Seller used points AFTER estoppel

[miTnosnhoJ]

If it were me, I would repeat this as a mantra to the broker, the closing agent, DVC, etc.

"Make me whole!"

 

[kapicka]

I know that DVC member services has a very "hands off" approach to resale and prefer not to get involved. In fact if you call them with any questions or concerns I have noticed a bit of "that's what you get for not buying direct" attitude. On one hand that makes sense since they are neither the buyer or seller of the contract. On the other hand if they allowed the seller to transfer points after the contract was going through (especially after estoppel) then I think Disney messed up and I'd tell them I want 300 points.

 

[Matty B13]

I think the costs might be substantial to cancel, but not born by us, which is the reason they are dragging their feet so much. Out contract specifies that if the seller breaks the contract, the seller will pay all closing costs incurred and that the agent will still be due commission as if the sale had been successful.

We did not pay dues on the points explicitly, but did factor them in to our decision to pay full asking price plus closing costs plus reimburse for 2016 fees. And I realize they are expiring shortly NOW, but this snafu has already wasted three weeks of time we could have rented them or booked our own vacation. I know that was still enough time to rent them at a discount. I saw two people on the rent/trade board got rid of points with the same expiration date in the last couple weeks for that price. Keep in mind hat when we closed, we had over two months left to use the points.

We did ask to cancel initially (didn't want anything to do with this and realtor initially promised reimbursement in 7-10 days) but then after waiting 10 days for our cancellation paperwork, the realtor started this negotiation. And also changed the reimbursement timeline to 3-4 months. Honestly, we are trying to negotiate because we just want out of the deal quickly so we can rid ourselves of the sketchy resale conpanies. But we aren't willing to take a loss for illegal behavior by the seller. It seems like a risk the longer we allow them to keep our money without getting access to the timeshare, so we reluctantly decided that sticking with this deal and negotiating a reimbursement was easiest.

Has anyone ever unwound a deal after closing or know what is involved? A family member who is an attorney told me that there is always a way to unwind a real estate transaction but that it will very complicated at this point to cancel the deal. The realtor seems desperate to avoid cancellation, but also desperate to avoid giving us a cash refund/compensation. (The original contract does give us the right to cancel.)

Andrea have you looked up on the OCC registry if this owner has any other DVC property? This might give you a little insight if this seller is an experienced owner (owns several DVC resorts) or made a really stupid mistake and was the only DVC contract they own. You can search the OCC by owner name.

 

[andrea7884]

Andrea have you looked up on the OCC registry if this owner has any other DVC property? This might give you a little insight if this seller is an experienced owner (owns several DVC resorts) or made a really stupid mistake and was the only DVC contract they own. You can search the OCC by owner name.

Great idea! Do you have a link? Or can someone spell out what OCC stands for? I'm having trouble finding where to look.

 

[andrea7884]

I know that DVC member services has a very "hands off" approach to resale and prefer not to get involved. In fact if you call them with any questions or concerns I have noticed a bit of "that's what you get for not buying direct" attitude. On one hand that makes sense since they are neither the buyer or seller of the contract. On the other hand if they allowed the seller to transfer points after the contract was going through (especially after estoppel) then I think Disney messed up and I'd tell them I want 300 points.

I tried arguing this point with Disney and didn't get very far. However, the rep couldn't cite the document that would allow the to treat resale differently than direct in timeliness of recognizing the legal owner, so I am still waiting to hear from a higher up at DVC to confirm.

 

[erionm]

Great idea! Do you have a link? Or can someone spell out what OCC stands for? I'm having trouble finding where to look.

OCC = Orange County (FL) Comptroller

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp

If they own at VB, HHI, VGC or Aulani, you won't find those on the OCC website.

 

[Dean]

I think the costs might be substantial to cancel, but not born by us, which is the reason they are dragging their feet so much. Out contract specifies that if the seller breaks the contract, the seller will pay all closing costs incurred and that the agent will still be due commission as if the sale had been successful.

We did not pay dues on the points explicitly, but did factor them in to our decision to pay full asking price plus closing costs plus reimburse for 2016 fees. And I realize they are expiring shortly NOW, but this snafu has already wasted three weeks of time we could have rented them or booked our own vacation. I know that was still enough time to rent them at a discount. I saw two people on the rent/trade board got rid of points with the same expiration date in the last couple weeks for that price. Keep in mind hat when we closed, we had over two months left to use the points.

We did ask to cancel initially (didn't want anything to do with this and realtor initially promised reimbursement in 7-10 days) but then after waiting 10 days for our cancellation paperwork, the realtor started this negotiation. And also changed the reimbursement timeline to 3-4 months. Honestly, we are trying to negotiate because we just want out of the deal quickly so we can rid ourselves of the sketchy resale conpanies. But we aren't willing to take a loss for illegal behavior by the seller. It seems like a risk the longer we allow them to keep our money without getting access to the timeshare, so we reluctantly decided that sticking with this deal and negotiating a reimbursement was easiest.

Has anyone ever unwound a deal after closing or know what is involved? A family member who is an attorney told me that there is always a way to unwind a real estate transaction but that it will very complicated at this point to cancel the deal. The realtor seems desperate to avoid cancellation, but also desperate to avoid giving us a cash refund/compensation. (The original contract does give us the right to cancel.)

I've never seen a case where it had to get unwound this late. Your idea that the costs are not yours assume that they are willing to cancel and refund all the money. They may not be and if you have to force them, you'll have fees on that end. And the clock is ticking regardless, time is money in this issue in more ways than one.

 

[andrea7884]

I've never seen a case where it had to get unwound this late. Your idea that the costs are not yours assume that they are willing to cancel and refund all the money. They may not be and if you have to force them, you'll have fees on that end. And the clock is ticking regardless, time is money in this issue in more ways than one.

The escrow company still has our money and the contract is pretty clear on who is responsible for closing costs, and that we have the right to cancel the contract if the seller doesn't follow through on their end. So I hope it doesn't require legal action.

 

[andrea7884]

OCC = Orange County (FL) Comptroller

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp

If they own at VB, HHI, VGC or Aulani, you won't find those on the OCC website.

Thanks! They do not have any Orlando timeshares if anyone is curious.

 

[CaliAdventurer]

What a nightmare! I say go rogue since no one else is helping and certainly not the broker. You have the seller's names- facebook message them. Just say, "Howdy! Imma need you to book me a 300 pt vacay with RCI for me to use as I see fit, on the double! K, thanks! Or else you'll never see your $$$ and your dog again!" (Ok, maybe the dog is overkill). But seriously, the straightest line and all that... GL!

 

[Disney Dad ADL]

Thanks! They do not have any Orlando timeshares if anyone is curious.

All WDW DVC contracts are on there somewhere, you have to know what to look for though. It's kind of picky in terms of search terms. Like you have to make sure the first and last names are in the correct order. It's pretty comprehensive, better than the California one.

 

[mustinjourney]

I would seriously consider calling the local police where the seller lives and making a report of theft/fraud (you should have their home addresses from the paperwork). As they did the illegal behavior via the internet (or phone), they might have violated some federal crimes as well. Perhaps they might even come under some type of criminal hacking law?

The threat of criminal charges might be the only thing that lights a fire under their asses.

Threatening a civil suit for breach of contract will likely do nothing -- since the penalty would be for them to just pay you what you lost.

 

[longboard55]

I am doing a contract now, it says $18 for a missing point. This is what escrow is for, I would go after escrow

 

[CaliAdventurer]

I am doing a contract now, it says $18 for a missing point. This is what escrow is for, I would go after escrow

Agreed. Plus they are insured for E & O and the most likely to pay something.

 

[Minniesgal]

I know that DVC member services has a very "hands off" approach to resale and prefer not to get involved. In fact if you call them with any questions or concerns I have noticed a bit of "that's what you get for not buying direct" attitude. On one hand that makes sense since they are neither the buyer or seller of the contract. On the other hand if they allowed the seller to transfer points after the contract was going through (especially after estoppel) then I think Disney messed up and I'd tell them I want 300 points.

I actually disagree with this. Until the sale has closed, money transferred and points handed over the original owner remains the owner. It is not on disney to police behaviour of people selling their points that should be on the closing agent.

It is easy for this to happen by accident. I sold 40 points last year and they stayed in my account for about 3 weeks after the proceeds of the sale were in my bank. I actually had to stop myself once using the wrong contract by mistake so it is possible fr this to happen by mistake.

Unfortunetly the points can't be transferred back so i think the option of the owner paying you $15 a point is the best one.

 

[Minniesgal]

One cannot be the owner until DVC is notified of the deed recording and transfers it over. IF the deal is different, they may refuse to complete the transfer as in this case. It's better for the buyer they didn't else they would have had no recourse at all other than possible legal action. If that's the only option I would discussed with DVC legal but there's no reason to do so until the broker and/or seller has been given the direct opportunity to fix it. At the end of the day I suspect the answer is going to be that one can try to undo the deal or to accept it as is unless the broker/seller pony's up somewhat voluntarily. If the funds have been dispersed as I suspect, this isn't likely to end well as the only way to undo the deal then would be through legal action.

The other issue is that even if this is undone, this has the chance of clouding the title for a next buyer depending on how it's handled. For private sales they want to see a copy of the recorded deed. I was thinking they are more lenient when working with brokers/closing agents they know and usually transfer it once they are notified of the deed being sent for recording. Still, I didn't get that we were certain of the timeline on all of these issues and when the RCI transfer actually occurred.

Agree with this especially since the OP stated the money is still in Escrow. Money usually changes hands at the point the ownerships transfers over

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

It strikes me that your bargaining position is very strong.

I would first consider what the missing points are worth to you (as many others have said) - somewhere between what you could rent them for and what the vacation would be worth assuming you were able to use them for that.

Then calculate the cost to the seller of not settling with you. You walk away. They pay commission of, say, 10% +closing costs incurred. The actual numbers should be on the settlement statement.
So if you offer them a number that would make you whole - and - it is less than they would be on the hook for if you walk away - then you have the makings of a deal.

The risk if you don't settle is that this requires the seller to put money into the deal, which they may not readily have available. But that is the problem of the broker and the title company, IMO.
But if the deal closes, and makes you whole, then they have all the money in escrow from which to extract the money they are due, and will only give what is left to the buyer.

This may be why they are going through this exercise of trying to get you to sign off. They realize if you walk away, they are owed money which the scumbag seller cannot pay. So they want the deal to go through. You have all the leverage here.

But then, I am not a lawyer.

Good luck.

 

[Dean]

The escrow company still has our money and the contract is pretty clear on who is responsible for closing costs, and that we have the right to cancel the contract if the seller doesn't follow through on their end. So I hope it doesn't require legal action.

That assumes they are willing to do so. They've had real costs and they may not be willing to simply hand over all the money and eat the amount paid. And given the sellers and brokers track record so far I'm not going to hold my breath that either will cover it. Plus the broker is going to want the commission from the seller in this situation even if the deal is aborted. IMO the best option is to work out a deal that's mutual acceptable to both the seller and buyer since DVC has already agreed they'll look the other way on ROFR, in the absence of that, canceling is likely the best policy IF one can get out with everything or close to it. The other approach, and one that I feel has a good chance of success, is to talk directly to DVD's legal department and push to get the points transfer completed but get the lost points both restored and banked.

 

[andrea7884]

That assumes they are willing to do so. They've had real costs and they may not be willing to simply hand over all the money and eat the amount paid. And given the sellers and brokers track record so far I'm not going to hold my breath that either will cover it. Plus the broker is going to want the commission from the seller in this situation even if the deal is aborted. IMO the best option is to work out a deal that's mutual acceptable to both the seller and buyer since DVC has already agreed they'll look the other way on ROFR, in the absence of that, canceling is likely the best policy IF one can get out with everything or close to it. The other approach, and one that I feel has a good chance of success, is to talk directly to DVD's legal department and push to get the points transfer completed but get the lost points both restored and banked.

Why do you feel talking to DVC legal has a good chance of success? When I called member administration last week they basically said not their problem since the hadnt processed the transfer yet.

 

[Dean]

Why do you feel talking to DVC legal has a good chance of success? When I called member administration last week they basically said not their problem since the hadnt processed the transfer yet.

Because they are not completely without blame, can recoup the points from RCI if they want and can give the extra points and allow them to be banked without any real issue. But you've got to talk to someone who has the power to do so. I'd talk to legal and I'd talk to DVC upper management in this situation if the reimbursement from the seller didn't fall into place and given it hasn't so far, it's not looking good on that front.