Scooter issues again

[goofieslonglostsis]

These two statements contradict each other. Your mind was made up before you posted (as you said in your OP).

Oh come on. Let's be honest; with these type of threads both sides will dig in more and more in no time.

Scuba has posted some things that could be considered not nice and/or judging, true. But what's up with the "you take my........"thingie that always gets played on these types of topics? Those who might judge a book on a cover don't respond to greatly to that, and I can't blame them for that. Both sides have been digging in and I can see where it will go from bad to worse on both sides. But does that do any good in the end?

What's the risk in taking a shot and ignoring some stuff that could be seen as oil on the fire and try to connect to the person behind it. Really? OK, it could result in nothing. So be it. But digging in surely wont get far, imho.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

Touche' again an impass. As is typical with discussions such as this.....care to discuss stroller etiquette?

Damned, I give an effort to not let this get out of hand and now you stir the stroller pot? You are evil sir, you surely are!

 

[bavaria]

scuba, your words and your posts have led people to make judgements on you. You chose to post as you did, acknowledging that you knew that your post would be inflammatory.

That may be your style, based on some other threads you started, but it does lead people to perceive you in a certain light.

If you want to be viewed as someone with some compassion or understanding, you may want to consider using less inflammatory words and tone. I know that I often come across as hard because I do not post with much emotion, but I can also temper that with humour. Some people choose to see that, others do not.

But the words do as much for the impression as the tone.

 

[clanmcculloch]

Scuba, I think you'll get a lot more understanding if you don't generalize and villianize the majority of people in ECVs and wheelchairs. You used an extremely condescending and hostile tone when describing a person with an ace bandage pushing a wheelchair. If the person has an ace bandage on her leg then she NEEDS some kind of mobility assistance device in order to navigate all those miles. Most likely she needs to walk periodically to avoid swelling (something that you should be aware of as a nurse) but she would be completely incapable of walking all the miles that are required at WDW. You say that you are only upset with those that misuse the system yet you were upset with somebody who visibly needs the wheelchair. Which is it? Are you only upset with misuse or do you resent all using mobility devices? You seem to believe that many, many people using ECVs and wheelchairs are misusing them. Nope. Just like anything, it's the minority that do wrong and the majority who use things as intended.

I do think that somebody in an ECV coming up to the bus after the doors have already closed should wait for the next bus. You did state that people even had to get off the bus in order to accomodate this party. I do think that instance was handled wrong. If it was a case of the ECV being at a second bus stop after you had loaded at a previous bus stop then the person in the ECV should be loaded into those accessible spots clearly labelled for wheelchairs and ECVs. I purposely don't sit in those seats unless these are the only available seats for this very reason.

You want CMs to police who uses ECVs. Interesting notion. Most ECVs are rented from off site companies. Should CMs at the gate question people coming into the parks? Should bus drivers questions people getting on busses? Do people with ECVs owe you and every other person they pass by an explaination of their needs? It's the only way that everybody will understand why they need ECVs. Obviously I know this isn't what you're asking for, but in your frustration you're missing that this is what you're saying you want and all because of the few that do misuse.

You'd probably be pretty upset if you saw me in the parks. One of my girls has a high functioning form of autism. We receive a Guest Assistance Card that allows us to use alternate entrances. You can't tell my daughter is disabled when you look at her; she comes across as a highly intelligent and well spoken girl. What you can't see is that we only spend max 3 hours, generally more like 2 per day at the parks because she'll have full blown meltdowns otherwise. What you can't see is that we have waited in some back room or quiet alternate waiting area for a while before we're brought to the line so it just looks like we're skipping lines. Remember that not all disabilities are obvious. If my parents were to join us for a trip (something I've been trying to convince them to do), they'd both need ECVs because my mom has permanent nerve damage in her back and my dad has bad knees. They both qualify for handicap parking permits due to these issues and my mom has been on disability for years because she can't sit or stand in the same place for any real period of time and my dad needs to move around to keep his knees from locking up yet he also can't walk for long periods of time. They both would likely be jumping out of their ECVs periodically and having DH and I drive them so they can move around yet they still need the ECVs. To onlookers, we'd look like a family who takes advantage and misuses. Please try to understand that you can't tell what's going on in a person's life by just a cursory glance.

 

[crashbb]

But what's up with the "you take my........"thingie that always gets played on these types of topics?

I actually totally agree with this (or rather that it is an annoying practice). The accommodations are NOT designed to make up for a difficult life, they are designed to ensure that those with disabilities can enjoy the park like everyone else. The "you take my....." thingie implies that the accommodations are a "reward" (totally wrong word, I'm just blanking on the right one) for their difficulties.

Further, it starts the whole "my disability trumps your disability" thing. Just start a thread about guide dogs versus those with allergies!

 

[Sleepy]

With all do respect Sleepy you have NO clue as to the amount of compassion and respect and sympathy I provide my patients. It's this very same closed mindedness YOU are charging me with. Unless you have actually been a patient of mine then you have no idea. I don't believe that I have personally attacked anyone but you madam/sir have really crossed a line. I posted the topic with the intention of learning, I have indeed even to the point where a ECV rider has invited me to come along with them to see what I don't....I have little time for comments like this accusing me of not being compassionate to patients....I've listen to several posts asking me to spend a day in their shoes......working in a very busy Trauma ER in Southern Ohio, I'm willing to bet you cannot fathom the things I have seen.

Post #29. I think you need to reread it.

 

[honugirl]

Scuba, you're right, I can't judge what kind of a nurse you would be in the ER. You may be completely wonderful. You may be having a bad day, I'll give you that.

It's hard for me to believe that someone who is both a nurse and someone who has dealt with illness would not be able to show a little more compassion for someone in an ECV. It's not sunshine, lollipops and rainbows.

I don't use the ECV to inconvenience you, that's not my intent. I just want to enjoy my vacation. I get embarrassed when I take up that many seats. I get even more embarrassed when the bus driver instructs me to sit because then I'm taking up another space. Most of the time I'll stand just to avoid even more nasty looks and comments even when my body is telling me not to.

I don't think anyone is going to change your mind on this subject. I really don't. I think it's just something you're going to have to learn for yourself someday. Good luck. I hope people are more kind and compassionate to you.

 

[scuba]

These two statements contradict each other. Your mind was made up before you posted (as you said in your OP).

One actually came before the other, you have them pasted the wrong way, Initially I was unwilling to change my position, I believe that the incosistance that is Disney needs to be changed, can anyone actually identify a reason why someone in a ECV cannot wait for an able bodied person to get thorugh a "LINE" or Queue before getting on a ride? I think Kaydieelder pointed out that Disney does infact ask that folks do try to wait until a scooter is loaded on a ride....I just have never seen it. doesn't prove it's not happening, just that i've not seen it.

AND, the fact that i'm willing to spend a few hours with someone who needs a ECV should indeed prove something. Typical message board picking through posts. We all are able to express ourselves in person better than a message board......we'll see how my time goes with Goofies.

 

[Virtucomp]

I have been at Disney and seen the bus driver tell a person in a ECV that they would have to wait for the next bus since there were already people on the bus.

I have also been on the bus and stood up to give my seat to a mother who was carrying a sleeping child. I can stand for the ride while the child (who I don't know) can have a seat. Unfortunately not everyone is willing to give up a seat.

 

[bavaria]

Unfortunately not everyone is willing to give up a seat.

Or able to give up a seat.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Touche' again an impass. As is typical with discussions such as this.....care to discuss stroller etiquette?

Actually, no. I didn't like my response - it was too terse - and so I changed it to a "." and then got distracted by real life.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

can anyone actually identify a reason why someone in a ECV cannot wait for an able bodied person to get thorugh a "LINE" or Queue before getting on a ride?

There can be reasons. For instance; if anybody accidently knocks into me or even touches me unexpected in the wrong way, I will dislocate a joint. Not too great. I've got a powerchair that allows me to use it as a 'shield'. Combine that with my ability to do so and I'm fine in most regular lines. However, somebody with the same condition and other aid and/or not my ability to 'shield' might not do well at all in lines.

But even more important; most of WDW is mainstream, especially at the 'newer' parks. Rides where wheelchairs and/or ECV's are 'diverted' will be lines that have an accessibility problem. It might mean a different line, it might mean having to be in the mainstream line first and than an accessible line (safari for instance), it might mean splitting up the waitlines to a situation where "you" no longer see 'us'. For instance, TSM has a split up point. While the line for those with wheels is shorter (as far as I know, can't check it myself ) in distance, it usually takes longer in time. All "you" see is us going into a different line not being able to see that behind the corner we're waiting our turn of an accessible cart which tends to take a lot longer.

Most lines are accessible in one way or another. When somebody only uses a mobility aid and has no other needs there is no need for any other accomodations. No need for a GAC as most lines are accessible and the need is visable. A ride either has accessible carts or not. That will be clear on the maps that will show accessibility. Depending on ones needs, they'll enter the ride or not. But for most, there is no need to accomodate more or different while in line. Biggest difference are the accessible carts and the number of those compared to the number of regular carts. As can be expected.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I do think that somebody in an ECV coming up to the bus after the doors have already closed should wait for the next bus. You did state that people even had to get off the bus in order to accomodate this party. I do think that instance was handled wrong.

I agree - if the parties that had to get off the bus were not then allowed back on, i.e. if they were asked to temporarily exit so the ECV user had room to maneuver vs. were they required to wait for the next bus.

But I also agree that I - in the ECV - would have waited for the next bus

 

[Sleepy]

can anyone actually identify a reason why someone in a ECV cannot wait for an able bodied person to get thorugh a "LINE" or Queue before getting on a ride?

From our experience this past summer, we never encountered a time when we could not, but then there were some rides we bypassed so I can't comment on those waiting areas for wheelchairs. It would imagine it would involve the CMs keeping a close attention on the wait time of the line to ensure everyone waited an equal amount.

In our experience with Spaceship Earth, we were escorted to the exit area and made to wait the appropriate amount of time compared to those in line. they came out and got us when they were ready for us....which was the time we were told to wait. Honestly, we were sent through the regular line of most of the rides we enjoyed.

 

[scuba]

Post #29. I think you need to reread it.

Well, I re-read my post. After 15 years of ER nursing you WILL see misuse of our ER system. Hopefully we can developed diffrences from someone who pushes a Wheelchair up to a loading ramp before 50 other folks in line? Her ankle was wrapped with an ace. I will back off of my stance that I truely wan't aware of her need for a WheelChair, but I will more accurately describe the event, just before the middle aged woman walked her Wheel chair on with her ace wrapped "injured" ankle( I left out BOO BOO) an older woman with O2(she appeared to have COPD, she had all the observable symptoms, Barrel chest, finger clubbing, maybe even CHF because she had noticeable pedal edema) Now the older woman I get in the scooter, It was almost surreal, that after the woman who appeared very much to need a ECV(i'm trying to use ECV because scooter sounds bad to me now) was followed by a woman with a back pack, ace wrapped barefoot ankle who got on board before 50 of us only to fold her wheelchair up and sit in the front part of the bus? Is that really that hard for folks to understand I might raise my eyebrow at this?

 

[bavaria]

Originally Posted by scuba
can anyone actually identify a reason why someone in a ECV cannot wait for an able bodied person to get thorugh a "LINE" or Queue before getting on a ride?

But that assumes that the person in the ECV has a shorter wait.

Have you ever ridden the Safari ride with someone in a wheelchair or ECV? Quite often the line for standby will be 20 minutes or less, and the line for those needing assistance is an hour or more. That is just one example of how the perception and the reality differ.

 

[bavaria]

Is that really that hard for folks to understand I might raise my eyebrow at this?

Yes

 

[Brian Noble]

There is really no one that can convince me that WDW policy on scotters is correct

Then what's the point of posting about it on a "discussion" board? Discussion boards are for discussing, not pontificating.

You'd be better served by getting a position as an entry level Cast Member. With diligence, and hard work over many years, you stand a chance of being promoted to a position of authority within the company so that you could change the policy. Of course, if you did so, you'd put the company in danger of running afoul of a variety of laws in a variety of ways, at which point TWDC's General Counsel's office will tell you that you can't do what you'd like to do.

So, feel free to remain unconvinced. It is, as of now, still a free country. But, your lack of convincedness is about all that will come of it.

 

[kaytieeldr]

followed by a woman with a back pack, ace wrapped barefoot ankle who got on board before 50 of us only to fold her wheelchair up and sit in the front part of the bus?

Um, how do you expect the woman with the "injured" (use of quotation marks around this word are equally objectionable to the earlier, entirely uncompassionate use of the word BOO-BOO, which it replaced - both indicate skepticism and sarcasm) to get the wheelchair on the bus? Even if she could lift it up to the entrance level at the front of the bus, since the buses all provide access for Guests using wheels, why SHOULD she use the front door when the ramp works better for her? Plus, entering up the ramp, she wasn't putting unnecessary/additional pressure on her injured ankle - as she would have been if she'd had to STEP UP INTO the bus from a different level.

By sitting at the front of the bus, she didn't have to move out of a seat that might then be needed by a Guest using an ECV.

 

[scuba]

There can be reasons. For instance; if anybody accidently knocks into me or even touches me unexpected in the wrong way, I will dislocate a joint. Not too great. I've got a powerchair that allows me to use it as a 'shield'. Combine that with my ability to do so and I'm fine in most regular lines. However, somebody with the same condition and other aid and/or not my ability to 'shield' might not do well at all in lines.

But even more important; most of WDW is mainstream, especially at the 'newer' parks. Rides where wheelchairs and/or ECV's are 'diverted' will be lines that have an accessibility problem. It might mean a different line, it might mean having to be in the mainstream line first and than an accessible line (safari for instance), it might mean splitting up the waitlines to a situation where "you" no longer see 'us'. For instance, TSM has a split up point. While the line for those with wheels is shorter (as far as I know, can't check it myself ) in distance, it usually takes longer in time. All "you" see is us going into a different line not being able to see that behind the corner we're waiting our turn of an accessible cart which tends to take a lot longer.

Most lines are accessible in one way or another. When somebody only uses a mobility aid and has no other needs there is no need for any other accomodations. No need for a GAC as most lines are accessible and the need is visable. A ride either has accessible carts or not. That will be clear on the maps that will show accessibility. Depending on ones needs, they'll enter the ride or not. But for most, there is no need to accomodate more or different while in line. Biggest difference are the accessible carts and the number of those compared to the number of regular carts. As can be expected.

Well if we can make this visit with one another come to light you will have to let us know about yourself, Our children have been known to hug strangers, I certainly don't want my children hurting you.

I'm afraid I've done a very poor job representing myself and my frustrations. maybe disliked worse than the evil Dark queen herself. I'm afraid that some of you have this horific impression of me that I know to be wrong.

Discussions like this lack the human side and facial expressions and real tone. I have been accused of using tone which seems funny to me because tone is a measurement of sound. Little words here and there like Boo Boo and Gimping my be imflammatory to some but are real common words used in the ER. Discussions like this are best in person.

It's ok really it is that I started the thread out emotional, maybe even mad. it's what happens later that counts....ask kaydieelder, he/she and I went round and round on a topic for days, as it turned out the solution was whats best for her/his family is different from mine and it was left at that, so despite what some think about men being un-teachable, some of us can and do learn.

I'm not in this to offend, not my intention, it appears as though I did and I regret that, and I hope a few can foregive me But i'm certainly not going to apoligize to anyone after feeling my family was...........well, it wasn't the best situation for my family and we corrected it by taking a different bus at a different stop. I contend that it will be best for everyone involved for us to rent a car next time. I think our children will benifit the most.