Seller used points AFTER estoppel

[Disney Dad ADL]

Yeah, as soon as the broker started saying stuff like "you shouldn't worry about losing those points since you didn't pay MFs for them, so they were free anyway" , the broker is obviously not trying to be helpful, and everything he says after that is somewhat suspect. Even if there's nothing he can do, he should at least try to help, but he is obviously not and just coming up with random excuses. A good broker would say "You are right. Those points belong to you and you have the right to cancel the transaction or receive compensation. I will try my best to help make that happen."

 

[ScubaCat]

This is a little strange. I thought the title company does a final verification and waits for the points to be frozen before releasing the funds. It sounds like the process needs to be tweaked a little if something like this is possible.

I hope this one has a happy ending!

 

[Matty B13]

This is a little strange. I thought the title company does a final verification and waits for the points to be frozen before releasing the funds. It sounds like the process needs to be tweaked a little if something like this is possible.

I hope this one has a happy ending!

Some do, some don't. Make sure you ask your title company, not your broker.

 

[mustinjourney]

True.

I'd love to hear directly from the seller on this one.

 

[mousehockey37]

Yeah, as soon as the broker started saying stuff like "you shouldn't worry about losing those points since you didn't pay MFs for them, so they were free anyway" , the broker is obviously not trying to be helpful, and everything he says after that is somewhat suspect. Even if there's nothing he can do, he should at least try to help, but he is obviously not and just coming up with random excuses. A good broker would say "You are right. Those points belong to you and you have the right to cancel the transaction or receive compensation. I will try my best to help make that happen."

Exactly. This broker was told to cancel and instead of doing so, gave some BS timeline to which he would produce the cancellation, but instead went ahead and started negotiating things after 10 days. The customer (buyer) said what they wanted and the broker tried to act in his best interest, and gave a timeline well longer than what he originally said (probably to keep the buyer on the "buying" end of things so they wouldn't cancel).

The broker can't force anyone to do anything in this situation. The only thing they can do is to try and advise everyone of their rights and obligations, but as far as forcing someone to do something -- they have no power to do anything.

So add this to the top part and no, the broker can't force anything, but he did, in this case, come up with some wacky time to get a cancellation done, basically forcing the buyer to have to stay in the deal.

Also, this broker sounds like a scumbag... just like the seller. I know the OP is hoping for the best outcome, but the longer this goes on, the more (if I were the OP), I'd be getting a lawyer involved and contacting any/all agencies that would be able to get things done.

 

[Matty B13]

Hopefully this whole terrible thing leads to DVC turning over accounts quicker and also freezing accounts at the estoppel phase of a resale purchase. I know I made sure my title company was holding on to escrow until I have access to my contract.

 

[supersnoop]

This is a little strange. I thought the title company does a final verification and waits for the points to be frozen before releasing the funds. It sounds like the process needs to be tweaked a little if something like this is possible.

I know of one closing company that does a final verification. I complained when it delayed my closing because it's pointless. Or, rather, should be pointless, because ...

Hopefully this whole terrible thing leads to DVC turning over accounts quicker and also freezing accounts at the estoppel phase of a resale purchase. I know I made sure my title company was holding on to escrow until I have access to my contract.

Disney does freeze the account. That's what "estoppel" means. It sounds like they missed a step in this one instance.

 

[mustinjourney]

Exactly. This broker was told to cancel and instead of doing so, gave some BS timeline to which he would produce the cancellation, but instead went ahead and started negotiating things after 10 days. The customer (buyer) said what they wanted and the broker tried to act in his best interest, and gave a timeline well longer than what he originally said (probably to keep the buyer on the "buying" end of things so they wouldn't cancel).



So add this to the top part and no, the broker can't force anything, but he did, in this case, come up with some wacky time to get a cancellation done, basically forcing the buyer to have to stay in the deal.

Also, this broker sounds like a scumbag... just like the seller. I know the OP is hoping for the best outcome, but the longer this goes on, the more (if I were the OP), I'd be getting a lawyer involved and contacting any/all agencies that would be able to get things done.

Getting an attorney sounds like a good idea, but being an attorney myself, for the amount of money we're talking here, you'd be likely throwing good money after bad.

At best, the most damages we're talking about would be loss of value. You do not get emotional distress or punitive damages in a contract dispute. In this case, he'd get the value of 300 points -- which is $4500 on the high end and about $3000 on the low end. I still don't think we've seen exactly when these points were to expire -- but there's a good chance that they would have been almost impossible to use anyways if they expired prior to Dec. 1, 2016, given that damn near everything is booked in WDW.

In any case, even at $15 a point, it will cost this person at least $3000 to $5000 to hire an attorney to try and sue the person. Even if successful in court, you still have to actually COLLECT the money from the defendant. This is not an easy task if the defendant fails to cooperate. You'd basically become a bill collector -- and who wants to do that??? You could always take them to small claims court yourself -- but you'd likely have to file in the defendant's home state or Florida, and if that isn't where you live, you will likely need to hire an attorney.

Again -- I think the best way to handle this is to file a police report for grand theft. The buyer should have the seller's home address, so this would be quite easy for the police to contact the person. This could also light a fire under the seller's butt to actually negotiate in good faith.

Has the seller even offered any type of refund?

At the end of the day -- the two most likely outcomes are get a full refund at some point in the distant future -- or just accept the loss of the 300 points and move forward. I would have thought the seller would have agreed to a partial refund of some sort, but since you cannot force that outcome, there's really only the two other options.

 

[mousehockey37]

Getting an attorney sounds like a good idea, but being an attorney myself, for the amount of money we're talking here, you'd be likely throwing good money after bad.

At best, the most damages we're talking about would be loss of value. You do not get emotional distress or punitive damages in a contract dispute. In this case, he'd get the value of 300 points -- which is $4500 on the high end and about $3000 on the low end. I still don't think we've seen exactly when these points were to expire -- but there's a good chance that they would have been almost impossible to use anyways if they expired prior to Dec. 1, 2016, given that damn near everything is booked in WDW.

In any case, even at $15 a point, it will cost this person at least $3000 to $5000 to hire an attorney to try and sue the person. Even if successful in court, you still have to actually COLLECT the money from the defendant. This is not an easy task if the defendant fails to cooperate. You'd basically become a bill collector -- and who wants to do that??? You could always take them to small claims court yourself -- but you'd likely have to file in the defendant's home state or Florida, and if that isn't where you live, you will likely need to hire an attorney.

Again -- I think the best way to handle this is to file a police report for grand theft. The buyer should have the seller's home address, so this would be quite easy for the police to contact the person. This could also light a fire under the seller's butt to actually negotiate in good faith.

Has the seller even offered any type of refund?

At the end of the day -- the two most likely outcomes are get a full refund at some point in the distant future -- or just accept the loss of the 300 points and move forward. I would have thought the seller would have agreed to a partial refund of some sort, but since you cannot force that outcome, there's really only the two other options.

I wasn't talking about getting money back... I was talking about taking down the broker.

 

[ScubaCat]

Disney does freeze the account. That's what "estoppel" means. It sounds like they missed a step in this one instance.

That's what it sounds like to me as well. The title agent should get the appropriate person at DVD on the phone and correct the error. I don't see how these transactions could be possible simply trusting a seller to "do the right thing". Just because the points show up in a seller's account doesn't mean they're not frozen pending a sale. Surely, given the volume of these trades that happen every day, DVD and RCI have a way to back out an error.

 

[Missyrose]

I wasn't talking about getting money back... I was talking about taking down the broker.

Why would the buyer throw money at an attorney to "take down the broker?" If the attorney would cost more than the refund on the points value, why would that money somehow be worth it for another reason?

 

[mousehockey37]

Why would the buyer throw money at an attorney to "take down the broker?" If the attorney would cost more than the refund on the points value, why would that money somehow be worth it for another reason?

The OP needs to follow up on the links provided and get a case started against this broker. He definitely shouldn't be allowed to be working in the field. Again, the longer this goes, the more the buyer is losing.

 

[bumbershoot]

Disney does freeze the account. That's what "estoppel" means. It sounds like they missed a step in this one instance.

From reading the thread, it sounds like "estoppel" is a process, and not an immediate one. Files sitting on a desk was mentioned, and I think people were saying that that's probably what was going on when this happened. That it hadn't yet been frozen, even though it was in that phase.

 

[supersnoop]

From reading the thread, it sounds like "estoppel" is a process, and not an immediate one. Files sitting on a desk was mentioned, and I think people were saying that that's probably what was going on when this happened. That it hadn't yet been frozen, even though it was in that phase.

The estoppel process concludes when Disney sends a letter detailing the account status. That letter is used at closing. This particular deal had closed, so the estoppel process was complete.

 

[gluestickgirl]

I know of one closing company that does a final verification. I complained when it delayed my closing because it's pointless. Or, rather, should be pointless, because ...

Disney does freeze the account. That's what "estoppel" means. It sounds like they missed a step in this one instance.

From a thread on another board, it looks like quite a few sellers still had control of their points post closing. That's kind of scary...

 

[supersnoop]

From a thread on another board, it looks like quite a few sellers still had control of their points post closing. That's kind of scary...

They certainly had visibility of their points, but were any able to actually use them? I'm under the impression that none tried to use those points. Per the estoppel, they should have been "frozen," but nobody really knows what that would look like in your online account.

 

[gluestickgirl]

They certainly had visibility of their points, but were any able to actually use them? I'm under the impression that none tried to use those points. Per the estoppel, they should have been "frozen," but nobody really knows what that would look like in your online account.

this is true - it didn't seem like anyone had tried. probably because they're decent people. it still gave me pause, for sure.

 

[Minniesgal]

I know of one closing company that does a final verification. I complained when it delayed my closing because it's pointless. Or, rather, should be pointless, because ...

Disney does freeze the account. That's what "estoppel" means. It sounds like they missed a step in this one instance.

Are you sure? I sold 40 AKV points and I could use them right up until they disappeared 3 weeks after I was paid for them

I know this because I booked a room and mistakenly used them and had to cancel and rebook with the correct points

 

[Matty B13]

Are you sure? I sold 40 AKV points and I could use them right up until they disappeared 3 weeks after I was paid for them

I know this because I booked a room and mistakenly used them and had to cancel and rebook with the correct points

It is truly amazing to me that with all the people on Disboards that we don't have a definitive answer on this!!! I really think DVC is truly to blame for all of this, there is no reason an account shouldn't be frozen at the estoppel phase of resale.

 

[MouseOfCards]

Are you sure? I sold 40 AKV points and I could use them right up until they disappeared 3 weeks after I was paid for them

I know this because I booked a room and mistakenly used them and had to cancel and rebook with the correct points

I always assumed that sellers could still use their points after deed recording and before DVC transfers the points into buyers account. A number of posts seem to verify this.

They certainly had visibility of their points, but were any able to actually use them? I'm under the impression that none tried to use those points. Per the estoppel, they should have been "frozen," but nobody really knows what that would look like in your online account.

Disney either (1) normally freezes points but allowed some to get by, (2) has completely stopped freezing points, or (3) has never actually frozen points. Anyone know for certain which answer is correct?