Riviera vs CCV

[havoc315]

I see where you are coming from, I guess it comes down to costs in that potential future. If Disney removes all benefit except trading between resorts, I still feel like that isn't a great incentive as you can already stay at a ton of resorts paying with cash, more resorts than you can if you are part of DVC even! A big draw of DVC is the potential to stay at nicer accommodations for a fairly static cost over a long period of time, plus you get access to reduced AP pricing! In your comment earlier, the future is a world where AP pricing can be dropped, so all you have left to entice people is access to resorts they can already stay at for (definitely high) rack rates, or just keep going to CB or AoA or whatever other far less expensive resort.

I just can't get past that the future you outlined doesn't seem sustainable, there is just too much of a "death by a thousand cuts" feel to it. People around here are already wary of RIV due to resale restrictions, you paint a picture of people willingly buying direct when those resale restrictions are at every resort, no more AP discount, no more MM, and ever increasing dues. Sure they will still sell DVC to some extent, but no way it retains its popularity, especially when the biggest supporters like this and other boards are filled with members or former members telling everyone to stay far away.

The only way I see that world working is if they add other benefits, like an unlimited or at least very generous park hopper, or some other big grab that really wouldn't cost Disney much but be super valuable to DVC Direct members.

But again, I know you have way more experience with all this than I do. My view just comes from my personal feelings of it. Already have trouble seeing a strong value proposition in DVC although I know it's there, if they completely dump the other benefits I can't see how they get new members at the current rate. Guess we will see!

I've heard a million times, "people will never accept that change!" -- Not just DVC. Within a Disney context, heard it about every change to fastpass, every change to the finding plan, heard it about every significant price increase. In the end, after some initial friction, most of those changes become accepted.

Let's assume that the resort-trading-ability becomes the only direct immediate benefit of booking direct. You still have the cost-savings inherent in DVC.
So why buy DVC instead of just paying cash rooms at the hotel of your choice? Even without an AP discount, the answer would be the same in 2030 or 2040 as the answer is in 2020 -- To save money in the long term.
In this future -- You can buy direct, which allows you to save money while booking 15+ resorts. Or you can buy resale, save even more money, but at single resort.
Getting rid of AP discounts or moonlight magic isn't going to change that equation all that much in the long term.

 

[DeeBee3]

We did a TON of research and math work before buying direct. We are at CC. It is a beautiful resort and the 11 months is a big incentive there. Since you are a family of 5, I assume you would be using a 1-bedroom vs a studio. Studios are VERY hard to get at 7 months in popular times. 1 bedrooms are much easier to book since there are more of them. I have no experience with Riviera but I do hope to stay there in the future. It does have a nice plus with the Skyliner. However, my family LOVES the boat from Wilderness Lodge to MK or Contemporary. Very convenient.

I emphasize again the amount of money research we did - made a spreadsheet to work out how many days we plan to go each year or if it's every other year. That helped us figure out how many points we truly needed. You can find all the point charts online.

If we add on points in the future, we would probably go resale, but I still like that we bought direct initially.

 

[sethschroeder]

Since you are a family of 5, I assume you would be using a 1-bedroom vs a studio. Studios are VERY hard to get at 7 months in popular times. 1 bedrooms are much easier to book since there are more of them.

CCV only sleeps 4 in the Studio and 1 Bedroom. The only option at CCV is 2BR if you have 5+ people. Riviera however allows 5 in the Studio/1BR/2BR.

 

[MICKIMINI]

We bought in 1996 at OKW and bought and sold many times since. As life changes, we aren't hesitant to sell our DVC and buy new resorts that better fit us. We bought when our son was 8 and we stayed in all sized villas from a studio to 3 BR. When we bought initially, we didn't have a choice on UY or resale. We went through high school, undergrad and grad school with couples trips and now our son and DIL join us for F & W and we gift them pretty much whatever they want. We're now planning for retirement trips and plan to spend January at WDW soon. We have six contracts.

Resale is the way to go IMO, however if you need those perks (if they ever come back) buy 125 so you get the blue card. Smaller contracts are the way to go IMO (100 or less) as they are easy to flip as your tastes change. Adding on at your home resort, or adding another resort when an opportunity presents itself will give you more options. Don't let your guide scare you out of resale. I've been doing this for 25 years...nothing scary here.

Buy the resort you love, buy enough points plus a buffer, plan to add on, enjoy the ride!

 

[prs_14]

If you are likely doing 2BRs with your family of five, I would do 300 points direct at CCV. The point chart is great and the direct purchase means you get to use the full 300 points in every DVC resort (new and old) until the end of your contract.

If you are gunning instead for Studios or 1BRs, I would still do all 300 points direct, but I would consider a resort where the Studios and 1BRs sleep five people. CCV only sleeps four in its Studios and 1BRs.

 

[sethschroeder]

If you are likely doing 2BRs with your family of five, I would do 300 points direct at CCV. The point chart is great and the direct purchase means you get to use the full 300 points in every DVC resort (new and old) until the end of your contract.

If you are gunning instead for Studios or 1BRs, I would still do all 300 points direct, but I would consider a resort where the Studios and 1BRs sleep five people. CCV only sleeps four in its Studios and 1BRs.

Riviera will give them more flexibility with up to 3 sleeping surfaces in the 2nd bedroom so no kid has to be in the living room area if they don't want to be. It will also give them 6 vs 4 sleeping surfaces in general allowing for easier ability for the kids to bring along friends.

There is about a 12-14% difference in points for CCV vs RIV but you also are getting 16% more space at RIV and more flexibility in sleeping surfaces. You also have more flexibility to book a Studio or 1BR at times to save further points as well. Based on current incentives you could purchase 9% more points at RIV for the same cost but then would have long term higher MFs based on needing to pay for the extra points in addition to higher MFs at RIV.

So while yes RIV is going to be a little more expensive on points it is a upgrade to the room itself. As far as the resort, transportation, and park its next to each person would have to decide what is important to them.

 

[prs_14]

Riviera will give them more flexibility with up to 3 sleeping surfaces in the 2nd bedroom so no kid has to be in the living room area if they don't want to be. It will also give them 6 vs 4 sleeping surfaces in general allowing for easier ability for the kids to bring along friends.

There is about a 12-14% difference in points for CCV vs RIV but you also are getting 16% more space at RIV and more flexibility in sleeping surfaces. You also have more flexibility to book a Studio or 1BR at times to save further points as well. Based on current incentives you could purchase 9% more points at RIV for the same cost but then would have long term higher MFs based on needing to pay for the extra points in addition to higher MFs at RIV.

So while yes RIV is going to be a little more expensive on points it is a upgrade to the room itself. As far as the resort, transportation, and park its next to each person would have to decide what is important to them.

All good points. Agree that the 3 sleeping surfaces and the room size is better at RR. But if you are a family of five, a 2BR is going to be pretty comfortable regardless. But you are right, the equation changes if you plan on bringing more than the family of five, if you want flexibility to book studios or 1BRs instead of 2BRs (as I mentioned above), etc.

Then if it really is mostly a 2BR for five people, it comes down to whether, to your point, you want to pay a few more points for that extra room/flexibility.

 

[Pyotr]

CCV only sleeps 4 in the Studio and 1 Bedroom. The only option at CCV is 2BR if you have 5+ people. Riviera however allows 5 in the Studio/1BR/2BR.

Another thing to consider is that the 2 bedrooms at CC are less points than a preferred 1 bedroom at Riviera. So if the OP was planning on staying in 2 bedrooms, I think CC is the better fit.

Studios are a pain at CC during the fall/Christmas season. I own there and it’s a challenge. If the plan is to stay mostly in a studio, I don’t know if I could recommend CC over Riviera.

 

[sethschroeder]

Another thing to consider is that the 2 bedrooms at CC are less points than a preferred 1 bedroom at Riviera. So if the OP was planning on staying in 2 bedrooms, I think CC is the better fit.

Studios are a pain at CC during the fall/Christmas season. I own there and it’s a challenge. If the plan is to stay mostly in a studio, I don’t know if I could recommend CC over Riviera.

Standard view 1BR is likely to be fairly easy to get at 11 months out. That could always end up being not true but I would suspect it will be plus 1BR isn't a huge challenge most of the year at other resorts that would also sleep 5 as a backup (outside of the early December timeline).

Plus "worst case" they could also even book at Studio (since it sleeps 5 and is the 2nd largest Studio at WDW) to save a bunch of points where in October for instance a RIV Studio would be 123/155 points while a CCV 2BR would be 299 points.

Resort	Studio	1BR	2BR
CCV	338 (12)	675 (11)	1051 (11)
RIV	423 (2)	813 (3)	1246 (2)

2BR is going to be pretty comfortable regardless.

Oh for sure. I just bring it up as its just a difference between having all the kids sleeping in a room or 1 of the kids sleeping in the main living space. Especially if you have people who get up and go to bed at various hours. So you are getting more space and a better layout (IMO). For our family with 2 kids that's the difference between why we would book at 1BR vs 2BR (kids in the living area or not).

 

[Lva5]

In previous incentive periods, CCV and RIV had the same incentives and could be combined to reach a higher discount level.

The current incentives are different right now. You get more off per point at CCV. I don't think they can be combined. Buying both now would only get the 150 pt incentive at each.

The current incentives expire on 12/04. You can ask your guide to set everything up now & give a deposit. That will give you a 10 day recission period to research a little more about full direct, combining direct & resale or going full resale. You can cancel within the 10 days with no penalty.

You can ask them to split your purchase into two 150 pt contracts. That way you can decide if you want to drop one or keep both. People on the board recommend buying in multiple smaller contracts because they're easier to sell and usually get more per point.

I believe the current RIV incentives include them covering closing costs.

What makes you think the incentives have to be the same to be combined? I see no reason for that, and certainly wouldn’t be telling prospective buyers that’s the case unless you’re sure.

With two different resorts the contracts will be split regardless...

 

[sethschroeder]

What makes you think the incentives have to be the same to be combined? I see no reason for that, and certainly wouldn’t be telling prospective buyers that’s the case unless you’re sure.

With two different resorts the contracts will be split regardless...

Its been reported by others during previous incentives. Example being able to combine CCV/AUL/RIV but not the sold out resorts since they were not on the same pricing structure.

People should always ask though because even if the rule is not to do something they might always make an exception.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/e...0-expanded-list.3805288/page-25#post-62297343

 

[Lva5]

Its been reported by others during previous incentives. Example being able to combine CCV/AUL/RIV but not the sold out resorts since they were not on the same pricing structure.

People should always ask though because even if the rule is not to do something they might always make an exception.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/e...0-expanded-list.3805288/page-25#post-62297343

Yeah I can see them saying that, but I don’t see a reason it wouldn’t be negotiable.

People were reporting certain use years weren’t being sold across the board when I bought. My guide told me they weren’t offering the UY I wanted at that time.. I said if I’m going to spend this kind of money I don’t see why I shouldn’t get exactly what I want, and why I wanted that UY... and a few minutes later it was available.

 

[sethschroeder]

Yeah I can see them saying that, but I don’t see a reason it wouldn’t be negotiable.

People were reporting certain use years weren’t being sold across the board when I bought. My guide told me they weren’t offering the UY I wanted at that time.. I said if I’m going to spend this kind of money I don’t see why I shouldn’t get exactly what I want, and why I wanted that UY... and a few minutes later it was available.

Its why you ask. That being said the discount are applied as a credit equally across the contracts. So its possible that they legally are unable to actually offer the discounting since they possibly would need to divide out the total discount and thus it would make the discount on OKW more significant than it should be as an example.

Not sure how its accounted for with DVC. I do deal with large contracts in a different industry and there is various legality issues regarding how discounts and credits can be applied or offered on contracts.

 

[DSLRuser]

buy all your points direct for wherever you can get the best deal. home resort doesnt matter as much as people will tell you. 7 trips in 3 years on points and we only booked at our home resort 1 time. at any time of the year, there is alway something open somewhere up to 3 months out. and since you sound like 1 or 2 bdrm users, you will find it easy to get a room at up to 2 months.

booking that late wiil not allow you to be picky...but there will be rooms.

 

[zavandor]

Are you considering only RIV and CCV because they are your two favorite resorts or because they are the two resorts DVC is actively selling?
Even if you want to buy direct, almost all resorts can be purchased, DVC still sells them, they just don't adventize it much. If you have a favorite resort you can ask your guide if they have points available or if there is a waiting list.
Buying resale you might be able to save a lot of money or buy more points, that would allow you to book larger rooms or more nights.

 

[masupo]

What makes you think the incentives have to be the same to be combined? I see no reason for that, and certainly wouldn’t be telling prospective buyers that’s the case unless you’re sure.

With two different resorts the contracts will be split regardless...

Its been reported by others during previous incentives. Example being able to combine CCV/AUL/RIV but not the sold out resorts since they were not on the same pricing structure.

People should always ask though because even if the rule is not to do something they might always make an exception.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/e...0-expanded-list.3805288/page-25#post-62297343

Yeah I can see them saying that, but I don’t see a reason it wouldn’t be negotiable.

People were reporting certain use years weren’t being sold across the board when I bought. My guide told me they weren’t offering the UY I wanted at that time.. I said if I’m going to spend this kind of money I don’t see why I shouldn’t get exactly what I want, and why I wanted that UY... and a few minutes later it was available.

And I certainly wouldn't tell people they can always combine discounts, because of exactly the reason @sethschroeder mentions. The incentive threads have great info that everyone should check out.

During my constant reading of the incentive threads when I was getting ready to purchase, I saw multiple posts regarding attempts to combine different incentives that were denied. The previous pricing grouped CCV/AUL/RIV together, therefore you could combine those points for the higher discount.

They were offering rare discounts on sold out resorts as well. People attempted to combine a purchase of 150 at RIV and 150 at AKL (for example) to reach the 300 pt incentive level and were told no.

The current incentives group CCV/AUL together and RIV has its own separate pricing. Therefore I expect DVC to follow the same logic in not combining discounts.

Everyone should definitely ask their guide and try to negotiate! I negotiated for my desired UY as well. I'll be pleasantly surprised if these discounts can be combined. I just don't want anyone to set their sights on a combined purchase, only to be disappointed if it can't happen.

 

[RoseGold]

Our guide spent a lot of time emphasizing the ability to sell your contract, and if that market is almost dead because every resort is that resort only (this is in 20+ years of course), that seems like a much harder selling point to anyone that does even a little research into what that market looks like.

This is so dishonest. Even SSR is 2057. That has a ton of life left on it.

 

[RoseGold]

-Direct buyers can always use points in any DVC property. That's because they are members of the DVC club. And it would be in everyone's best interest to continue placing all new properties into the existing DVC club.

But see, it doesn't say this at all. There's no reason DVC+ or DVC Star Wars or DVC Vegas Land or whatever has to play nicely with any of these legacy contracts, O14 or RIV/DL. The legacy contracts can't make future resorts do anything. RIV has shown they are not tied to the old product or rules and are willing to change them as required to make more money. It's not in "everyone's interest" to place properties in the existing club if they can make more money leaving the SSR cheapskates behind, or at least gouge the legacy buyers if they want OMG DVC+.

There's no reason Reflections couldn't be built by a completely new entity, making completely new rules and special Reflections points.

 

[havoc315]

Riviera will give them more flexibility with up to 3 sleeping surfaces in the 2nd bedroom so no kid has to be in the living room area if they don't want to be. It will also give them 6 vs 4 sleeping surfaces in general allowing for easier ability for the kids to bring along friends.

There is about a 12-14% difference in points for CCV vs RIV but you also are getting 16% more space at RIV and more flexibility in sleeping surfaces. You also have more flexibility to book a Studio or 1BR at times to save further points as well. Based on current incentives you could purchase 9% more points at RIV for the same cost but then would have long term higher MFs based on needing to pay for the extra points in addition to higher MFs at RIV.

So while yes RIV is going to be a little more expensive on points it is a upgrade to the room itself. As far as the resort, transportation, and park its next to each person would have to decide what is important to them.

I wouldn't count on dues being significantly higher at Riviera in the long term., on a per point basis. The main difference being you need to either buy a few more points at the Riviera to get the same number of days, or your points will simply go a bit further at CCV.

With some of my free time, I did a far too detailed analysis:
Of the WDW DVC Properties: Riviera has the 3rd most expensive point chart. (Behind Poly and GFV). CCV is right in the middle, 6th out of 11. Similar point chart to BLT, BRV, and BCV. Where CCV suffers: By my ranking of room sizes (not counting the Cabins), they are the smallest units on property. 338 SF make them the smallest regular studios. 675sf are the smallest 1 bedrooms on property. 1051sf are the smallest 2 bedrooms on property. Ironically, their Grand Villas are bigger than average.

So, the more expensive point chart for RIV is consistent with significantly larger rooms.
The real questions for anyone deciding between the two resorts:
1 -- Would you rather stay at a MK resort, but not on the monorail, or prefer a skyliner resort in the Epcot area?
2 -- Willing to pay a little more for more space, or prefer to save some money with less space?

 

[havoc315]

But see, it doesn't say this at all. There's no reason DVC+ or DVC Star Wars or DVC Vegas Land or whatever has to play nicely with any of these legacy contracts, O14 or RIV/DL. The legacy contracts can't make future resorts do anything. RIV has shown they are not tied to the old product or rules and are willing to change them as required to make more money. It's not in "everyone's interest" to place properties in the existing club if they can make more money leaving the SSR cheapskates behind, or at least gouge the legacy buyers if they want OMG DVC+.

There's no reason Reflections couldn't be built by a completely new entity, making completely new rules.

There are two problems with that though, and reasons direct owners will likely always have 7 month access to all future and past resorts:

1 -- Such rights are heavily implied when they sell the contracts, and even suggested by the contract language. A change would open them up to massive lawsuits that they could win or lose.
2 -- And this is the big one -- It's in their best interest to continue giving direct buyers cross-access into eternity. Why?? Because it's a huge selling point. They open DVC Vegas -- Yes, they could cut it off, keep it off DVC. But then direct buyers at DVC Vegas could only stay at DVC Vegas. That would really hamper direct sales. Disney would want to tell buyers, "Buy at DVC Vegas, and you can use your points at our other 15 worldwide DVC properties." And point trading can't just go in 1 direction -- If DVC Vegas owners get to use the older resorts, then direct owners of the older resorts would have the ability to trade into DVC Vegas.

Why would Disney get rid of the biggest selling point of membership? It would only hurt their sales. It doesn't increase their profits in any way.