Scared to death by the restrictions on resale pts thread

Obviously in truth I don't know what's going to happen. I would argue that some kind of tiered point class system would be fundamentally different then say things like Valet parking, but who knows. :confused3

I guess - in short - as I've said it earlier, I think (depending on the differences in the tiered service) that such a move undermines DVC's entire value proposition. This IMO could be a real game changer, at a time when buyers of DVC are likely (I'm guessing here) more scarce than ever; this guess is largely due to the realities of our current global economy. I think this could perpetuate that notion, and further drive down the price of the re-sale market which in turn also drives down DVC's ability to charge top dollar to gain new members.

Even the Magic of Disney does not supersede the powers of supply and demand ... but good on them to keep trying! :3dglasses

Just my 2 cents

Happy Thanks Giving to All OF MY American Friends! :thumbsup2

Cheers,
Zebsterama
:hippie: pirate:
IMO the mystique of Disney has already gone beyond simple supply and demand. IMO, I think you give the average buyer way too much credit. Most buy having no idea of the real value of what they are buying. Just look around this board and you'll see people that have bought mostly for cruises and the like. I've seen CPA's and tax attorney's buy into timeshares worth pennies on the dollar when they walked out the door. Any VIP or tiered system would certain draw more people to buy DVC than did before even though a few would likely walk away.
 
I would imagine that DVD's main focus and ultimate interest is in selling new points and not in re-selling old ones. After all, the real profit is in new direct sales. Since the disparity between resale and direct sales prices is already quite large, it makes sense that DVD would be looking for ways to make direct sales more attractive to prospective buyers.

The ability to offer perks to direct purchasers that would not be available to others is really one of the best ways to add value to the concept of direct sales while diminishing the appeal of resales.

And as a bonus, DVD could simply abandon any pretense of support for the ROFR process since a) it's not really working anyway and b) the value that ROFR was supposed to protect, ie limiting the spread between direct and resale prices, could be shifted from pure dollars to the new perks and features only available to direct sales purchasers. So, logically, it makes sense. But who knows?
 
Honestly I see both Dean's point of view on it and also zebsterama.

The Disney and DVC of the past would have never done this.

The DVC of now led by Jim Lewis, where sales is priority, yes I can definitely see them doing this.
 
Honestly I see both Dean's point of view on it and also zebsterama.

The Disney and DVC of the past would have never done this.

The DVC of now led by Jim Lewis, where sales is priority, yes I can definitely see them doing this.
Unfortunately one side is reality and the other is what members would like to believe. As I state earlier, these type of statements (people won't buy due to the change, DVC's reputation will suffer, etc) were made about other changes that have happened and proven not to be accurate from a sales standpoint. The bottom line is it really doesn't matter much what the current members think about how sales are done unless they don't add on enough to make a statement or they talk down the system enough to actually affect sales.
 

Unfortunately one side is reality and the other is what members would like to believe. As I state earlier, these type of statements (people won't buy due to the change, DVC's reputation will suffer, etc) were made about other changes that have happened and proven not to be accurate from a sales standpoint. The bottom line is it really doesn't matter much what the current members think about how sales are done unless they don't add on enough to make a statement or they talk down the system enough to actually affect sales.

Totally agree. popcorn::
 
Unfortunately one side is reality and the other is what members would like to believe. As I state earlier, these type of statements (people won't buy due to the change, DVC's reputation will suffer, etc) were made about other changes that have happened and proven not to be accurate from a sales standpoint. The bottom line is it really doesn't matter much what the current members think about how sales are done unless they don't add on enough to make a statement or they talk down the system enough to actually affect sales.

Exactly, there was a time where DVC would have cared about how a change would be received by the current membership. They now only care about how it affects future sales.

As you say only time will tell if a move such as this sours the current membership enough to have a backlash.
 
Just dosen't make sense.

Why would anyone buy anything that is limited. Nobody buys something thinking they will re-sell.....but life happens and one always thinks of the possibility.


I agree that Disney "has to do something"....resale prices are much lower.....but limiting membership would be just STUPID. Was thinking of adding on for xmas.....I won't buy a single point till I know they will not be worthless!!!!!!
Kerri
 
Unfortunately one side is reality and the other is what members would like to believe. As I state earlier, these type of statements (people won't buy due to the change, DVC's reputation will suffer, etc) were made about other changes that have happened and proven not to be accurate from a sales standpoint. The bottom line is it really doesn't matter much what the current members think about how sales are done unless they don't add on enough to make a statement or they talk down the system enough to actually affect sales.

I believe the majority of other timeshares have already implemented the resale vs direct policy. I suspect, they heard similar rumblings but it likely had little impact on the bottom line.

Most timeshare purchases are made while someone is on vacation having a great time. It's often an emotional purchase.
 
Just dosen't make sense.

Why would anyone buy anything that is limited. Nobody buys something thinking they will re-sell.....but life happens and one always thinks of the possibility.


I agree that Disney "has to do something"....resale prices are much lower.....but limiting membership would be just STUPID. Was thinking of adding on for xmas.....I won't buy a single point till I know they will not be worthless!!!!!!
Kerri
Are you really going to wait to add on based on this thread in a forum like this? All this is pure speculation based on a rumors that come from who knows where. Can they do something? Yes. But based on that logic you will never add on because it will always be a possiblity.
 
Unfortunately one side is reality and the other is what members would like to believe.

Let me just say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. :rolleyes1

In case anyone is wondering - I'm actually not a DVC member; came really close once - was just about to sign the deal via a direct sale / AKV Kidani (just before it was built) but at the last minute re-thought it.

That was two years ago, and with all due respect, I now say thank goodness.

Love Disney; love going and taking my family there. Have had extended stays at AKV and WL and a smaller stay at Port Orleans. We still might still buy into DVC, but no way I'm buying direct (unless I win the lottery), I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense based on the current supply and demand. The deflated prices are there for a reason - not by accident.

Creating a restrictive provision for re-sales hurts the entire value proposition, and I believe that there are enough non-emotional/rational buyers out there, especially now, (many lessons learned as a result of experiencing/living in the worst recession of our lifetime) that will balk at the idea, IMO. Obviously I can very well be wrong. :headache:

We'll see if they officially do it, and if there are any consequences. I again would argue that depending on what the restriction is, it could raise more eyebrows than say valet parking. It's like saying "Hey you buy this it's great -- just don't plan on selling it at any time should something come up because I won't honor it if you do, even though it's exactly the same product."
I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Cheers,
Zebsterama
:hippie:pirate:
 
Creating a restrictive provision for re-sales hurts the entire value proposition, and I believe that there are enough non-emotional/rational buyers out there, especially now, (many lessons learned as a result of experiencing/living in the worst recession of our lifetime) that will balk at the idea, IMO. Obviously I can very well be wrong. :headache::

What you miss is that few timeshare enjoy much resale value, so I would disagree that resale prices dropping or resale restrictions affects value, unless you plan on only using the DVC for a couple years, then selling to recoup a maximum, to offset your usage.

The real value in any timeshare is your use of the timeshare.

If you purchased DVC, and consistently traveled to DIsneyworld and used your points, that is where the value would be...and that holds true for any timeshare. Resale prices to drop to a penny per point, and I would still be receiving "value" from my DVC.
 
What you miss is that few timeshare enjoy much resale value, so I would disagree that resale prices dropping or resale restrictions affects value, unless you plan on only using the DVC for a couple years, then selling to recoup a maximum, to offset your usage.

The real value in any timeshare is your use of the timeshare.

If you purchased DVC, and consistently traveled to DIsneyworld and used your points, that is where the value would be...and that holds true for any timeshare. Resale prices to drop to a penny per point, and I would still be receiving "value" from my DVC.

I've thought about it some more and I've come to realize that you're right and that I have been way off the mark about this possibly making a dent in the overall value of DVC.

When Disney makes such a change, DVC sales will skyrocket as a result. In fact if they're really smart they'll begin to raise their prices. I don't know why they haven't done so already. Why all the discounts, why all the point incentives?

IN fact they should restrict re-selling altogether - that will surely increase their bottom line exponentially.

What I find comical about this debate is that those that are hard-set on the opposite side can't even conceive of how this might hinder sales or the overall value. :confused3

It's like an IMPOSSIBILITY .... Disney can do whatever they like and no one will ever flinch at what they're selling. Like come on people ... :scared1:

I'm not saying that if DVC changes its policy that direct sales will go into the toilet (although I'm guessing that if they're really considering these kinds of - I would say - radical measures, it's sure interesting), what I am saying is that don't be SO convinced that this can't be a game changer.

IMO I think a lot of people are blinded by their own emotional attachments, which is great because DVC counts on that, but I'm just wondering how far that currency can take you in this economy.

The Lada was also the best selling car in the USSR in the mid-1970's ... :lmao:

I'm just saying let's be open to the idea ... please don't tell me this is like DVC taking away some small perk. You must admit it's more substantial than that.

In all seriousness, I apologize, I'm not honestly trying to come across as being confrontational, just for the sake of being confrontational, I'm just trying to propose an alternative point of view.

Again I guess we'll just have to see if anything is done at all, and what the fallout is, if any.

Cheers,
Zebsterama
pirate::hippie:
 
I've thought about it some more and I've come to realize that you're right and that I have been way off the mark about this possibly making a dent in the overall value of DVC.

When Disney makes such a change, DVC sales will skyrocket as a result. In fact if they're really smart they'll begin to raise their prices. I don't know why they haven't done so already. Why all the discounts, why all the point incentives?

IN fact they should restrict re-selling altogether - that will surely increase their bottom line exponentially.

What I find comical about this debate is that those that are hard-set on the opposite side can't even conceive of how this might hinder sales or the overall value. :confused3

It's like an IMPOSSIBILITY .... Disney can do whatever they like and no one will ever flinch at what they're selling. Like come on people ... :scared1:

I'm not saying that if DVC changes its policy that direct sales will go into the toilet (although I'm guessing that if they're really considering these kinds of - I would say - radical measures, it's sure interesting), what I am saying is that don't be SO convinced that this can't be a game changer.

IMO I think a lot of people are blinded by their own emotional attachments, which is great because DVC counts on that, but I'm just wondering how far that currency can take you in this economy.

The Lada was also the best selling car in the USSR in the mid-1970's ... :lmao:

I'm just saying let's be open to the idea ... please don't tell me this is like DVC taking away some small perk. You must admit it's more substantial than that.

In all seriousness, I apologize, I'm not honestly trying to come across as being confrontational, just for the sake of being confrontational, I'm just trying to propose an alternative point of view.

Again I guess we'll just have to see if anything is done at all, and what the fallout is, if any.

Cheers,
Zebsterama
pirate::hippie:

I'm sorry you saw the need to answer a post with sarcasm. It does little to advance your point of view.

I was pointing out that there are other measures of "value" than the strict definition of resale price that you are assigning, and it is true. I purchased direct at about $52. That price, and considering the maintenance fees, did indeed give me true "value" on my investment over the years...anything, if anything, I would receive it I chose to sell would be icing on the cake....but there is still value for me in my membership. If they impose restrictions on resale buyers (which I think is doubtful, but possible) my DVC will still have value in the use of the product. And it is the same with any timeshare, the value is in the owner's use, as I stated.

Disney has the legal ability to impose such restrictions, I still think it is extremely doubtful. But you seem to think Disney has some sort of "obligation" to existing owners to support resale value and that is simply not true. DVD, the development and sales division, has a legal responsibility to the Walt Disney Company stockholders, not the owners, or resale purchasers.

It has nothing to do with defending Disney, or thinking such restrictions would be a good idea, which I don't. On the other hand, it seems to work for other timeshare companies, and I'm sure Disney has the necessary data to back up any marketing decisions they may make.
 
Are you really going to wait to add on based on this thread in a forum like this? All this is pure speculation based on a rumors that come from who knows where. Can they do something? Yes. But based on that logic you will never add on because it will always be a possiblity.

Not really.....I'm only a member for a few years......Lots of changes that people thought wouldn't happen.

Smoking...dont' care
Point chart chart changes....Now low season costs me more than it did before. I liked the Sun- Fri low point....allowed me to go more often....Now I can't...No biggie I adjust.

But if there is a possiblity that my membership would change completely.....That is totally worth it for me to wait till after the "announcement". It's only a month or so away.
I can't tell you how furious I would be to add on now and a month later Big changes....No changes...hey I can always add on.l
Kerri
 
In all seriousness, I apologize, I'm not honestly trying to come across as being confrontational, just for the sake of being confrontational, I'm just trying to propose an alternative point of view.
The problem is, the available evidence about how timeshare sales really work doesn't support your view.

Most people who buy timeshare do so having done almost no research before taking the tour. They are on vacation, having the time of their lives, and the sales tour gives them the opportunity to bottle that feeling, and keep it for years to come. The fact that there may be some impediments to resale just don't matter to them---they are not ever thinking of selling, they are thinking about how to bottle vacation magic.

What's more, those impediments are not even likely to come up during the tour, except in positive terms. ("If you buy direct, you get a free daily newspaper!") The one time they are guaranteed to come up: if the prospect asks why the resale price is so different, the sales staff will tell them all the reasons why buying from them is the only way to go.

These reasons don't even really need to be material---they just need to give the sense that you'd be missing out on something important if you don't buy direct. The psychology of a timeshare pitch is to convince the prospect to be an "owner", not just a lowly renter, so that you can recapture this feeling forever by pre-paying for it. So, implying that the secondary market is second class (even if, in reality, it isn't)---that it might not be as wonderful as this is---feeds into this psychology and helps tip a few more sales.

I will grant you that a rational, dispassionate customer would see through this and wonder what happens if they have to sell. But, the rational, dispassionate consumers are far outnumbered by those folks chasing pixie dust trails with a bottle in one hand, and a cork in the other! So, the theory is that losing a few rational customers is more than made up by closing even more of the "making vacation memories forever" prospects. That's particularly true because those rational customers tend to be less willing to buy in the first place---they are making a dollars-and-cents decision, not an emotional one.

Now, it's true that this is all speculation---I don't know for sure that the emotional buyers outnumber the dispassionate ones. But the evidence suggests that they do, because we know three things:
  1. Nearly every other developer has found some form of resale differentiation to be valuable to their business. In particular, all of the largest ones have---and that includes name brands like Starwood, Marriott, etc. Now, they could be all wrong, and these differentiators could be hurting their business, rather than helping it, but that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
  2. It is clear that other timeshare systems continue to sell at a healthy clip even though resale values are quite low---including those systems whose values drop by 90% by the time the rescission period ends, just a few days or weeks after pen hits paper.
  3. It is also clear that having at least the veneer of a differentiation between developer purchases and those on the secondary market is a useful arrow in the sales quiver. On other timeshare-oriented boards, we see those who have done some research and know the differences in price getting bamboozled by smoke-and-mirror differences that, in dollars-and-cents terms, really don't matter.
This last one is particularly interesting---even people who could be classified as "careful shoppers" get wrapped up in the you would be missing out on important stuff narrative. So, if you add it all up, it seems to be more of a question of "when" and "what", not "if".

But, it is not all doom and gloom. For the most part, systems that have added differentiators after the fact have only nibbled around the edges, rather than created differences with real teeth. In general, this is because it is hard to make retroactive changes to the governing documents that only affect a subset of all ownerships. The ones that do have real teeth---the Marriott point system and the Diamond trust---were created with those resale restrictions in place from the very beginning. So, my completely uninformed guess is that whatever DVC comes up with in the way of differentiation, it too will be more bark than bite. That's okay for DVC, as we've seen that such differences are enough to sway people on the sales floor at other systems, and that's the only thing DVC really needs out of this. What's more, that's pretty good news for current owners, because the overall market tends to view these sorts of things for what they really are in dollars-and-cents terms. And, if that's "not much", then it won't harm resale values much vs. what we are already seeing with the growth of DVC: steadily increasing supply in the face of relatively static demand.

Exactly, there was a time where DVC would have cared about how a change would be received by the current membership. They now only care about how it affects future sales.
With all due respect, Sammie, I suspect that the only thing that has really changed is your perception of the system. I'd bet a mickeybar that they've only cared about future sales all along.
 
With all due respect, Sammie, I suspect that the only thing that has really changed is your perception of the system. I'd bet a mickeybar that they've only cared about future sales all along

I think if they had felt any of these rumored changes would have enhanced sales in the 90s they would have considered them.

My perception is based on the actions of DVC. There are many things that DVC has done in the last 5 years that align them more with other timeshares than in the past.

In fact for many years, including the year we bought one of their major sales points was, DVC is not a timeshare and therefore will not act like one.

I am sure they have always cared about future sales. There was a time though they felt the best sales person for DVC was a current member.

I don't think they feel that way at all now.

I know prior to the last 5 year I would gladly sell for them and did resulting in many sucessful referrals.

That will not be happening from me at this time.
 
Not really.....I'm only a member for a few years......Lots of changes that people thought wouldn't happen.

Smoking...dont' care
Point chart chart changes....Now low season costs me more than it did before. I liked the Sun- Fri low point....allowed me to go more often....Now I can't...No biggie I adjust.

But if there is a possiblity that my membership would change completely.....That is totally worth it for me to wait till after the "announcement". It's only a month or so away.
I can't tell you how furious I would be to add on now and a month later Big changes....No changes...hey I can always add on.l
Kerri
What announcement are you talking about? Disney has never said they are making any announcement about changes.
 
Just dosen't make sense.

Why would anyone buy anything that is limited. Nobody buys something thinking they will re-sell.....but life happens and one always thinks of the possibility.


I agree that Disney "has to do something"....resale prices are much lower.....but limiting membership would be just STUPID. Was thinking of adding on for xmas.....I won't buy a single point till I know they will not be worthless!!!!!!
Kerri
As I noted, it really doesn't matter whether a given person will buy, only the aggregate. IMO, many people have bought in to DVC where it did not make sense. I think you give people way too much credit The reality is that if people made good decisions in these areas there would not be an industry call Timeshares.

Let me just say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. :rolleyes1

In case anyone is wondering - I'm actually not a DVC member; came really close once - was just about to sign the deal via a direct sale / AKV Kidani (just before it was built) but at the last minute re-thought it.

That was two years ago, and with all due respect, I now say thank goodness.

Love Disney; love going and taking my family there. Have had extended stays at AKV and WL and a smaller stay at Port Orleans. We still might still buy into DVC, but no way I'm buying direct (unless I win the lottery), I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense based on the current supply and demand. The deflated prices are there for a reason - not by accident.

Creating a restrictive provision for re-sales hurts the entire value proposition, and I believe that there are enough non-emotional/rational buyers out there, especially now, (many lessons learned as a result of experiencing/living in the worst recession of our lifetime) that will balk at the idea, IMO. Obviously I can very well be wrong. :headache:

We'll see if they officially do it, and if there are any consequences. I again would argue that depending on what the restriction is, it could raise more eyebrows than say valet parking. It's like saying "Hey you buy this it's great -- just don't plan on selling it at any time should something come up because I won't honor it if you do, even though it's exactly the same product."
I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Cheers,
Zebsterama
:hippie:pirate:
Lets say for sake of discussion that 5% of people don't buy by any route, due to such a change, that would have bought otherwise. But that 2% more people buy retail and 7% less resale (you pick the numbers). In that scenario, it's a win for DVD and current members haven't lost anything unless they go to sell (making appropriate assumptions). I don't disagree that this would be a bigger issue than valet parking should have been but there was a lot of discussion along similar lines by a passionate group of people. A better comparison is likely the reallocation. My point though was that a number of people made the same comments about all 3 issues (1 week reservation, valet, reallocation) at one time or another.

Obviously much of the discussion has centered on the idea that current members would remain whole unless they went to sell and that most likely, previously resale buyers would be counted the same as retail. While I think both are very likely true, they are not the only choices. There are ways for DVC to get additional monies out of many current owners. For sake of discussion, lets assume that DVC started a new system, say DVC II, which consisted of 2 new resorts (say Poly & GF). Lets further assume they excluded current members but gave them the option of converting over to the new system for either a fee and/or new retail purchase. If you didn't covert you'd keep the current options but not have the new options.

I think if they had felt any of these rumored changes would have enhanced sales in the 90s they would have considered them.

My perception is based on the actions of DVC. There are many things that DVC has done in the last 5 years that align them more with other timeshares than in the past.

In fact for many years, including the year we bought one of their major sales points was, DVC is not a timeshare and therefore will not act like one.

I am sure they have always cared about future sales. There was a time though they felt the best sales person for DVC was a current member.

I don't think they feel that way at all now.

I know prior to the last 5 year I would gladly sell for them and did resulting in many sucessful referrals.

That will not be happening from me at this time.
As Brian says, I think it's more perception that a true philosophic change. What has changed is the economy. DVD doesn't have the luxury of taking the high road and still having adequate sales like they did at one point.
 
As Brian says, I think it's more perception that a true philosophic change. What has changed is the economy. DVD doesn't have the luxury of taking the high road and still having adequate sales like they did at one point.

That I agree with, but I think their approach has definitely changed. Now given the economy might have forced the change but I still they their approach to sales has changed alot since we bought in the 90s.
 
That I agree with, but I think their approach has definitely changed. Now given the economy might have forced the change but I still they their approach to sales has changed alot since we bought in the 90s.
IMO it is likely to evolve and change further away from what many here see as their perception of what DVC is supposed to be. They simply don't have the luxury anymore to ride along As I've pointed out on other threads about similar issues, DVD's passive approach has had a cost, specifically in terms of at least 3 off property resorts and higher fees, esp at VB.
 



New Posts

















DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest

Back
Top