Saying grace...

[auntpolly]

Ok, but can we agree that it seems hypocritical of George to want people to respect his wish to not have prayer in his home, but then shouldn't he show the same consideration when in other people's home by repecting what they do?? If not, then the people that enter his home that would be "offended" by not being invited to pray, should just do it any way to make their beliefs known.

That's all I'm sayin'.

 

[GeorgeG]

One more thought...

I don't usually get up and walk out on people... usually. One exception has been that even as a musician for many years, including the 60s and the 70s, I have never tolerated drugs. Some of the musicians I have played with learned very quickly that when the pot came out George packed up and left. Contrary to what you may believe, most of the musicians I've played with felt the same as me.

 

[themarquis]

I apologize if I've mixed you up with someone else. If you are in my home and we are saying grace and you don't run to the bathroom to avoid it -- you don't have to like it or even listen (be like Homer Simpson and think about Chocolate Town instead if you like) but you can respect us because that's what we do and you respect the practices of people different than yourself, then we have no problem. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

If you think I haven't been to dinner with atheists talking about what they believe, you're wrong. I love talking to people about what they believe - it never makes me uncomfortable -- all I want is the same consideration.

I love talking to others about their beliefs, as well. I just tend to draw the line at having to participate in their belief system.

But you and I are good -- we should have each other over for dinner. I promise to sit through your dinner time prayers without giving you any lip. And after dinner at my house we can talk about philosophical arguments against the existence of god and you can disagree all you want... it'll be fun.

 

[TDC Nala]

One more thought...

I don't usually get up and walk out on people... usually. One exception has been that even as a musician for many years, including the 60s and the 70s, I have never tolerated drugs. Some of the musicians I have played with learned very quickly that when the pot came out George packed up and left. Contrary to what you may believe, most of the musicians I've played with felt the same as me.

well, that I would have to do, because I'd like to keep my job.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

I wonder how the Pilgrims and Native Americans dealt with this issue.

 

[smartestnumber5]

I have friends that are atheists - I accept their right to believe whatever they want. I would be very hurt if they acted like what I believed was something weird or shameful or if they couldn't stand to be near me when I was practicing my religion. But they wouldn't do that. They ask me questions about my church. I know they aren't interested in converting, but they are curious.

Actually reading this post made me realize that, though I've been friends with numerous religious people, I've never had any kind of issue about religion with any of them. (Hopefully they can say the same about me.) I've talked about religion with many of them and we've explained what we believe and why we believe it, but I've never been made uncomfortable (and I don't think they have either).

But I have had numerous problems with my family about religion--not specifically about saying grace, but in general. I was rather young when I stopped wanting to go to church--maybe 14 or so, and had become a staunch atheist by around age 16. My whole family--even extended cousins, great uncles, etc--was the same religion, so it was understandably shocking and upsetting to them. At first they tended to be a little condescending/dismissive-- "Well you're just a kid. You'll change your mind when you get older." Then after a few more years they seemed to accept that I really was an atheist and this wasn't going to change any time soon, and some of them started trying to engage me in debate about it--with an attitude of "You're crazy--how can anyone not believe in God!?" Two years ago I was invited to my cousin's house under the pretense of "I hardly ever see you anymore. Come talk to me about your life." After some small talk suddenly he said, "Well really I invited you over because I don't understand how you can not believe in God, and I think your life is worse for not believing, and I really wish you'd come back to God." This ended in me feeling total attacked and disrespected, him going on and on about how he is so enlightened in the way he understands God (even his own church apparently has it wrong), and me crying. It took me awhile to forgive him for that--not that I ever got an apology. Since then my grandfather still bugs me a bit, but that's pretty much it thank goodness.

I think these experiences color my views a little, because I think about how I would feel if my family was expecting me to participate in saying grace with them. Knowing how they've disrespected my beliefs over and over again in the past, I would feel very uncomfortable about it. (I think in one of his last posts the OP also said he has issues with his family for being non-religious. Maybe that's what spawned the whole thread!) I do think I might feel very different about the saying of grace depending on the context--I would probably feel much less uncomfortable if I weren't thinking about it in terms of my own family.

 

[auntpolly]

I love talking to others about their beliefs, as well. I just tend to draw the line at having to participate in their belief system.

But you and I are good -- we should have each other over for dinner. I promise to sit through your dinner time prayers without giving you any lip. And after dinner at my house we can talk about philosophical arguments against the existence of god and you can disagree all you want... it'll be fun.

OK! Seriously, I'm sorry I got posts confused.

Talking about what people believe is kind of a hobby of mine. I read everything I can get my hands on and just love anything by Joseph Campbell. You can tell me about what you think anytime.

 

[auntpolly]

I think these experiences color my views a little, because I think about how I would feel if my family was expecting me to participate in saying grace with them. Knowing how they've disrespected my beliefs over and over again in the past, I would feel very uncomfortable about it. (I think in one of his last posts the OP also said he has issues with his family for being non-religious. Maybe that's what spawned the whole thread!) I do think I might feel very different about the saying of grace depending on the context--I would probably feel much less uncomfortable if I weren't thinking about it in terms of my own family.

I can see that. I'm lucky how well my family accepted it when I converted to Catholicism. They never expected me to do anything with them at their church -- I wanted to because they were involved, but they were very respectful to me.

Family stuff can get weird though.

 

[Amity 3]

it's your house and your respects.

when I'm in a situation where I'm asked to drop my head or kneel and observe a prayer or a moment of silence, I stare straight ahead.

 

[orljustin]

Ok, but can we agree that it seems hypocritical of George to want people to respect his wish to not have prayer in his home, but then shouldn't he show the same consideration when in other people's home by repecting what they do?? If not, then the people that enter his home that would be "offended" by not being invited to pray, should just do it any way to make their beliefs known.

"to make their beliefs known". Known to who? Why do they feel they have to make their beliefs known? Can't they do their own thing silently, or put it off to later?

No, he isn't hypocritical. The guests are enacting an activity at their home, that George doesn't want to participate in. George is not requesting guests in his home take any action.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

"to make their beliefs known". Known to who? Why do they feel they have to make their beliefs known? Can't they do their own thing silently, or put it off to later?

No, he isn't hypocritical. The guests are enacting an activity at their home, that George doesn't want to participate in. George is not requesting guests in his home take any action.

George is the one that made the comment about wanting his beliefs known. Why should they have to put off "their own thing" in their home?? Yes, refraining from prayer is an action.

 

[Cool-Beans]

"to make their beliefs known". Known to who? Why do they feel they have to make their beliefs known? Can't they do their own thing silently, or put it off to later?

No, he isn't hypocritical. The guests are enacting an activity at their home, that George doesn't want to participate in. George is not requesting guests in his home take any action.

I don't think that asking people not to say grace in their own home is correct. And I don't think it is going to kill anyone to sit there for a minute and wait until it is over. George is obviously accustomed to doing this for 45 minutes or so a week, so one more minute will not cause him to spontaneously combust.

I once sat through 5 full minutes of prayer, including prayers that people like me join the rest of the group in not going to hell, and that the President at that time and the EPA also have their minds changed by God so that they don't go to hell, either. It was a loooong 5 minutes, in which "prayer" was used to make political statements and such, but I managed to sit there and not make a spectacle of myself. Surely George can sit through a wee bit of, "Thank you Jesus, for blessing us with this food."

 

[orljustin]

Sorry, you're misreading.

They are different situations.

George is a guest in someones home. Tonight's schedule:
say grace
eat dinner

Someone is visiting George. Tonight's schedule:
eat dinner

George would like to not participate in one of the activities while he is a guest in someone else's home. On George's schedule, there is only one activity. There is no "skip saying grace" that someone could choose to not participate in.

 

[Cool-Beans]

If you ask me (which you didn't, I'll just pipe up) demanding to say grace in someone else's home is rude. But so is getting up and walking out because your hosts are doing it.

So, George is tied with the guests on the rudeness issue.

Plus, these folks were invited to his house by his wife. Maybe George should have a serious talk with the wife about how strongly he feels, so that she stops inviting people who offend him.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Sorry, you're misreading.

They are different situations.

George is a guest in someones home. Tonight's schedule:
say grace
eat dinner

Someone is visiting George. Tonight's schedule:
eat dinner

George would like to not participate in one of the activities while he is a guest in someone else's home. On George's schedule, there is only one activity. There is no "skip saying grace" that someone could choose to not participate in.

On george's schedule is:

condemn anyone who dare make peep of a prayer (possibly including "if you pray, leave") in that sentiment.
Eat dinner.


Noone is arguing that there is etiquette on both sides---but why say anything at all.

I don't go to my hosts home and demand that prayer be said. But I would sure as heck be offended if I had to be "reminded" that prayer was unacceptable and if I did so then I will be asked to leave.

No I don't pray all the time--but how that doesn't strike anyone as rude and inconsiderate is beyond me.

And they do have these things called "moments of silence"---So as not to offend his guests or himself by being subject to those prayers....he could introduce that.

Hosting is about welcoming and not alienating...I am only going by the words used in the OP..maybe they were in jest..or maybe they are not.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

"to make their beliefs known". Known to who? Why do they feel they have to make their beliefs known? Can't they do their own thing silently, or put it off to later?

No, he isn't hypocritical. The guests are enacting an activity at their home, that George doesn't want to participate in. George is not requesting guests in his home take any action.

Part of it is custom. Why must people hide b/c others are afraid they would catch cooties?


Substitute Homosexuality.

"We know that you are gay--but please refrain from showing any signs of it in our home".

Guess what--if a thread were started on that--the OP would be taken down in a heartbeat for being homophobic.

What does this have to do with prayer you might wonder?

People constantly say--what I do in my bedroom is my business? But their sexuality is who they are. One part stays in the bedroom--but the rest is who they are and part of them. They don't just turn it off b/c it might offend someone.

Guests aren't asking that a mass or church service be conducted in the hosts home...they simply want to say a meal blessing. Why must they hide what is so part of them? Is the host going to "catch" salvation all of a sudden?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Wow! That was a lot of responses and I do appreciate all of them. I read each and every one and gave all of the input careful consideration. I think I got what I was looking for... and quite a bit more. I was actually looking for alternatives and, admittedly, some agreement to my point of view and I got both.

Let me clarify some points.

I don't consider myself a rude person, unless being honest equates to being rude, and I suppose there's often a fine line there. As a guest in someone else's home who did not know me well, I would, as suggested, just sit quietly while they do their thing, but not pretend I was participating. If they choose to join hands I would find some way enable the people on either side of me to join hands while, as discretely as possible backing up enough to allow them to do so. I try to feel out these situations ahead of time so it's not so awkward. If the host has a real problem with me being a heathen I will leave if that makes them more comfortable. I don't want to be where I'm not welcome.

I have had some problems in the past with a few friends and family members who know exactly how I feel and throw it in my face (now that's rude) and that is when I excuse myself in order to not be the focal point of their little show. To be honest, I didn't want to be there in the first place, but my wife would make the commitments... And, there have been a few who do go on and on and on as if they were giving a Sunday morning sermon.

In my own home, everyone invited knows how I feel and I think it's just plain arrogant for them to shove their little show in my face. I have no problem with them doing a silent prayer to themselves as long as they keep it to themselves. In fact, if I'm to believe there is a God and God knows all, I would have to say our private thoughts are the purest form of prayer.

For those who know me, they accept the fact that I give them the opportunity to do their thing while I go wash up. I don't expect them to eat al their peas if they don't like peas and I don't make an issue of it.

I'm reminded of a sermon at the church I play for where the pastor told everyone that when they finally get to heaven they will be surpised at who they see there... and who they don't. It's who you are on the inside that matters, not who you pretent to be.

Anyhow, I thank all of you for taking the time to offer your thoughts and suggestions. I'm not sure I have any real solutions for my problem, but I still have five days to think it over. Maybe I'll just ask that they do their thing privately and we can all enjoy a stress-free dinner.

Well, thanks again. I should get to bed since I have to be up early to play lead guitar at church. Go figure... but, it's strictly business you know...

As host--offer a moment of silence.

While some of what your friends/family do is rude--I think you are over the top in your offense. But that coudl be that they instigated it.

In your moment of silence--you can silently wish that everyone honors your request.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Part of it is custom. Why must people hide b/c others are afraid they would catch cooties?


Substitute Homosexuality.

"We know that you are gay--but please refrain from showing any signs of it in our home".

Guess what--if a thread were started on that--the OP would be taken down in a heartbeat for being homophobic.

What does this have to do with prayer you might wonder?

People constantly say--what I do in my bedroom is my business? But their sexuality is who they are. One part stays in the bedroom--but the rest is who they are and part of them. They don't just turn it off b/c it might offend someone.

Guests aren't asking that a mass or church service be conducted in the hosts home...they simply want to say a meal blessing. Why must they hide what is so part of them? Is the host going to "catch" salvation all of a sudden?

 

[aprilgail2]

.

But I have had numerous problems with my family about religion--not specifically about saying grace, but in general. I was rather young when I stopped wanting to go to church--maybe 14 or so, and had become a staunch atheist by around age 16. My whole family--even extended cousins, great uncles, etc--was the same religion, so it was understandably shocking and upsetting to them. At first they tended to be a little condescending/dismissive-- "Well you're just a kid. You'll change your mind when you get older." Then after a few more years they seemed to accept that I really was an atheist and this wasn't going to change any time soon, I think these experiences color my views a little, because I think about how I would feel if my family was expecting me to participate in saying grace with them. Knowing how they've disrespected my beliefs over and over again in the past, I would feel very uncomfortable about it. .

That is exactly how it was with me!! But I was a little younger. By around 7 or 8 I had had it with church and my parents were the kind that went every Sunday. I would pretend I was sleeping and hope they wouldn't wake me up to go every week. I would just sit there thinking how rank this was and get more and more bitter about being dragged there. To this day my mother bugs me to go to church and every Easter and Christmas eve turns into a giant fight because I won't go. She says "if you wanted to make me happy you would come to church at least for the holidays" if she wanted to make ME happy she would stop trying to make me go to church and accept what I am. It would be hypocritical for me to go sit in a church while in my head I am thinking "boy is this dumb" She has taken my daughter a few times which is fine with me, my daughter can make up her own mind on the subject when she chooses to.

 

[Freyja]

I do not say grace if I´m in other people homes who do say grace. I just sit there quietly and respect their religion. If someone else would want to say grace in my home, I would probably allow them but respectfully tell them that my family would not participate.