Scooter issues again

[LBIJim]

[QUOTE

You could be in the position of an elderly couple I ran into in August. There they sat, a nice couple in their 80's, at the MK bus stops, waiting for their bus back to their resort. They had already been waiting for 30 mins. A bus had come along but was unable to take them due to the lift system being out of whack. Another bus came along, while we stood there and waited with them, talking...again, weren't able to get on the bus due to system failure. The line was long, so we waited with them, for a third bus to come along. Those poor people had to wait close to an hour before a bus came that could accomodate them..in the searing August heat/humidity. Were they abusing the system? No....they had real disabilities. They certainly weren't given preferntial treatment. If anything, they were discriminated against.

.[/QUOTE]


In the six months or so since I've been around, a similar thread seems to have occurred every month or so. And there's always the "malfunctioning equipment" comment.

Why does this happen so often? (or appear to happen so often). Doesn't Disney maintain this equipment properly? Or see to it that's it's fixed quickly it it IS "out of whack?"

I've never ridden the busses (only monorails or boats) so I don't know just how high the demand is for disabled accommodations. But I'm guessing it's high enough that Disney shouldn't be dispatching busses with broken equipment. Yeah, I realize there may be times when a "working" lifts start getting tempermental. But based on more than a few postings it appears Disney is knowingly sending out buses with broken apparatus. Isn't that a violation of ADA?

Jim

 

[scuba]

>>> ...displaced my family from a bus...

(Some hypothetical embellishment added, Ph.D.'s in English and logic and transportation engineering plus a J.D. needed to understand it all)

So you are nicely settled in a seat, admitteldy the fold up seat to be exact and the bus driver has closed the door and is ready to go when someone knocks on the door. The driver opens the door again and finds he has to either commence the wheelchair loading procedure or close the door on that party and take off.

The driver walks around the outside of the bus to the open back door and asks you and a few others to disembark so he has more maneuvering room.After one of the party helps get the wheelchair aboard and strapped down, the remaining 18 members of that party rush through the rear door leaving no room for you to climb back aboard.

Now what?

Do you, apparently dumbfounded but knowing well what you are doing climb halfway into the bus (or maybe you can get all the way in but not behind the white line) expecting the driver with the same definitiveness asking you to step out ask those who rushed and cut ahead of you to step out instead to let you back on?

Does the driver announce that he will remain there until the next bus arrives to let you on board, expecting in the back of his mind that someone else, hopefully one of those who boarded last and took up the last bit of space, to volunteer to get off?

Would Disney issue each one of your party two extra use-anywhere-use-anytime fastpasses, one for the wait for the next bus and one for the effort it takes to make this request?

I am all in favor of splitting a family one of whose members is in a wheelchair and not all can fit on the bus. They in turn can choose to all wait for the next bus although splitting up will sometimes get them to their destination sooner and never get them to their destinations later compared with not splitting up, for example the next bus has all the wheelchair positions taken.

That said, I have often gotten off a crowded bus or streetcar back door to help others get off, but remained positioned to be able to get back on. More than once I heard the driver announce over the PA system "Those entering the back door please come forward to pay your fare". which I of course ignored.

>>> ... (I) saw the same person pushing the empty wheelchair ...

If I rent a wheelchair I can ride a little of the time, some of the time, most of the time, or all of the time. If I don't rent a wheelchair, I have to walk all off the time. Meanwhile if I am not riding in it I either have to enlist someone else in my party to push it or carry it or I have to push it or carry it myself.

everything is about right but we were asked to stand up and not get off the bus we just pushed ourselves forward toward a pole we could hold onto. The next stop we got off because I felt it to be unsafe....after getting off the bus, I looked at my Wife and said never again....ride the bus that is.

 

[seashoreCM]

>>> put buttons at every bus stop, similar to those at crosswalks, the ones that control the crosswalk lights and traffic lights. that button is routed to a controler that dispatches a new fleet of lift capable smaller buses to the stops.

Two problems:

1. Imposters will push the button from time to time and the driver of the smaller bus is forbidden by law to ask all the questions needed to find out who is an imposter.

2. The smaller bus must tailgate if not beat the next arriving larger "general purpose" bus out of that stop.

 

[scuba]

>>> put buttons at every bus stop, similar to those at crosswalks, the ones that control the crosswalk lights and traffic lights. that button is routed to a controler that dispatches a new fleet of lift capable smaller buses to the stops.

Two problems:

1. Imposters will push the button from time to time and the driver of the smaller bus is forbidden by law to ask all the questions needed to find out who is an imposter.

2. The smaller bus must tailgate if not beat the next arriving larger "general purpose" bus out of that stop.

And someone said it was discrimination, it was just an idea, not intended to offend

 

[scuba]

>>> put buttons at every bus stop, similar to those at crosswalks, the ones that control the crosswalk lights and traffic lights. that button is routed to a controler that dispatches a new fleet of lift capable smaller buses to the stops.

Two problems:

1. Imposters will push the button from time to time and the driver of the smaller bus is forbidden by law to ask all the questions needed to find out who is an imposter.

2. The smaller bus must tailgate if not beat the next arriving larger "general purpose" bus out of that stop.

The idea was influenced by watching another bus at the POP load a ECV, the time it took to load the bus a second bus came up along side and loaded to capacity without having to load a ECV and was gone before the ECV got loaded and strapped down

Like I said, it was an idea, I clearly ruffled enough feathers here today and the idea was not intended to offend

 

[dburg30]

No, I'll admit it. I was being a little sarcastic.

But, let's examine the record, shall we? All in one day, Scuba

* came to the transportation board to rant about scooters
* the DVC board just to say that DVC doesn't work out for the scuba family
* the DCL board to point out everything that was wrong with their cruise
* the theme park board to brag about taking flash pictures

And lord knows what else.

Remember folks: don't feed 'em, or they'll just keep coming back.

Man, I had NO idea I was going to have other entertainment today!! Thanks for the links

 

[bumbershoot]

My thoughts...

Yes, I saw the signs. What I don't understand is Disney usually loads a bus with disabled folks first, we were already on the bus, nearly pulling away from the curb. Like I said earlier this driver loaded a scooter with a full bus not only displacing us but actually put folks off of the bus because of the families with the scooter folks.....still just doesn't seem right, I'm not the only one that feels this way

Hmm. Re-reading that...yes, it is different from how I've read it's normally done. I wonder what the people said to the driver; I wonder if there were some pretty serious circumstances talked about quietly that you weren't aware of.


But I don't think you're happy about the other way it's done either, loading people on wheels first.

Hopefully no one in your family gets injured or ill between now and then.

I was thinking that too.

I have been with guests who truly needed an ECV. It was eye-opening. This person wave2 behaved exactly as we all would hope someone in an ECV would behave. But, it was amazing to see how others treated her...truly eye-opening.

Me too. I mean, I always had empathy for the situation of sitting while others are standing, and being below peoples' normal visual ranges. But toodling around DLR with my friend while she drove her ECV was really astonishing. She simply became invisible to many people.

Then again, there are plenty of people who don't look behind them as they are going to scoot across a lane of people walking...my husband does it, he has even been known to make a total stop so he can look at a map. And he's a big guy so his stops can impact others. However, people walking can stop really fast. People *driving* can't, even when they are going nice and slow. And being hit by a scooter could be like getting hit by my husband if you stop in front of him, though he has no sharp edges and won't be smashing your ankles or knees, unlike an ECV that has to stop on a dime because of the actions of those in front of them.


NOw...I've also gone around DL with someone on a scooter who had none of the niceties. This person barreled around, yelling at adults and children, and used the machine nearly as a battering ram. But this person simply had that personality, and I saw the person do the same while walking. So just being on wheels doesn't make a person fabulous, but the fact that that person exists doesn't mean that all ECV users are like that person.

I'll give you an example of a scooter rider nearly running over our daughter at small world for every example you give me of folks darting in front of your ECV.

You probably can, because the same moment can appear two different ways, depending on your perspective.

My point is if I speed up time to say 20 years from now and my heart condition does cause me to be scooter bound. I'm thinking that if i'm presented with me and my scooter displacing a sleeping child in her mothers arms, my choice would be to wait on the next bus.

Well, that's how you think now. But in 20 years, you might have grandchildren. So now you're in the scooter, everyone is still touring parks well into kid's bed/naptimes (something I've done, I'm not judging it, but it deserves to be talked about and commented on, as I do in my trip reports when I've done it), and so you have you in the scooter AND a child or more in your adult childrens' arms. NOW what do you do?

Do you split up from your dear family? Do you have your daughters or their partners continue to hold the sleeping children in line so that you don't displace OTHER sleeping children with your scooter needs?

And what's the huge problem with having a kid in your arms? With my particular son, sitting down with him when he fell asleep as I stood has ALWAYS woken him up. I'd far rather stand with him on a moving bus than sit down and wake him up and have him cry or whine. But then I took transit for a few years, transit going 60mph down I-5 for a commute, so I know well how to stand firmly on a bus, and having a kid in my arms actually made me even more solid as there is more weight keeping me down. And if I had a 2 year old, I'd have him/her in an Ergo, so I'd have both hands free.

I'm a compassionate bloake, really I am. You cannot get through 15 years of ER nursing and not be.

From my own personal experience with nurses, including my stepmom who has been a NICU nurse about the same amount of time, the longer you're a nurse the harder your heart gets. And so it's easy to see people in terms of what you see in the hospital. And the nurses I have known can be incredibly judgmental with snap decisions; might serve them well in emergency situations, but I know especially with my stepmom, it makes them very difficult in real life, as they put the same feelings onto humans out in the world as they do in their hospitals. The words you have used about people having problems...haven't been sweet. They have been words that my stepmom might use. I haven't been able to get through to my stepmom (who used to be a kind, loving person), she says that especially in the NICU she can't let emotions cloud things and so has shut them down entirely (living with my dad makes that a smart thing to do too), but maybe I can help you see that what you say about your heart is different than the words you have used about others.

Um, how do you expect the woman with the "injured" (use of quotation marks around this word are equally objectionable to the earlier, entirely uncompassionate use of the word BOO-BOO, which it replaced - both indicate skepticism and sarcasm) to get the wheelchair on the bus? Even if she could lift it up to the entrance level at the front of the bus, since the buses all provide access for Guests using wheels, why SHOULD she use the front door when the ramp works better for her? Plus, entering up the ramp, she wasn't putting unnecessary/additional pressure on her injured ankle - as she would have been if she'd had to STEP UP INTO the bus from a different level.

I was thinking that too.

Ok Kaydie, i'm not going to worry too much about what quotation marks means, again you are reading too much into the post, when I'm sarcastic it usually jumps right out without the use of subtle quotation marks. Her wheelchair takes up as much room as me folding up 2 strollers and me having backpacks and diaperbags and jackets and coats and balloons and sippy cups. I look like a sherpa and was hauling much more than she was on that day...using your rational I should have used the bigger door in the rear.

Except you CAN put weight on both of your legs equally. And the items you were carrying had straps and handles made for you to lift them up, and likely didn't weigh a huge amount, compared to the ONE heavy item she was dealing with.

And putting quotes around something MEANS that it's alleged that it's something. Or that you're saying something someone else said. If you want to emphasize a word, use bold or italics, or put asterices around it. Quotation marks online, in the way you used them, mean that you don't believe what you're saying. No over-reading needed whatsoever.

4.) The flash photography rule, guideline, commandment, still remains very unclear. From cast member to cast member you will get different answers. A Pro camera in the hands of a pro photographer like my wife and the pictures you can get are amazing. We take Flash photos in the absence of other guests, in front of or behind, Tuesday the 9th we were the only family on the boat, hardly bragging. She switches her Nike D-200 to no Flash if someone is on the ride with us.

Something to think about.

I had Lasik in the early 00s. Yep, my choice. Except then, no one was telling patients (at least at my clinic) that it could cause extreme sensitivity to light. And I got that. Big time.

When I'm on a ride, even if I'm not in the same boat/car/etc as someone using flash, someone using a flash HURTS me. And it destroys the "night" vision I had slowly developed, so I'm going to miss the next near minute of the ride.

If I was on the next boat as you were, you would have harmed me. Hurt my eyes, a physical pain. And caused me to not enjoy the ride as much. Your actions with that flash could have hurt another person.

I personally don't like hurting others. Which is why I'm telling you about my situation, so that you can think twice about it next time you feel like using your flash.

And someone said it was discrimination, it was just an idea, not intended to offend

The discrimination of a call button would be twofold. One, it's separating those that need wheels, and that's really not what this country is all about. Two, those who don't need wheels would feel (possibly rightfully) that it's discriminatory against them! And from your perspective, it's doing the same thing, really. Just on a different vehicle.

 

[Mish]

I am one of those families that get the nasty stares all the time. I travel with my 11 year old son. I use a wheel chair for him in the parks because he has a hip condition the causes him a lot of pain if he walks to much. Looking at him you would say why is he in there. He is the one that jumps out of the chair like nothing is wrong to get on the rides. Personally I don't worry about what people are thinking and only worry about my son and his pain. In the wheel chair you do wait on line. there are some that have a separate entrance. I do agree that there is wheel chair abuse but in the past years Disney has made more of the lines wheel chair accessible. Michelle

 

[goofy4tink]

I am one of those families that get the nasty stares all the time. I travel with my 11 year old son. I use a wheel chair for him in the parks because he has a hip condition the causes him a lot of pain if he walks to much. Looking at him you would say why is he in there. He is the one that jumps out of the chair like nothing is wrong to get on the rides. Personally I don't worry about what people are thinking and only worry about my son and his pain. In the wheel chair you do wait on line. there are some that have a separate entrance. I do agree that there is wheel chair abuse but in the past years Disney has made more of the lines wheel chair accessible. Michelle

I'm sorry you get those stares and nasty looks...so unfair. But, you seem to have come to terms with it and continue to do what is best for your ds.
I, for one, am thrilled that Disney has made so many of the ques ECV/wheelchair 'friendly'. It amazes me when I overhear someone, outside an attraction, saying..'Man, why did we rent this stupid thing if it's not going to get us on the ride any faster???'...just boggles the mind.

 

[maxiesmom]

I'm going to leave you with this. it's late, my DD2 is sleeping, DD4 nearly asleep. Me standing with 2 stollers and countless support items for a family of 4. doors close and driver just nearly getting into his chair when someone taps on the front door of the bus and a ECV loading process is initiated. "MY" family, not yours but my family is displaced and now left standing. Looking over my shoulder I see my Wife with an arm around a pole, Daghter in her arms. Below me is my 4 year old holding on to my leg, me holding on to a pole with a pinky finger. bags falling down from my shoulder. Just minutes before we were sitting, albet in the special reserved folding seats. Looking towards the ECV, straped securely to the tiedowns and their familiy members, someone had given up their seat and now what appeared to be an able bodied adult was sitting, while my Wife was holding on to a pole and my daughter holding on to my leg, we got off at the next stop..........If you cannot see why I was frustrated then i'm not the one you should be worried about.

You said it yourself, you were in seats that clearly state they will be used for scooter guests. And you chose to sit there. Did you not believe they would really make you move? That is what I don't get. You know where you were sitting was clearly labeled, and yet you complain because you did have to move?

I also don't get posting on a message board and expecting sympathy and understanding when you are so unwilling to give either thing yourself.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Again, you have no idea what i'm like in person and certainly you have No right in bringing My children into a discussion like this.

I honestly think you're reading bavaria's post wrong. She wasn't referring to your kids, but rather the next generation (i.e. when their age group grows to adulthood) in general.

Oh, and for future reference - I'm a she
Thank you for not making assumptions. Seriously.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Once again, someone using a quote I typed at page 1, since then i've learned quite a bit. I still have to add i'm still around, still in the discussion. My initial sarcasm has only been rivaled by the sarcasm i've recieved since......I suppose what sleepy said is true, you get what you give. But still 2 wrongs don't make a right.......

Respectfully, that's because people in general tend to respond to individual posts immediately upon reading them, rather than catching up on the whole discussion first. It's just human nature.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I think we can all agree that there is abuse of ECV/wheelchairs

Not even abuse, necessarily, at least not by the understood definition. For a while, at least one rental company was marketing ECVs to able-bodied people - something to the effect of, "Save your energy for nighttime fun - use a scooter to tour the parks!"

I have been rammed by strollers in the parks. I have had bloodied ankles and shins from strollers being pushed at warp speed....one woman rammed me, gave me a dirty look when I yelped in pain and then said..."Weeeellll, excuse me, but we need to get to our meal ontime. Do you mind moving??" Really??

Interesting. We could start a whole new thread on this (on the Community Board - don't panic!). Who thinks the woman STARTING the encounter by saying, "Excuse me, we need to get to our meal on time; do you mind moving?" would have made more sense - and caused less harm to one of our Esteemed Moderators?

Remember folks: don't feed 'em, or they'll just keep coming back.

Respectfully (and I do genuinely respect you and your opinions) I disagree that scuba is a troll. Opinionated and stubborn, sure. As he pointed out, we - along with many others - went round and round on another topic recently. I didn't agree with his generalizations there, and I don't here (and I REALLY disagree that flash photography is acceptable on a dark ride) - but he's NOT a troll.

missed port
4.) The flash photography rule, guideline, commandment, still remains very unclear.

Okay. How about the flash photography common sense respect for your fellow Guests consideration?

In the six months or so since I've been around, a similar thread seems to have occurred every month or so. And there's always the "malfunctioning equipment" comment.

Why does this happen so often? (or appear to happen so often). Doesn't Disney maintain this equipment properly? Or see to it that's it's fixed quickly it it IS "out of whack?"

As well as they can, sure. And some of the lower-floor buses have ramps that, if the automatic control doesn't work, the driver can open manually.

But those lift buses can be a killer. Even if they test it before the bus goes out for the day. things can still go wrong. The lift could be thrown off-balance by people standing on the stairs/lift while the bus is in motion. The ground where the lift should open might be uneven, meaning the sensors won't allow it to open - for safety reason. It could extend fine but then the lip won't go down. LOTS of things can cause a lift to not operate - some requiring repair, others only at one location.

 

[goofy4tink]

Coming back here, head hung low...in abject apology. After much consideration and thought, I know remember that the nice elderly couple that had to wait so long, didn't encounter two 'broken' lift buses...only one. The first bus, that came along before I got there, couldn't take them because there had been another ECV couple loaded before them...THEN the bus with the broken lift came along.
Sorry...it was only one poorly maintained bus, not two.

 

[seashoreCM]

>>> ... abject apology ...

But the end result from the point of view of the couple was the same. The driver should have done the modern (two way radio) equivalent of pushing the pedestrian button on the traffic light pole and Disney Transport headquarters done the equivalent of sending out a minibus (sending out another regular bus pronto).

 

[goofy4tink]

>>> ... abject apology ...

But the end result from the point of view of the couple was the same. The driver should have done the modern (two way radio) equivalent of pushing the pedestrian button on the traffic light pole and Disney Transport headquarters done the equivalent of sending out a minibus (sending out another regular bus pronto).

It really would be better if you quoted the entire post, rather than just a snippet..that way everyone 'gets it'.
In any case...not sure where you are getting your info, but 'modern equivelent' of sending out a minibus....not really sure that's what Disney is expected to do.
But in any case...please don't just quote a few words out of a post....at least quote the entire sentence and then 'bold' the words you take issue with.

 

[inkkognito]

No, I'll admit it. I was being a little sarcastic.

But, let's examine the record, shall we? All in one day, Scuba

* came to the transportation board to rant about scooters
* the DVC board just to say that DVC doesn't work out for the scuba family
* the DCL board to point out everything that was wrong with their cruise
* the theme park board to brag about taking flash pictures

And lord knows what else.

Remember folks: don't feed 'em, or they'll just keep coming back.

But perhaps we should differentiate between two similar yet different species that tend to populate forums. The troll generally does a "hit and run" or drive-by, then sits back and watches while it all hits the fan. The attention ho/drama lama is continually driven to post something that will people will react to so they can respond again and again and again....

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[goofy4tink]

Can we please stay on topic here??? This has been a pretty interesting discussion and perhaps the OP has come to some different conclusions based on what some have posted. That would be a nice outcome, don't you think??? Sometimes, not often, but sometimes, posters can post even keeled posts that will get someone thinking about things from a different point of view. And perhaps that may lead to having a slightly different opinion than when they started out.
How about we focus on that kind of thing, rather than name calling. Otherwise, this thread is done.

 

[crashbb]

I think, basically it comes down to a societal choice:

1) It is more important that there are no "scammers" - so put in place may hoops to jump through; OR

2) It is more important that no one who needs accommodations misses out - so make it very easy to get accommodations.

Obviously, we aim for a middle ground, but we are always going to have to chose one side on which to err (similar, in some ways, to the debate between letting a guilty person go free versus putting an innocent person in jail).

 

[scuba]

First of all thanks to the moderator for leaving the thread open, without that I would have never come up with eye-opening conclusions

1.) Disney has no other option than to load EVCs, Their riders and family first. After seeing the trials the driver had while loading the ECV with a loaded bus my suggestion of having an able bodied family member wait in line also is most inefficent unless the said ECV riders family is first in line....and how many times does that happen to anyone? Disney Drivers must load Diabled persons first to allow for maneverabilites. If family members waitied in line, there would NEVER be an empty bus for the disabled ECV rider. They would wait forever. ECV riders get enough grief already, both from folks like me that "HAD" less than compassionate ideas about ECVs and their riders and folks who may still share the ideas I "HAD". I cannot imagine how upset I would have become prior to my revelation had a ECV rider ran over my foot after trying to load their ECV with a full bus. Thus Disney's best option is to load an empty bus.......Before I get on.

2.) Several have mentioned that my experience with our trip back to a resort and a driver loading a ECV with a fully loaded bus is unusual. leading me to believe the family might have had an unusual situation I was unaware of. ie..losing insulin, needing to get back for a breathing treatment, etc.

3.) the bus system works best for families who have older children, and not children who fall asleep in mothers arms. there is an inevitabilitiy that one might have to stand on a Disney bus. It appears as though in our families timeline we are not prepared to stand. So we have decided to rent a car until our girls get older. not because of intolerance of ECVs and disabled persons. because "I" and my family was unprepared to stand. With all the support equipment we must take I'm not certain we were prepared to even sit on Disney transportation

4.) There has to be far more folks who need ECVs than folks misusing the system. There may or may not be folks scamming the system, in fact I would believe that there might only be 1-2 folks per park even considering this as adventagious. And its pretty ridiculous an idea that an abled body person would want to rent a ECV/wheelchair and use it throughout their stay with the sole intent of getting on a ride or bus before me.

These are but a few of the realizations I have made for myself. I know that I do not have history on my side when it comes to message boards. There are most certainly folks who post just to stir things up, however there are folks who post who have genuine problems, who want to understand and vent. After hearing alot of the resoponses, Some kind, and some not so kind, I have concluded that I was most certainly the person with the wrong mind set. Not everyone who post controversial threads are into it to ruffle feathers and some have acknowleged that.....and I thank them all for that.

Lastly and most importantly, no one wants to ride in an ECV, no one ever makes that choice.....somehow even as a grouchy ER nurse, and maybe thats part of the problem, I have lost sight of this. I will leave you with this....The night my family was asked to stand on the bus, the initial moment I was horrified, "I" had felt wronged. Somehow I felt like we had been treated unfairly and when I posted all the threads I did, the memories were freshly still embedded in my mind. Since then I have unpacked all the pictures, pulled out all our Daughters princess dolls and pins and have played back some of the video and have come to the astonishing realization that I take what I have for granted and have lost site that i'm blessed.

For those that ride the ECVs I bid you all peace, relish in the fact that you have a believer and now an advocate. As a Nurse that was what was intended anyways, to be a nursing hand for those that need it. I have lost sight of that as well.....To those that feel ill of me, hopefully you can forgive me, to those that have felt I was a troll or attention ho, I hope you can realize now that was not my intent. Peace to you all, my prayers to everyone who have disability in their lives..........Eric