ROTR Boarding group issues resolution thoughts

[VandVsmama]

I guess this challenging problem of fairly distributing a very limited resource (rides on ROTR) to a huge group of highly motivated individuals could be a great tool for a political philosophy teacher to use for explaining different political systems.

(1.) Avoid any element of randomness but create a pure “first-come-first-serve” system by letting highly motivated individuals camp out overnight (and exerting the necessary cast member resources to prohibit line cutting & other ways of bypassing the rules), or award slots not based on random selection but some kind of measurable achievement, such as an essay writing context with the topic “Why I ought to be permitted to ride ROTR” (though the latter of course raises the problematic issue of having to find unbiased, incorruptible judges to grade those essays): MERITOCRACY—The decision of who gets to ride is purely based on merit, raising of course the age old question of privilege (since any way of measuring merit will suit people with certain strengths and weaknesses while disadvantaging others).

(2.) Auction each of the slots off to the highest bidder: CAPITALISM (This may be the easiest yet for most of us, myself included, most distasteful way of solving this problem of high interest colliding with limited access—I’m glad Disney isn’t going down that route, though their shareholders would probably love it.)

(3.) Raffle each slot out ahead of time (with people who do not have a computer being able to join the raffle by entering themselves through traditional “snail” mail): COMMUNISM. Each person would have exactly the same (very, small) chance (assuming the flow of information informing people of this process would reach every single interested person).

It seems to me that the current BG policies combine elements of all three of the above: it is MERITOCRATIC in that it favors those willing to do the research over those who just come and hope for the best; it is CAPITALIST in that your chances increase if you have a fancy, lightning fast phone and the ability to practice by staying more days in a row; it is COMMUNIST in that there is still an element of chance that applies evenly to all, the seemingly deserving and undeserving, the relatively rich and the relatively poor.

If you look at most dictionary definitions of the term “fair,” you will find that, if conducted with appropriate transparency, each of the further above described extremes can be considered “fair.” A “fair” process is merely one, which clearly communicates its rules and applies the same rules to all of the participants. The term “fairness” does by itself NOT imply a process that makes people happy or is considered morally or ethically superior to other selection methods.

I notice in many discussions about this that people seem to often say “fair,” when they actually mean “ethically” or “morally good” (I’m only considering caring, relatively selfless hypothetical people here, not those who simply define “fair” as “what serves me”).

Generations of philosophers have argued about what “morally good” means. Is it a process that maximizes the collective good (and how do you measure such “good”)? Is it a process that honors and celebrates certain abstract ideals (and which of those ideals ought to be celebrated)?

Those are great and hard to answer questions.

This is fascinating and I think you are spot on.

 

[midnight star]

I don’t personally know of any APs who are upset they can’t waltz in later in the day and ride...

Same. Quite a few of my friends with AP's haven't done it yet because they don't want to get there early. And they aren't mad about the fact that they can't ride if they come later in the day. They plan to do it one day, but aren't in a hurry to.

 

[EmJ]

Huh. I don’t find much of the conversation to center around that at all. I find most of it to center on the inability for infrequent visitors to ensure they’ll be able to ride, no matter how early they get there or how hard they try. The fact that no amount of desire, effort, or dedication can get you on the ride freaks people out.

I have friends from the Midwest who were planning to come out for Spring Break and spend two days at the parks, mainly on account of ROTR. They're reconsidering their trip entirely because of the chance that they’d come all this way and be unable to ride. I can’t say I blame them - it’s a lot to hang on your phone not freezing up.

I don’t personally know of any APs who are upset they can’t waltz in later in the day and ride...

I think I've actually heard both. Initially, there were several individuals who insisted that AP holders would "not stand" for the boarding group system, and the Disney would be forced to change it to be more AP-friendly. There are also complaints from some APs that they cannot ride because they cannot get to the parks until after work. At the same time, there are infrequent visitors even on this board who are mulling over whether to cancel/reschedule their vacations until the opportunity to ride is assured, and more than a few who left DL disappointed because they didn't get a turn.

Ultimately, I think you are exactly right that what really has people worked up is the lack of control. Even if a ride is never guaranteed, I think people would generally feel more comfortable if they perceived that they had some ability to control the outcome (even if that perception is ultimately illusory). In other words, if it were first-come-first-serve, then you could "control" your chance by getting in line at three in the morning. If it were standby-only, then you could "control" your chance by being willing to stand in line for 6 hours and limiting your fluids intake But with the boarding groups, you can do everything "right", get there early, update your phone, time 9:00 am to the second, etc., etc., and you're still basically at the mercy of "pings" and servers and carriers and other mysterious techie things. And the idea that you can't make your chance higher than someone else's is what I think is at the root of all the dissatisfaction, from APs and tourists alike.

 

[Susie63]

The moment I book non refundable flights from Canada it is out of my hands. It took me 3 trips to finally ride BTMRR I didn't know that the fervor about ROTR would actually command a thread with over 3000 posts. Disney always changes something with the schedule but I would never let that ruin my holiday. If I get to ride great....if I don't...oh well. My trip will still be great and I will still enjoy GE. I couldn't get ANY reservations for the fun restaurants in WDW and they were never going to talk walk ups. It didn't ruin my trip.
I think that Disney has come up with what they think works best for now, but like the park itself....things are always changing. 19 sleeps

 

[DLRExpert]

Didn't read every post but this is what I would do...

To help with the entrance area and to get people in the park before opening. Open the Boarding Pass option to people who have a park hopper ticket and scan through Disney California Adventure. Split the crowds up.

Next step is to open up a Reservation System for people who purchase the park tickets online. Offer a certain amount of reservations per day and boarding pass for everyone else. If space permits I would also offer a Stand By line, with reservations and boarding passes getting first dibs on riding the attraction. Similar to how Fastpass vs Standby currently works.

ME

 

[montreid]

Didn't read every post but this is what I would do...

To help with the entrance area and to get people in the park before opening. Open the Boarding Pass option to people who have a park hopper ticket and scan through Disney California Adventure. Split the crowds up.

Next step is to open up a Reservation System for people who purchase the park tickets online. Offer a certain amount of reservations per day and boarding pass for everyone else. If space permits I would also offer a Stand By line, with reservations and boarding passes getting first dibs on riding the attraction. Similar to how Fastpass vs Standby currently works.

ME

Agree with crowd control measures. You have additional gates to process people -- use them. That's the bottleneck. A lot of people flow outwards to DCA right after BG drop anyways, so just do it right the first time and load balance.

As for the capacity - it's limited. KIS. by introducing more splits of a limited resource, there will inherently be more complaints. Now one could take the NYC marathon approach with multiple prongs, but really takes a lot more effort to do that daily than a once a year event.

My take is that at least opening isn't at 6-7AM like it was and has been at WDW which commands a 430-530AM wakeup. A 800A and 900A start is much more palatable to most people for a reasonable effort.

IMHO, the crowd control issue is more important to get under control before spring break surge.

 

[Peachy0118]

Does everyone think the spring break surge will be worse than this 'newly opened' surge?

 

[Malcon10t]

Does everyone think the spring break surge will be worse than this 'newly opened' surge?

I don't think it will be worse, but similar. For many, it will be their first chance to try.

 

[SeaDis]

Didn't read every post but this is what I would do...

To help with the entrance area and to get people in the park before opening. Open the Boarding Pass option to people who have a park hopper ticket and scan through Disney California Adventure. Split the crowds up.

Next step is to open up a Reservation System for people who purchase the park tickets online. Offer a certain amount of reservations per day and boarding pass for everyone else. If space permits I would also offer a Stand By line, with reservations and boarding passes getting first dibs on riding the attraction. Similar to how Fastpass vs Standby currently works.

ME

ME, I know you will recall the early days of RSR. I'm a little surprised they don't go back to that model. It's worked for 7.5 years and RSR standby can still sport 3+ hour lines on the busiest days of the year.

In other words, make a choice at Rope Drop: Go standby or line up for the FP machines. And, sure, MM/EMH people get early access either to the ride (if they can open it in the morning) or the FP line; just like RSR has been all along. The machines were all staffed and CMs would fly through that line in the morning until all FP were distributed, first come.

Not everyone will get to ride.-- this won't change that. And some people without FP may choose not to ride based on length of Standby throughout the day.

I just think a (really) long standby line option can't be worse than the current experience; which is finding out you have no chance to ride due to lack of experience or a technical issue. Having seen several mornings on Youtube now, you can see the amazing difference: Locals and power visitors cheering wildly and countless other people looking around quietly and staring at their phones bewildered. "What just happened"?

Also I just gotta point out the makeup of the crowds: On video is seems to be overwhelmingly adults. Those of you there in person may have seen different, but that is what is coming through on video. Likely a factor of time of year, the overall Star Wars demo, and the sheer number of APs etc coming at rope drop right now. What happens as tourists/family levels increase into Presidents' week and Spring Break? Feels like a time bomb...

 

[Raech]

There is nothing wrong with how it is now. Those worried about it can wait and not go so soon, or understand that they may not get to ride it this trip. They have the same shot as everyone. I don't live in California. I am an AP across the country. What I don't want is to wait in a line for hours having to pee. Does no one remember the 6+ hr lines for Star Tours opening at Disneyland? No no no. And the videos on youTube are of Sat or Sunday not weekdays. APs have to work too. They can't just go M-F to the parks at open hoping to get a boarding pass.

 

[DLRExpert]

ME, I know you will recall the early days of RSR. I'm a little surprised they don't go back to that model. It's worked for 7.5 years and RSR standby can still sport 3+ hour lines on the busiest days of the year.

I agree they should go back to what they have done in the past.

My guess is they don't want people in long 2-4 hour lines and not in shops or buying food.

However, this thread is about Boarding Group resolutions.

 

[Malcon10t]

I agree they should go back to what they have done in the past.

My guess is they don't want people in long 2-4 hour lines and not in shops or buying food.

What they don't want is people standing in line half the day, and the ride going down, then going to City Hall and complaining and having to do Guest Recovery for thousands. This way, you show up, you know how to get a BG (they make announcements, they have managers all down Main St to help explain) and if you get a BG great, and you know if you are in a backup BG, you may not be riding and you aren't spending that time in a line. They learned from earlier mistakes. This route seems to be working well, even though you do have to be there at opening. Nothing is going to be perfect for everyone. This frees you up from standing in a 6 hour line.

 

[dieumeye]

I just think a (really) long standby line option can't be worse than the current experience;

I can assure you that a standby line would have been a worse experience for me both on the day I was able to ride and on the day I was not able to ride. As it is, neither day involved standing in a line even an hour long. Not standing in line is always going to be better than standing in line.

If I had to stand in a 1+ hour line to ride, that would be worse than the 15ish minutes I had to wait in line before getting to the preshow. Alternately, if I had to stand in a long standby line and then didn't get to ride at all, that definitely would have been a worse experience.

you can see the amazing difference: Locals and power visitors cheering wildly and countless other people looking around quietly and staring at their phones bewildered

There is no way to tell if someone is a local, day tripper, an AP, or from far away just from a video. There's no indication that BGs are only being had by so called power visitors. In fact, there are plenty of reports here that seem to show regulars have no advantage over anyone else.

There is more demand than ride capacity. Changing the system will not change that. Forcing people to stand in an hours long line won't add capacity to the ride. The same number of people will get to ride, and the same number of people will not get to ride. All a standby line does is add in an hours long wait to the system.

 

[Heather07438]

The fact that no amount of desire, effort, or dedication can get you on the ride freaks people out.

Planning extra attempts can gain an edge.

Let's say that it really is a coin flip right now and we have a 50/50 chance. On 2 attempts, we have 75% chance of riding at least once. On 3 attempts, we stand an 87.5% (or 7 in 8) chance at riding on at least once and a 12.5% (1in 8) chance of failure.

It's not even nearly that bad once you consider it's probably a good deal over 50% who try at ropedrop and succeed. It's frustrating to think there's no guarantee though, but then no part of a Disney day is ever 100% guaranteed.

 

[ckb_nc]

Disney is one of the premiere attraction operators in the world, and along with Cedar Fair operate on the US some incredible rides. I trust they took a hard look at what they expected would be an overwhelming demand and devised what they believed at the opening was a fair solution. AP, multi day, Disney MaxPass, or one day ticket - in theory we all have the same shot. It appears newer phones have an advantages but that is far outside of Disney’s control. We got BG both days, one on Verizon one on the Disney WiFi. We were hopeful to ride it but prepared to be disappointed. For standby go read about the first day Universal Florida that had posted 10 hour wait times first day before it broke down. Yes people willingly got in a line at around 9am ready to wait until 7 that night to ride. Disney wants zero part of that and given the known challenges with ride that was a wise choice. I rode opening day and the woman behind had a BG, and she designed the ride vehicles - talk about someone who should have gone to the front of the line. I watched her scan in with her group.

 

[Skyegirl1999]

Planning extra attempts can gain an edge.

Let's say that it really is a coin flip right now and we have a 50/50 chance. On 2 attempts, we have 75% chance of riding at least once. On 3 attempts, we stand an 87.5% (or 7 in 8) chance at riding on at least once and a 12.5% (1in 8) chance of failure.

It's not even nearly that bad once you consider it's probably a good deal over 50% who try at ropedrop and succeed. It's frustrating to think there's no guarantee though, but then no part of a Disney day is ever 100% guaranteed.

That’s definitely true... but two things there affect my “was going to make a trip out from the Midwest and spend two days at the parks” friends.

1. Originally, they were going to buy 1-park-per-day tickets. If they do attempt this, they’re going to upgrade to hoppers... but that’s still just two attempts, and ups the price... for something that’s still not a sure thing.

2. For sure no ride is ever guaranteed... but there’s a difference in visiting when something is just shut down or whatever vs the emotion of being locked out of a system and knowing that thousands are getting on... you’re just not one of them.

If they made a trip out for a new ride and that new ride was just broken and didn’t run for two days, they’d be sad, of course, but if they make a trip out and try and fail to score a BG for two days... that’s going to feel a LOT different.

Like @EmJ said, it’s about a sense of control...

For the record, I’m NOT complaining about BGs. I think the current system is basically fine. I do wish it was possible to distribute BGs “first come first served” so that if someone REALLY wanted to put some crazy effort in, they could get there at 5am or whatever and just know they were getting a BG. I understand why that’s logistically not possible, but I wish it was. To me, that would be the most “fair” in terms of giving people the ability to put in more effort for the opportunity to ride, without going to an insane standby line...

I also think releasing BGs twice a day could alleviate some issues (but would surely create others, so, who knows?)

 

[roctavia]

Certainly lots of people are going to be disappointed no matter how disney does this, since there are more people wanting to ride per day than can actually ride...

But having a shot at a boarding group on those once in a life time trips still seems like a better option to me than taking your family on a once in a lifetime trip to disney and spending 10 hours of your day standing in line for one ride... Unless you have zero interest in anything else Disneyland has to offer, and your whole family is in agreement... it sounds like something that my family and I would pass on, despite possibly never having the chance to ride again. So from that perspective the boarding groups are helpful.

As we've gone around and around with, there isn't going to be a way to do this that gets everyone on the ride who wants to, or a way to make it feel fair to everyone- even if you could come up with a perfect "fair" way to do it, it still won't seem fair to the people who don't get to ride.

Our trip isn't until May, so who knows how they will be running things by then, but I'd love a chance to ride this ride... but it's not the only thing we want to experience on this trip.

 

[Malcon10t]

I do wish it was possible to distribute BGs “first come first served” so that if someone REALLY wanted to put some crazy effort in, they could get there at 5am or whatever and just know they were getting a BG. I understand why that’s logistically not possible, but I wish it was. To me, that would be the most “fair” in terms of giving people the ability to put in more effort for the opportunity to ride, without going to an insane standby line...

I also think releasing BGs twice a day could alleviate some issues (but would surely create others, so, who knows?)

If it was a case of being there at 5am, Disney would probably say "Let's do it"... But we are talking about people lining up the night before. We are talking about people who arrive at 5am, not realizing people were lined up from the night before.

 

[Skyegirl1999]

If it was a case of being there at 5am, Disney would probably say "Let's do it"... But we are talking about people lining up the night before. We are talking about people who arrive at 5am, not realizing people were lined up from the night before.

I really don’t think that would happen long-term, though, not in the numbers to FILL BGs that early. It definitely would/did for opening day, and you’d probably have as many as a few thousand people out there early on some weekends (which they’re not equipped to deal with, obviously).

But if they did it that way now, you’d have a handful of camp outs, but there just aren’t that many people who are going to inconvenience themselves that much on a routine basis. I’m not saying nobody would be there earlier - but I’m saying you could show up at 5am and get a BG. Are 6-8,000 people going to get there before 5am day after day? Nah. I don’t even think 8,000 people were there when I got there at 5:30 on opening day. I mean, shoot, it appears that there weren’t 8,000 people in the park by 9am today!

Again, it’s not logistically possible... but it would be nice if it was.

 

[Elvis Glazier]

So... as an AP when I go to DW with the family I know they don't wake up so i will get up early every morning check into HS at 7AM. I get my BG and if it's an early one I stay if not I go back and sleep. Then I just come back when my BG is called. If I'm at another park I'll take off and come back.

Unless I'm at AK then I might not leave cuz the drive is a little more significant and then the BG just dies on the vine.

Being an AP has so many advantages. The biggest one is losing that sense of urgency. Do something, don't do something? It doesn't matter, you know you're going to be able to come back and do it again.

And with the DVC gold pass it's economical on day 14 at the park.