Seller used points AFTER estoppel

[andrea7884]

If you already own the property, then why would it need to go to ROFR again? This doesn't pass the smell test.

The realtor said because a refund would be a price change and Disney would have to approve the new price.

 

[mustinjourney]

I know this doesn't help the OP -- but from now on -- it might be wise for purchasers to add in language to the existing contract that if there are any missing points, they are to be valued at $_____ per point (suggest $18 such that it is a steep penalty).

This would prevent having to go back through the ROFR process, since it is already in the current contract.

 

[mustinjourney]

What about having a "settlement" agreement??? Seems to me that it would be no different than suing the person and getting a judgment. You essentially agree to settle out of court. Clearly, if you prevailed in court under breach of contract, that would not require a new ROFR process. Not sure how this would be any different.

The settlement agreement could be referenced in the addendum to the contract submitted to Disney to complete the transfer.

Anyone have any reasons as to why this wouldn't work?

 

[Dean]

DVD will require ROFR since it is now a different contract. I don't think they can freeze the contract because not all deals go to completion. It sounds like there was a delay between closure and notifying DVD but maybe it's just where it is now in time and the way it's being presented. I wonder if you'll have to deed it back to them and who'll pay if so if it can be corrected. Maybe the closing agent can come up with points that can be transferred to you, I know this has happened in previous situations though I'm not getting the sense from your posts they'd be agreeable. Plus if the funds have been dispersed, that might create a whole different matter as one who has done this purposefully isn't likely to be very cooperative anyway in returning funds. It also makes me wonder at what point the agent knew this was an issue if they're being difficult. I realize it puts them in a difficult spot but putting up smoke screens raises red flags to me. If the funds have been dispersed the best option might be to take the deal as is but I know that would stink. Legal action doesn't sound reasonable, the total loss is what $1500 to $3000 total.

 

[Matty B13]

I know this doesn't help the OP -- but from now on -- it might be wise for purchasers to add in language to the existing contract that if there are any missing points, they are to be valued at $_____ per point (suggest $18 such that it is a steep penalty).

This would prevent having to go back through the ROFR process, since it is already in the current contract.

We had this in our last resale contract, I think this would scare a seller from doing this.

OP I'm so sorry this happened to you, sounds like you own it now and if you have sent in your check for the closing and it has been paid out to the seller then you might have lost the points. I would be beyond mad about this. Sounds like this was on purpose by the seller. After this is settled and you have your account, I would call DVC up and demand to talk to the Head of DVC and have them explain why the contract wasn't frozen once the estoppel was done. Seems a policy change is needed to prevent this from happening again. I might also talk to the Florida AG about this as well, since you were the property owner and DVC transferred the points with out your consent, since you were the legal owner of this contract. DVC saying "oh well" might not pass the legal smell test.

 

[ziravan]

I'd tell the broker flat out that he makes it right or you file a complaint with FL real estate board. He needs to agree to arrange a transfer of 300 identical points into your new account.

Or.

He need to reverse the deal at his expense.

He's the broker between the both of you and part of the cost of doing business is to make sure shenanigans don't occur.

Put another way, it's bad for business to have it going around that when deals go bad, his attitude is, "gee, that's too bad..."

I would also put the broker on notice that if he doesn't make it right, you will use every means at your disposal to reverse the funding. If you used a card, I'd work with them. If you used a DVC or timeshare financing company, I'd protest through them.

Personally, I would NOT sign the waiver with DVC until this is made right. Once signed, the problem goes away for everybody but you. While it's still in limbo, it's festering for all parties involved.

I would let this drag on all parties involved until I got relief.

As a general risk management rule, once companies realize they can't push over the other party in a liability situation, the next best solution is to close out the liability: first priority, get you to sign the waiver and make it go away, backup solution, settle and make it go away..

 

[kniquy]

I would create a buyer beware thread to note the resale company, agent and the sellers names. Who knows if they own other contracts and they are going to try and screw others. You could look up what else they might own on the OCC. At least it seems as though they will not get any use out of the transfer to RCI.

You could also contact the sellers. Their info should be all over the contracts. You could pose a settlement or to take them to small claims court.

I would reach out to the AG, the BBB abd whomever else that pp have mentioned. Maybe with some pressure the resale company will make right on the deal.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[PSUDinsey]

https://www.myfloridalicense.com/entercomplaint.asp?SID=

You can file a complaint there.

 

[mustinjourney]

Here's what someone suggested on another board.

"So, DVC doesn't currently work this way, but in this instance I would pull out the Condominium Declaration document (recorded on the OCC website) and read them the paragraph that says the resale owner is entitled to full membership rights and privileges (or something along those lines) immediately once the deed is recorded. If the deed is recorded, they are the owner and DVC has to treat them as such whether it's their normal process or not. The Condo docs are a bit of a pain to find, you have to start with your deed and work you way back through the "recorded in this book on this page" jargon, but they can be found."

Essentially this should be on Disney for not freezing the account.

 

[Matty B13]

The more I think about this situation, I think DVC needs to change their policy and freeze the contract after estoppel. Even though the seller still has legal title to the contract, once the contract has gone through estoppel, they should lose access to that contract through DVC, since this is cleared through DVC at the time and they know that the contract is in process of a sale. I wonder if anything in Florida's timeshare laws address this issue, and if DVC is in violation of any of these? I can't believe that the resale broker knew anything about what the seller was up to, so I think he might be between a rock and a hard place on this one. I also, wonder if RCI could be held liable for accepting points that were not transferred by the legal owner?

 

[Matty B13]

Here's what someone suggested on another board.

"So, DVC doesn't currently work this way, but in this instance I would pull out the Condominium Declaration document (recorded on the OCC website) and read them the paragraph that says the resale owner is entitled to full membership rights and privileges (or something along those lines) immediately once the deed is recorded. If the deed is recorded, they are the owner and DVC has to treat them as such whether it's their normal process or not. The Condo docs are a bit of a pain to find, you have to start with your deed and work you way back through the "recorded in this book on this page" jargon, but they can be found."

Essentially this should be on Disney for not freezing the account.

I would also inform DVC as the "legal" owner of the contract that you get access to the points ASAP to see what is the account, and that the former owner who did not have legal authority to transfer the points did so and that you want your points transferred back, no excuses or you will fill a complaint with the AG. The date your deeded contract closes and is recorded in the OCC is the day you own the points, DVC can't use the excuse that it takes time to transfer the account over and blame the previous owner. It is their system that allowed this to happen.

 

[andrea7884]

Here's what someone suggested on another board.

"So, DVC doesn't currently work this way, but in this instance I would pull out the Condominium Declaration document (recorded on the OCC website) and read them the paragraph that says the resale owner is entitled to full membership rights and privileges (or something along those lines) immediately once the deed is recorded. If the deed is recorded, they are the owner and DVC has to treat them as such whether it's their normal process or not. The Condo docs are a bit of a pain to find, you have to start with your deed and work you way back through the "recorded in this book on this page" jargon, but they can be found."

Essentially this should be on Disney for not freezing the account.

I like this idea, but I'm not sure that any of the people I've talked to when I call the DVC customer service actually have any power to do something like that. Anyone have any ideas for how to get in touch with someone higher up that would have more power and be able to better understand a unique (I hope) situation like this?

 

[PSUDinsey]

Start documenting every person you talk to and at what time- stop calling and start emailing - create a paper trail. Unfortunately no one cares about random person calling but when the better business bureau, a license investigator, or the state attorneys investigator starts asking basic questions things get done. I not sure who is at fault but at this stage I would copy DVC, the realtor and his broker, the title company, and the loan company should you have on on every email.

 

[Matty B13]

• Disney Vacation Club Member Administration
  
  Contact Member Administration for:
  
  • Add or remove an owner from your deed, or transfer to a family member
  • Change the title on the deed to your trust
  • Change your name in our records and obtain a new Membership Card with your new name
  • Make changes to your deed if it’s titled as a corporation, LLC or LLP
  • Obtain information on selling your ownership interest by calling (800) 800-9800† – Option 2, then Option 1
   Hours of Operation
  
  Monday to Friday
  9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Eastern Time
  
  • Phone Numbers
    
    (800) 800-9800† – Option #2
    (407) 566-3800† – Option #2
    
  • Mailing Address
    
    Disney Vacation Club
    Member Administration
    1390 Celebration Blvd.
    Celebration, FL 34747
    
    
    I would try this first, and speak with a manager

 

[Deb & Bill]

Start documenting every person you talk to and at what time- stop calling and start emailing - create a paper trail. Unfortunately no one cares about random person calling but when the better business bureau, a license investigator, or the state attorneys investigator starts asking basic questions things get done. I not sure who is at fault but at this stage I would copy DVC, the realtor and his broker, the title company, and the loan company should you have on on every email.

That is going to be very difficult. DVC doesn't like to follow up with email. They like to "keep it personal" with a phone call. You could always tell them that you are recording them while you are talking to them and get their acknowledgement of that. See what happens.

 

[disneynutz]

I am going by what I can pry out of the realtor, because Disney will not talk with me directly until the membership is finalized. But I believe we had already closed. I know the deed was filed in July according to the public record, and this RCI transfer seems to have happened in August, although I can't get a specific date. It happened before Disney processed the change in account though.

If the deed was filed prior to the transfer, IMO it's Disney's problem and they need to make you whole. Your broker has the responsibility to act on your behalf to get the answers needed.

Bill

 

[ziravan]

There are 4 parties here: seller, broker, DVC, buyer.

If the buyer signs the amendment to accept membership sans banked points, three of those are off the hook.

Only one is left holding a now empty bag.

I wouldn't let anyone off the hook.

The longer this festers, the greater the smell it'll make. Somebody will move to clear up the stench (because it does stink).

Eventually.

 

[rothesay]

Not sure if it will be the right move, as DVC may use to discourage others from buying resale, but may be getting media involvement will add some pressure on DVC or the broker to do the right thing. Right now, I can't see why either the broker or DVC would want to resolve this issue for the OP as they are not the one who is suffering.

 

[andrea7884]

I like this idea, but I'm not sure that any of the people I've talked to when I call the DVC customer service actually have any power to do something like that. Anyone have any ideas for how to get in touch with someone higher up that would have more power and be able to better understand a unique (I hope) situation like this?

I called DVC again this morning and was more firm this time and actually got to someone who seemed to somewhat understand the situation. She told me that we are not really the owners until the transfer is complete in Disney's system. I quoted the covenants about being the owners the same date the deed was filed and she said it didn't work that way for resale-- only direct. So apparently it is fine for the sellers to bank the points after closing, as they are still the owners in Disneys eyes. She couldn't point me to where the rules for resale are posted so some one else will call me on Monday about that.

She did tell me that it would be totally fine with DVC to add an addendum with the seller compensating us with a partial refund and it wouldn't restart ROFR like the realtor said it would. So I am pursuing this option.

I asked for $10/point, since the points were close to expiry. Does this seem fair? It looks like last minute rentals on the rental page go for around that. The points are expiring very soon now due to all this delay, but had over 2 months left at closing.

 

[mustinjourney]

The more I think about this situation, I think DVC needs to change their policy and freeze the contract after estoppel. Even though the seller still has legal title to the contract, once the contract has gone through estoppel, they should lose access to that contract through DVC, since this is cleared through DVC at the time and they know that the contract is in process of a sale. I wonder if anything in Florida's timeshare laws address this issue, and if DVC is in violation of any of these? I can't believe that the resale broker knew anything about what the seller was up to, so I think he might be between a rock and a hard place on this one. I also, wonder if RCI could be held liable for accepting points that were not transferred by the legal owner?

I agree. Disney is really the only party in a position to prevent this type of fraud/accident from occurring.