Schwartzenegger denies clemency for Tookie Williams

[Tigger_Magic]

Yes they did. And I can imagine all the high-fives by some. Sad, isn't it?

This whole sordid mess is sad starting with the point where Williams shot an innocent man in the back... twice. It ended with Williams death early this morning, which was, JMO, an appropriate punishment for the crimes of which he was convicted.

I don't imagine any high-fives going on. The fact that Williams ended up strapped to a gurney with IVs in both arms is tragic, but it was a choice he made when he made the decision to execute 4 people. He chose to act as judge, jury and executioner for those innocent people. This morning he was punished for those decisions.

Sad... yes. But sadder still is the thought of what those 4 murdered people could have accomplished had they been allowed to live.

 

[#1MMFan]

How cute! Take a quote completely out of context and then suggest a double-standard.

You're so welcome. Well I suppose it isn't really a "double standard"; more of a "contradiction in your beliefs".

 

[Tigger_Magic]

Ah, the unmistakable message that human life no longer deserves respect when it is useful to take it and that homicide is legitimate when deemed justified by pragmatic concerns.

Williams' life receives the exact same respect he showed his 4 victims' lives. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[tiggersmom2]

This whole sordid mess is sad starting with the point where Williams shot an innocent man in the back... twice. It ended with Williams death early this morning, which was, JMO, an appropriate punishment for the crimes of which he was convicted.

I don't imagine any high-fives going on. The fact that Williams ended up strapped to a gurney with IVs in both arms is tragic, but it was a choice he made when he made the decision to execute 4 people. He chose to act as judge, jury and executioner for those innocent people. This morning he was punished for those decisions.

Sad... yes. But sadder still is the thought of what those 4 murdered people could have accomplished had they been allowed to live.

Great post...I agree.

 

[#1MMFan]

If you choose not to see it, nothing I can say will change your vision. Not to veer this further off-track, but I believe all gov't. are allowed by God, not necessarily "put in place by God." Should you wish to continue that digression, we should probably start a new thread.

Please point it out. Gee, it must be like one of those "hidden mickey" things. I never can see them. Guess you must have the full and unabridged Bible with added clarification between the lines. Must order it off Amazon now...

 

[chyam]

I have spoken to many rape victims that have said they have been robbed of their very soul/life etc due to the rape. The personal emotional trauma to them is worse than if they had been killed.

Thank you........and also let me add another one to the list.......child molesters! After seeing just the couple of cases down here and the torture that these children endured I don't think their molesters could ever be rehibilitated, I still say that instead of warehousing all these "animals" the money should be used to help the "good, hard working people and the future generations of people who have morals and have a respect for another's life" Yes we are playing God by taking someone elses life but they played God when they took or ruined someone elses life! They seem to all be reabilitated and to find God once their lives are in danger!

 

[Tigger_Magic]

As much as I despise child molestors and rapists, I could not support the death penalty as an appropriate punishment for their crimes, as henious as they are (except where the criminal commits murder in the course of their other crimes).

Now, if you want to talk about the use of a dull, rusty scalpel to permanently "fix" these deviants, then you'll get my wholehearted support.

 

[goofygirl]

Tookie Williams was just someone playing the "Kid Card."


"I *care* about kids, I was wrong and I wanna show them right, so I wrote some kids' books, so now you please let me live, I'm *entitled*! Nevermind that I killed 4 people in cold blood!"

Enter the dopey celebs who want to jump on this bandwagon (or shall I say TRAINWRECK)

I guess the God Card didn't work, or maybe he tried it already- you know, the old "I found God, I'm a chaaaanged maaayyn , so let me be! Nevermind that I KILLED a bunch of people..."

Anyway...he's dead now. This is the first sensible thing I have seen Ah-nold do.

I also think the Nobel Peace Prize Committee has lost all credibility. The gave one to Arafat, and one to this gangbanger, I mean what the ???!! I think its time for them to retire!

 

[Skylarr29]

 

[N.Bailey]

You think that when a person is guilty of rape without murder they should be executed? Does that not even go beyond eye for an eye? More like head for an eye. A little extreme I would have thought.

I see you're also trying to imply that I believe a person should be executed for rape. Nowhere in any of my posts did I ever state I believed that. I was only pointing out what the Bible has to say about it.

God believes that rape can completely destroy a person's soul. In effect, killing a victim or a part of the victim.

My opinions on the DP do not stem from any religious beliefs whatsoever. My only purpose for bringing it up was that 1st response to you. IMO, religion is a personal choice and should play no part in the laws of our land.

As for judging others. I was not a part of that jury pool that sentenced this man to death, so I passed no judgments. IF I am ever on a jury and asked to do so however, I could and would in good conscience sentence someone to the death penalty IF the evidence proved to me beyond ANY doubt that the accused was guilty. If I had lingering doubt, I would opt for life without parole. IMO, that's the one area where I do believe the law should be changed. A reasonable doubt is okay during the guilt/innocence phase, but I fully believe it should be beyond any doubt for sentencing someone to death.

IMO, if you purposely take a life, you give up your right to life! Yes, that's opinion, but I feel it's the only way, we, as a society, keep the value on life.

Yes, it's more expensive when the DP is sought. IMO, finding a way to speed up the appellant process (having enough appellant attorneys would be a good place to start) would go a long way in reducing those costs though. As it stands now, we feed them, house them, medicate them, etc. for upward to 20-30 years, and pay all the court costs/attorney fees etc. too. If we could cut out the costs of feeding, housing, medicating them, costs would be reduced. For anyone wishing to respond to that, in no way do I feel they should be denied their due process. I just feel their due process should be sped up.

Carlie Brucia's mother made it hit home in way I'd never thought of before. She said, even if Joseph Smith gets the DP (the jury has thankfully recommended it btw) he will have more years to appeal than her daughter got in life.

How sad it that?

 

[N.Bailey]

I agree with the first two. But personaly witness is about as NOT clear cut as you can get! Ask 100 people what you saw and you'll probably get many variations. Witnesses lie, witnesses forget, witnesses can be swayed, etc.

I agree with you and it's the number 1 reason so many have been wrongfully convicted. With today's DNA testing, forensics is proving it to be so time, and time again.

 

[Tigger_Magic]

Carlie Brucia's mother made it hit home in way I'd never thought of before. She said, even if Joseph Smith gets the DP (the jury has thankfully recommended it btw) he will have more years to appeal than her daughter got in life.

How sad it that?

There are not enough words to express how sad that is. What is sadder still is that for Williams and one day Smith their deaths will be a lot easier and to some degree more merciful for them than the deaths of their victims. Real (raw) justice would be for them to die the same way their victims did. But because they don't, there's an example of humanity for those who question the death penalty.

 

[N.Bailey]

There are not enough words to express how sad that is. What is sadder still is that for Williams and one day Smith their deaths will be a lot easier and to some degree more merciful for them than the deaths of their victims. Real (raw) justice would be for them to die the same way their victims did. But because they don't, there's an example of humanity for those who question the death penalty.

I forget what movie it was, but an actor said it so much better than I ever could and I can't get an exact quote, but it was something to the extent of, forgiveness is between them and their God, it's my job to arrange the meeting!

I know, it sounds pretty unsympathetic, but I have little sympathy for anyone who could knowingly and willfully take another person's life. I'm ONLY talking about 1st degree, premeditated murder here. Manslaughter is in a whole different category, as it should be.

God said, vengeance is mine. We do not execute to seek revenge a victim's life.

 

[#1MMFan]

God said, vengeance is mine. We do not execute to seek revenge a victim's life.

Oh, so, let me see... you execute to .. ahem... "arrange the meeting"?? Words cannot express how contemptuous I am of some of these twisted explanations. I am not condoning for one second what any of these murderers did, but 2 wrongs don't make it right. I would say, why don't you give God's angels a little call to find out the official word from the Almighty, but it turns out that a little while after 4 unscheduled arrivals at heaven, he found himself with yet another unscheduled arrival. Go figure.

 

[N.Bailey]

Oh, so, let me see... you execute to .. ahem... "arrange the meeting"?? Words cannot express how contemptuous I am of some of these twisted explanations. I am not condoning for one second what any of these murderers did, but 2 wrongs don't make it right. I would say, why don't you give God's angels a little call to find out the official word from the Almighty, but it turns out that a little while after 4 unscheduled arrivals at heaven, he found himself with yet another unscheduled arrival. Go figure.

That was a joke, but I see you failed to see the humor in it.

We execute to punish and punish only. God will have the ultimate say in the end.

Got the number to God's little angels btw?

I can certainly respect that people have varying opinions concerning the DP. You personally used scripture to back your position up or tried to anyway and that doesn't fly when I know the Bible says otherwise.

Now, if you're simply opposed to the DP because you think it's inhumane or what not, I respect that, however I don't agree with it.

Read thru the Manson murders sometime and see how Susan Atkins had a climax (hope that gets thru word filters) as she was stabbing Sharon Tate to death. Read thru and see how Leno *****nca cried out for them stop stabbing him because he was already dead. They loved that they had that effect on him. You wanna talk about a different set a murders? Name it, if their notorious, I'm probably well aware of the circumstances. I wish I could be as familiar with them all, but unfortunately, that's not possible. All the victims deserve justice though and each murder is about as hideous as the next.

You sympathize all you want. I'll place my sympathies with the REAL victim and the victim's family members.

 

[#1MMFan]

That was a joke, but I see you failed to see the humor in it.

We execute to punish and punish only. God will have the ultimate say in the end.

Got the number to God's little angels btw?

I can certainly respect that people have varying opinions concerning the DP. You personally used scripture to back your position up or tried to anyway and that doesn't fly when I know the Bible says otherwise.

Now, if you're simply opposed to the DP because you think it's inhumane or what not, I respect that, however I don't agree with it.

Read thru the Manson murders sometime and see how Susan Atkins had a climax (hope that gets thru word filters) as she was stabbing Sharon Tate to death. Read thru and see how Leno *****nca cried out for them stop stabbing him because he was already dead. They loved that they had that effect on him. You wanna talk about a different set a murders? Name it, if their notorious, I'm probably well aware of the circumstances. I wish I could be as familiar with them all, but unfortunately, that's not possible. All the victims deserve justice though and each murder is about as hideous as the next.

You sympathize all you want. I'll place my sympathies with the REAL victim and the victim's family members.

I'm not sympathising. I don't believe it is right to kill anyone on any grounds whatsoever. Period.

 

[Jabber_Jaws]

Too bad his kids did not read his books. Might of kept them out of jail.


Cheers:

 

[lookingforward]

I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think it accomplishes anything (does it ever end the suffering of those left behind?). I am a victim advocate so I am very supportive of victim rights and I have worked directly with family members of those murdered. Some, not all, want to see the convicted put to death. All (that i have met) want the perpetrator to suffer. But suffering is difficult to measure. I fear that mistakes can be made by mankind and that God will punish those who do wrong in his own way. I also feel that those involved in the death penalty process must suffer. How must the nurse who puts in the lethal I.V. feel months and years later? What damage does it do the guards and administrators who must sit there and watch the condemned in their last hours? So much suffering on top of suffering. To me (just my opinion, please be nice) I think it would be better to make convicted criminals work, doing manual labor. Not to punish them physically but to help pay for their upkeep. A life in jail, without freedom and family, is emotionally painful and long. And although I am not sure, I think it is cheaper to pay for that then for the death penalty appeal process which can take a quater of a century. (actually most on death row die from natural causes because it takes so long) I am so glad I have discovered the community boards because it is so though provoking and interesting!

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I'm glad he's dead before the Hollywood celebs and Jesse "race monger" Jackson and his ilk made him an even bigger hero.

Murder a few people with a shotgun -- expect to die pig.

 

[djm99]

IMO, the death penalty isn't set up to rehabilitate a person, its set up to sit and wait till the day you die. What’s sad about this case and many like this one, the state of California likely (IMO) didn't kill that stupid twenty something year old boy. The state of California killed a man who may have been rehabilitated. Now, Tookie claims to be innocent of the crime he was accused and his life could have been spared if he just said he was sorry. I read Arnold’s denial speech and he emphasized why he couldn't give clemency to a man who shows no remorse for the crime he was convicted of (I understood Arnold’s position). Let’s say (for arguments sake) that Tookie is innocent of the crimes he was found guilty of. There is no way someone can tell me that the co-founder of the crips didn't kill, rob, harm, or something or someone at some time during his gang banging times.

Lastly, I will admit many will find my views on the death penalty hypocritical - I'll admit that, but I hope young people will view Tookie’s death as a lesson learned. We are always being judged on our past - so be careful what you do - even 25 years after a crime - people are still fixated on what 24 year old Tookie William did not what 50 something year old Stanley William was doing. Stay peaceful…