be released after the transfer is complete (so would wait until Disney has verified), but then later says that presentation of a recorded deed is acceptable proof of transfer. However, they still had the money when I contacted them and told them that the contract was invalid.

This is what I have in my contract, does it look similar to yours? Like yours in seems pretty vague.

This contract shall be deemed closed upon performance by Seller and Buyer of all obligations under the contract and a determination by the title agent that (1) Title is insurable (if requested) in accordance with the contract (2) The closing documents have been correctly executed and returned to the title agent.
​

As per a suggestion from another poster, I have also sent an email to my Title company asking for clarification.

 

[Disney Dad ADL]

It seems they are dug in on the point that I paid for the timeshare (although the banked points were explicitly named in the contract) and they view the points as free.)

That's clearly BS of course, I'm glad you stuck to your guns. You paid for those points too. I hope it works out for you.

Anyone knows if Duncan Title also only release funds after Disney does the transfer? If not, when you email your title company, did you refer to this thread or simply present this scenario?

I was reading my contract (Broker is Fidelity) it seems the transaction is consider completed when funds are received and the deed is recorded with. And in the contract, it doesn't have the penalty clause / compensation clause for the missing points. My contract has passed ROFR and is in Estopple, is it too late for me to do anything, and I should just keep my finger cross and hope the seller doesn't pull this trick on me?

FWIW this type of thing is exceedingly rare because the seller really has very little to gain from it, since once the transfer happens all reservations will be canceled , so they don't get to keep the reservations.

They could rent out the points to an unsuspecting renter, but i would assume once the reservation was canceled you would get the points back and it's really the renter that would get screwed over. I guess if they were to somehow go on a last minute vacation, maybe it would work in their favor.

I think sometimes it happens accidentally, but I would assume it would be relatively easy to have the reservation cancelled and have the points back.

The problem with this particular scenario is they put the points into RCI, so it's hard to get the points back. Again, though, the seller has very little to gain from doing this, though it's possible they thought they were getting away with a free vacation .

 

[mousehockey37]

I did not ask to start negotiating. In fact, I had been pestering for the cancellation addendum. I do understand why negotiating is easier though and if the sellers were willing to offer fair compensation, I think everyone would be better off. (Including the sellers.. They will pay more in closing costs and commission and then still have their unsold timeshare than they would have needed to pay me to sign the waiver. It seems they are dug in on the point that I paid for the timeshare (although the banked points were explicitly named in the contract) and they view the points as free.)

At this point, you need to do what you need to do for you. A lot of us on here are in agreement that getting out of this thing is probably in your best interest. The time for fairness within the contract has passed. You've been more lenient than most others would have been. I get you're trying to make it work, but sit down, with a clear head... or someone close to you who isn't involved and rerun this whole thing from the start.

- The seller banked 300 points with RCI that were supposed to come to you in this deal, when supposedly this company doesn't cold call to have members bank points.
- When told to cancel the contract, the realtor did not and started negotiating with the seller on something you did not approve of.
- The stories you are getting from your realtor are constantly changing.

This is just part of it, I know I missed some things, but these were pretty big points of this...

The time for being "fair" is over. I'd just want my money back and out of this thing, that's just me though. If your realtor, who is supposed to be working for you, isn't doing their job, then it's time to end it, and as I put a bullet next to it earlier... he's not. The fishy in the room is getting smellier by the minute.

I just know that at this point, if I were you, I wouldn't be caring about ANY of the other parties. I'd be getting my money back and moving on with life and letting them settle everything else on their ends. You've been given the run-around enough and if the seller winds up owing more to others, then that's on him. If the realtor loses a commission and/or license (should you push on him) then so-be-it. They had their chances to make it right and they've failed you.