Riviera vs CCV

[RoseGold]

"Buy at DVC Vegas, and you can use your points at our other 15 worldwide DVC properties." And point trading can't just go in 1 direction -- If DVC Vegas owners get to use the older resorts, then direct owners of the older resorts would have the ability to trade into DVC Vegas.

RIV has shown they have no problem cutting off legacy owners to new stuff, while allowing new stuff owners to trade in one way. But, sure go both ways. No reason it can't be like the other trash ways to use your points that are terrible values, like cruises. Playing doesn't mean playing nicely.

Sure, trade into the DVC Vegas system, the transfer is 5:1, or a 15% upcharge! Have at it -- go buy those DVC Vegas points! And you can trade your DVC Vegas points out to DVC points for only 10% surcharge when you convert over 1,000 Vegas Points at one time. Of course, resale buyers can only stay at Vegas Tower 1 with Vegas Points, and White Card points can never be used for Vegas Points.

For Disney, terrible value means more money, absolutely the direction they appear to be headed.

 

[sethschroeder]

DVC+ or DVC Star Wars or DVC Vegas Land

There is no reason for them to be excluded because its a selling point to people buying those resorts. If you buy at Vegas Land you might always stay there and you can easily book your trip since you have home resort advantage. At the same time you can choose to easily book at WDW or DL as well is the story.

Its the same reason why Timeshares all want to group together to allow trading because during the sales process your goal as a sales person is to disarm any "issue" with them buying. Flexibility to stay other places that also have a large premium in WDW allow you disarm the notion of being "locked in" along with things like bankings, booking different times, and booking different room types.

I wouldn't count on dues being significantly higher at Riviera in the long term., on a per point basis.

Oh I think they will have another year or two of drawing closer to the rest of the resorts. I more pointed it out as to avoid going in to a longer discussion on dues, expectations, and possibilities. Hopefully people buying with questions on dues will check out the Riviera thread or some of the others threads out there.

RIV has shown they have no problem cutting off legacy owners to new stuff

Well legacy owners are not losing anything on new resale purchasers. Also the reason they cut off access to new resale buyers is exactly why they will keep it around for direct purchases. They are trying to disincentivize buying resale. They know switching between resorts its a big benefit and are banking on people buying direct and paying more for that ability.

Sure, trade into the DVC Vegas system, the transfer is 5:1, or a 15% upcharge!

Sure they possibly could do that. They can do that with the current resorts as well possibly. In the end its just another reason to buy where you want to stay and something to know that possibly could change.

Of course, resale buyers can only stay at Vegas Tower 1 with Vegas Points, and White Card points can never be used for Vegas Points.

Those would be clearly defined in the contract and you would know about that prior to purchasing. They continually have shown to grandfather everyone in to changes.

You seem to be outlining your thoughts applying specifically to new resale buyers which at this point will not have access to any new resort again. None of that impacts direct buyers.

 

[havoc315]

RIV has shown they have no problem cutting off legacy owners to new stuff, while allowing new stuff owners to trade in one way. But, sure go both ways. No reason it can't be like the other trash ways to use your points that are terrible values, like cruises. Playing doesn't mean playing nicely.

Huh? Riviera did not cut off any legacy direct owners. Direct owners have full 7-months rights at Riviera. Now, if DVC Vegas is a terrible value, then it would be a terrible value for DVC Vegas buyers and for legacy owners. Again, it will cut both ways. And of course if it's a horrible value for direct buyers of DVC Vegas -- $1,000 per point and 500 points per night for a tiny studio!! Then they won't sell much of it.

Sure, trade into the DVC Vegas system, the transfer is 5:1, or a 15% upcharge! Have at it -- go buy those DVC Vegas points! And you can trade your DVC Vegas points out to DVC points for only 10% surcharge when you convert over 1,000 Vegas Points at one time. Of course, resale buyers can only stay at Vegas Tower 1 with Vegas Points, and White Card points can never be used for Vegas Points.

For Disney, terrible value means more money, absolutely the direction they appear to be headed.

They legally can't do what you suggest. Your contract spells out the terms of the DVC Club. The only way they could do that is if DVC Vegas isn't part of the DVC Club. But again, they wouldn't do that because it would destroy the value of the resort.

Put another way, it simply wouldn't be DVC Vegas. It would be Disney ConDotel Vegas, not DVC. But if it's DVC, then it will trade in and out of past and future resorts. All direct buyers will get the same benefits to trade at 7 months.
Now, of course, they can build a resort in Vegas and simply not make it part of DVC. Just like the hotels in Hong Kong and Tokyo and Paris. But if it's part of DVC, then it will have to trade in and out just like all the other DVCs.

What they did with the Riviera is basically make the DVC Club membership non-transferable. You can sell your home resort membership, but you can't sell your DVC Club membership. And for legacy owners, their resale will be limited DVC Club membership, limited to older resorts. But direct purchasers will always continue to get full DVC Club membership. Changing that would create lawsuits AND would make it harder for Disney to sell DVC.

 

[sethschroeder]

They legally can't do what you suggest. Your contract spells out the terms of the DVC Club. The only way they could do that is if DVC Vegas isn't part of the DVC Club. But again, they wouldn't do that because it would destroy the value of the resort.

I think I may have read this wrong. I am on the same page they wouldn't be able to cut off direct buyers from having access but give Vegas owners access to WDW resorts.

=======================
Original Comment
So there is information out there in documentation from DVC regarding the possibility to upcharge on the trade-in to a resort. Not sure where I just posted it but I had outlined it as a possibility. You would have to go through that though to really dig in to the details.

It would be across the board though likely where its every resorts gets charge for charging in to a specific resort. I think its one of those things though that DVC would have a hard time putting in to action and not hurting their direct sales product. Reselling is whatever but a primary aspect of them selling is direct is laying out all the Disney resorts you can stay at. Who knows though.

 

[havoc315]

Sure they possibly could do that. They can do that with the current resorts as well possibly. In the end its just another reason to buy where you want to stay and something to know that possibly could change.

They really can't do a 5:1 trade or anything like that. The contracts specify how the DVC Club membership works. To change how the trades work, it simply wouldn't be a DVC.
They can certainly build a non-DVC property -- just like the hotels in Hong Kong, Paris, Tokyo, etc. And then they can offer any trade formula they want. But it wouldn't be DVC.
(ConDotels are a newer trend, evolution beyond timeshares... maybe Disney does ConDotels at some point, and those would not be DVC. In a ConDotel, you buy an actual unit, not points towards a unit. You are the 100% owner of your unit. But you make Disney the manager of the unit for 50 or 51 weeks per year, they rent it out for you, and you split the profits of the rental with Disney. But clearly, this is nothing like DVC. You'd be buying a 1 bedroom at Riviera for about $2-3 million, renting it to guests for $6,000 per week, Disney would keep $1000, you'd get the other $5,000...turning a theoretical profit eventually, and enjoying the unit for yourself 1-2 weeks per year).

 

[havoc315]

I think I may have read this wrong. I am on the same page they wouldn't be able to cut off direct buyers from having access but give Vegas owners access to WDW resorts.

=======================
Original Comment
So there is information out there in documentation from DVC regarding the possibility to upcharge on the trade-in to a resort. Not sure where I just posted it but I had outlined it as a possibility. You would have to go through that though to really dig in to the details.

It would be across the board though likely where its every resorts gets charge for charging in to a specific resort. I think its one of those things though that DVC would have a hard time putting in to action and not hurting their direct sales product. Reselling is whatever but a primary aspect of them selling is direct is laying out all the Disney resorts you can stay at. Who knows though.

Correct. It's either in the club -- in which case trades have to go in both directions.
Or it's out of the club. And if it's out of the club, then it's not DVC at all. It's just a Disney Inc. Vegas Timeshare. With no rights for any other resorts.

 

[sethschroeder]

They really can't do a 5:1 trade or anything like that. The contracts specify how the DVC Club membership works. To change how the trades work, it simply wouldn't be a DVC.

So the language is out there where they can actually from the sounds of it although maybe 5:1 is excessive and not allowed.

All point charts are outlined as "Home Resort Vacation Points Chart". When you go to book a resort though you trade in your "Home Resort Vacation Points" for "DVC Vacation Points" which allow you to book at 7 months (which this timing can also change). There is no requirement it would seem to match "Home Resorts Vacation Point Charts" with "DVC Vacation Point Charts".

Again I can't verify this is absolutely true but have read it a few times and seems like it doesn't get refuted when brought up so I treat it as a possibility to be aware of.

You can reference this as we were just talking about it.
https://www.disboards.com/threads/question-on-direct-vs-resale.3819050/page-2#post-62504749

This isn’t a provision in the deeds, it’s in the rules that govern operations of BVTC (Buena Vista Trading Company), which is the entity that we DVC owners actually use without realizing it when we trade out of our home resort and into a non-home DVC resort. I think @drusba might know which document - I don’t, sorry. And I don’t think they’d “discount” resorts, that was @sethschroeder ’s idea! But they could make it more expensive for a DVC owner to trade into VGF, for instance, to decrease the 7-month competition for non-home bookings there. Just another way to manipulate demand vs. supply at the 7-month window.

 

[havoc315]

So the language is out there where they can actually from the sounds of it although maybe 5:1 is excessive and not allowed.

All point charts are outlined as "Home Resort Vacation Points Chart". When you go to book a resort though you trade in your "Home Resort Vacation Points" for "DVC Vacation Points" which allow you to book at 7 months (which this timing can also change). There is no requirement it would seem to match "Home Resorts Vacation Point Charts" with "DVC Vacation Point Charts".

Again I can't verify this is absolutely true but have read it a few times and seems like it doesn't get refuted when brought up so I treat it as a possibility to be aware of.

You can reference this as we were just talking about it.
https://www.disboards.com/threads/question-on-direct-vs-resale.3819050/page-2#post-62504749

Critical language from the current (Riviera) contract:

Your deed is represented by an annual
allotment of Vacation Points which are to be used to reserve accommodations.

All reservations are subject to availability and booked on a first-come, first-served basis. The Home Resort priority booking window applies to all
Disney Vacation Club® (“DVC”) Resort accommodations.

From time to time, the number of Vacation Points required to reserve a specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change. This
“reallocation” occurs for various reasons, such as a change in the pattern of Member usage. [NOTE... unlike older property contracts, no mention of square footage. As we have discussed in another thread, seems they could quite easily reallocate the point chart at Riviera to better reflect supply/demand of unit types]

DVD has reserved the right to prohibit or limit persons who do not purchase an Ownership Interest directly from DVD from participating in other
aspects of Club membership or benefits, including prohibiting or limiting access to other DVC Resorts. Such prohibitions, restrictions,
limitations, or changes may adversely affect your ability to resell your Ownership Interest or at a value that you might seek

Club membership, as it is comprised from time to time, may not be partitioned,
hypothecated, bought, sold, exchanged, rented, or otherwise transferred separately from each Ownership Interest. Provided that the
Owner complies with all restrictions on the transfer, if an Owner transfer the Owner’s Ownership Interest the Owner will cease to be a
member of the Club unless the transferor owns another Ownership Interest.

The services provided through the Club presently include, among other things, the operation of a central reservation system
consisting of the “Home Resort Reservation Component” and the “DVC Reservation Component.” The “Home Resort Reservation
Component” is the component of the Club central reservation system for the Condominium through which Vacation Homes at the
Condominium may be reserved using Home Resort Vacation Points pursuant to the priorities, restrictions, and limitations established
by DVCM, as set forth in the Condominium Documents and the Home Resort Rules and Regulations for the Condominium. The DVC
Reservation Component is the exchange component of the Club central reservation system through which Vacation Homes in the
Condominium and any other resort that is associated with the DVC Reservation Component (“DVC Resorts”) may be reserved by
eligible Owners using DVC Vacation Points (as defined in paragraph 6)

The Vacation Point System. For purposes of administrative convenience only and for no other purpose, PURCHASER’s
Ownership Interest shall be symbolized as the number of “Home Resort Vacation Points” set forth in paragraph 2. A Home Resort
Vacation Point is a unit of use management designed for use in conjunction with the Home Resort Reservation Component. Home
Resort Vacation Points are merely reflective of PURCHASER’s Ownership Interest, and these Home Resort Vacation Points may not
be hypothecated, bought, sold, exchanged, rented, or otherwise transferred separate and apart from PURCHASER’s Ownership
Interest. Owners will be permitted to use their Home Resort Vacation Points each Use Year to make a reservation at their Home Resort
or participate in the DVC Reservation Component by converting all or a portion of their Home Resort Vacation Points as “DVC
Vacation Points” for the purpose of requesting a reservation at other DVC Resorts through the DVC Reservation Component

DVD reserves the right to add additional DVC Resorts which may have
different reservation rules, benefits, or features than this Condominium or existing DVC Resorts and which may adversely
affect, restrict, or prohibit Owners in the Condominium or members in the Club at other DVC Resorts from making
reservations at, or accessing the benefits and features of, such additional DVC Resort. Do not purchase an interest in a DVC
Resort in reliance upon the addition of new resorts or component sites or in reliance on the ability to make unrestricted
reservations at, or having access to the benefits and features of, such new resorts or component sites.


So this last paragraph is critical -- It does give Disney the right to build "additional DVC resorts" with entirely different restrictions. But those restrictions would have to work in both directions. They couldn't let DVC Vegas owners trade into legacy DVC at a 1:1 ratio, while requiring legacy owners to trade into DVC Vegas at a 5:1 ratio.
What types of benefits, features, restrictions would they realistically do at this DVC Vegas?
They could have a rooftop pool that is exclusively for DVC Vegas owners (just like the TOTW Lounge is sometimes restricted).. They could create a 13-month home booking window, certainly. They could change the housekeeping policies for DVC Vegas. They could introduce perks that aren't available at other DVC Properties.

But here is the key -- The "DVC Resort Component" would have to stay the same across properties.

 

[sethschroeder]

They couldn't let DVC Vegas owners trade into legacy DVC at a 1:1 ratio, while requiring legacy owners to trade into DVC Vegas at a 5:1 ratio.

Everyone trades in to the "DVC Vacation Points" at 1:1 but then when you go to reserve another resort there doesn't seem to be a mention that the "Home Resort Point Charts" need to be 1:1 to "DVC Vacation Point Charts".

So the "Home Resort Point Charts" for VGF as example might have a Studio at 20 point/night while the "DVC Vacation Point Charts" for VGF have it as 22 point/night.

I am not seeing anything in what you outlined that states that can not be the case.

 

[havoc315]

Everyone trades in to the "DVC Vacation Points" at 1:1 but then when you go to reserve another resort there doesn't seem to be a mention that the "Home Resort Point Charts" need to be 1:1 to "DVC Vacation Point Charts".

So the "Home Resort Point Charts" for VGF as example might have a Studio at 20 point/night while the "DVC Vacation Point Charts" for VGF have it as 22 point/night.

I am not seeing anything in what you outlined that states that can not be the case.

I'd have to dig in deeper, but that would likely be a violation of the terms. You can't have a different point chart for direct buyers vs others, as the ownership interest doesn't change. It would be devaluing your deeded ownership interest.

Remember, the TOTAL number of points in a resort is FIXED. Under your example -- 1 point chart for home-resort-owners and a different point chart for non-home people, would result in a fluctuating point total.

 

[sethschroeder]

I'd have to dig in deeper, but that would likely be a violation of the terms. You can't have a different point chart for direct buyers vs others, as the ownership interest doesn't change. It would be devaluing your deeded ownership interest.

Remember, the TOTAL number of points in a resort is FIXED. Under your example -- 1 point chart for home-resort-owners and a different point chart for non-home people, would result in a fluctuating point total.

I never said direct vs resale.

Again the only thing is when a DVC member goes to book a resort they are eligible for the point chart does not have to be the home point chart that we see today. There can be two different point charts one for home owners and one for other resort owners.

As outlined by another poster there was actual language out there so you would have to review that to get more indepth answers.

Under your example -- 1 point chart for home-resort-owners and a different point chart for non-home people, would result in a fluctuating point total.

Well I can't say what their requirements are. Also it could be that the point total across all of DVC is used to set the point charts so that all points are accounted for still. Not really sure don't think its ever been even teased by Disney simply in the documentation that was talked about.

 

[havoc315]

I never said direct vs resale.

Again the only thing is when a DVC member goes to book a resort they are eligible for the point chart does not have to be the home point chart that we see today. There can be two different point charts one for home owners and one for other resort owners.

As outlined by another poster there was actual language out there so you would have to review that to get more indepth answers.



Well I can't say what their requirements are. Also it could be that the point total across all of DVC is used to set the point charts so that all points are accounted for still. Not really sure don't think its ever been even teased by Disney simply in the documentation that was talked about.

No, it's quite solid in the contract that the total points for each particular resort is fixed and cannot be changed. If you had a different chart for home-users vs DVC-traders, it would cause there to be a different number of points each year. It simply doesn't work.

If Disney wants to make the rooms "cheaper" for a home-user vs a DVC trader, the way they can do it is simply to make the points cheaper, but the point chart higher.
Thus, say you are a Riviera owner, you pay $170-180ish per point. They can charge direct buyers at DVC Vegas a mere $120 per point. (This obviously already happens across the DVC Map). They can also make it so the DVC Vegas owner is paying very low maintenance, say $4 per point. While at Riviera, you're paying $8.50 per point.

So that studio at DVC-Vegas that is priced at 20 points per night... It would be 20 points for the home-owner and for the DVC-trader. But they are booking it with points purchased for $120 per point and for $4 maintenance. While you're booking it with a $170/$8.50 point.

That's really the only way they can give a newer resort an "advantage" -- by making it cheaper. And to some degree, you may already get that benefit from buying at Riviera versus the older resorts., especially if the dues fall in line with the other resorts over the next couple of years. (Buying resale at GFV isn't much cheaper than buying new at Riviera... so when you use your Riviera points at GFV, you're getting a "bargain" compared to someone who bought recently directly at GFV, though the dues difference could eventually eat away at that advantage).

 

[sethschroeder]

No, it's quite solid in the contract that the total points for each particular resort is fixed and cannot be changed. If you had a different chart for home-users vs DVC-traders, it would cause there to be a different number of points each year. It simply doesn't work.

Again you need to read the information that is out there.

You seem to keep missing that difference. "Home Resort Points" are a fixed number at a specific resort. "Disney Vacation Points" are ever increasing with a new resort. There is nothing you have posted that shows they need to have the same point charts.

That's really the only way they can give a newer resort an "advantage"

Again you are missing the point. Its not about giving a new resort an advantage. Its simply that Home Resort Point Charts =/= Disney Vacation Point Charts automatically. They have equaled each other but nothing states this. Actually its quite opposite that its been posted that it states it can be different.

Comment from earlier today also its been brought up various times by others on this forum in the past:

Seth is correct. BVTC could establish separate and distinct points charts for non-home resort owners. For instance, a BWV villa that cost a BWV owner 15 points a night might cost an SSR owner 20 points per night. That provision was in the contracts or rules when we bought 23 years ago and has just never been implemented.

Nothing you have shown me explicitly forbids this. Remember "Home Resort Points" and "Disney Vacation Points" are completely different things. Also "Home Resort Point Charts" explicitly defines that its the point requirement for "Home Resort Points" it does not mention at all "Disney Vacation Points" how many it takes or if they get to use the same point charts.

 

[havoc315]

Again you need to read the information that is out there.

You seem to keep missing that difference. "Home Resort Points" are a fixed number at a specific resort. "Disney Vacation Points" are ever increasing with a new resort. There is nothing you have posted that shows they need to have the same point charts.





Again you are missing the point. Its not about giving a new resort an advantage. Its simply that Home Resort Point Charts =/= Disney Vacation Point Charts automatically. They have equaled each other but nothing states this. Actually its quite opposite that its been posted that it states it can be different.

Comment from earlier today also its been brought up various times by others on this forum in the past:


Nothing you have shown me explicitly forbids this. Remember "Home Resort Points" and "Disney Vacation Points" are completely different things. Also "Home Resort Point Charts" explicitly defines that its the point requirement for "Home Resort Points" it does not mention at all "Disney Vacation Points" how many it takes or if they get to use the same point charts.

Of course each resort can (and does) have a different point chart. But if you have 2 different point charts within the same resort, then it upsets the fixed number of points.

Let me simplify it. Imagine the resort has just 1 room. It is 10 points per week for home-resort people. But it’s 20 points per week for traders.
So how many points does the resort have in total?

As to vacation points = home ownership points, it literally says it in the contract.
Only way you could change it with a new resort is by excluding the resort from DVC. But if it’s DVC, if it trades into other DVC resorts, then other resorts must be able to trade into it via the contract terms

The contract says exactly:


“Owners will be permitted to use their Home Resort Vacation Points each Use Year to make a reservation at their Home Resort
or participate in the DVC Reservation Component by converting all or a portion of their Home Resort Vacation Points as “DVC
Vacation Points” for the purpose of requesting a reservation at other DVC Resorts through the DVC Reservation Component”

As an attorney, that language is clear. You can convert your home ownership point into a DVC vacation. Point. Convert it into a whole point. Not convert it into 0.5 points, not convert it into 1.5 points.

Only way you could change it with a new resort is by excluding the resort from DVC. But if it’s DVC, if it trades into other DVC resorts, then other resorts must be able to trade into it via the contract terms. By the terms of the contract, it’s a point for point conversion.

 

[Sandisw]

No, it's quite solid in the contract that the total points for each particular resort is fixed and cannot be changed. If you had a different chart for home-users vs DVC-traders, it would cause there to be a different number of points each year. It simply doesn't work.

If Disney wants to make the rooms "cheaper" for a home-user vs a DVC trader, the way they can do it is simply to make the points cheaper, but the point chart higher.
Thus, say you are a Riviera owner, you pay $170-180ish per point. They can charge direct buyers at DVC Vegas a mere $120 per point. (This obviously already happens across the DVC Map). They can also make it so the DVC Vegas owner is paying very low maintenance, say $4 per point. While at Riviera, you're paying $8.50 per point.

So that studio at DVC-Vegas that is priced at 20 points per night... It would be 20 points for the home-owner and for the DVC-trader. But they are booking it with points purchased for $120 per point and for $4 maintenance. While you're booking it with a $170/$8.50 point.

That's really the only way they can give a newer resort an "advantage" -- by making it cheaper. And to some degree, you may already get that benefit from buying at Riviera versus the older resorts., especially if the dues fall in line with the other resorts over the next couple of years. (Buying resale at GFV isn't much cheaper than buying new at Riviera... so when you use your Riviera points at GFV, you're getting a "bargain" compared to someone who bought recently directly at GFV, though the dues difference could eventually eat away at that advantage).

It has been shared by many that BVTC can indeed have a different point charts for trades as that is not bound by the home resort points chart.

Trading out is a perk for the resort being part of the club and there is nothing currently that prohibits BVTC from charging non resort owners more points to stay there,

Doing so does not add points to the system because as you mention, the number of points to stay at the home resort is fixed.

 

[Sandisw]

Here is the specific language regarding BVTC. They reserve the right to make their own charts for using the DVC reservation component as well as charge a fee...which I didn’t know. It even sounds like it doesn’t have to be for all resorts. Pretty much they have a lot of leeway when it comes to exchanges.

End result is that any and all trading into other resorts is pretty much controlled by BVTC and it does not have to match home resort points.

 

[limace]

While this highly technical argument between some of you folks is fascinating to you all my guess is it isn’t really helping OP make their decision.

 

[Sandisw]

While this highly technical argument between some of you folks is fascinating to you all my guess is it isn’t really helping OP make their decision.

Just important for everyone to understand the trading when deciding a resort...but yeah, knowing what could happen may not be at the top of the list,

it is though why I think buying at a resort you are happy and can book during home resort is important.

 

[Spark65]

Sara : , married to David , Mom to Mary, age 20 , Else, 11 , and Cader, 8!

So lets take a left turn to the technical issues for a moment and try and define your signature:

You are evil queen Sara married to poor hard working coffee drinking computer geek David with a party animal daughter Mary her little sister wild and crazy Else and a future Eddie Haskell Mr. Cader!

Am I close? Do I get points for this?

 

[limace]

Spot on! Except I can’t see it when mobile so didn’t realize it was three years old