Resale Restriction

[zavandor]

Just a question of curiosity... Doesn't the language in RIV's POS that indicates that they can remove the restrictions at any time also mean that they can add it back as well? I will say that the restrictions alone are what turns me off about Riviera. But even if they remove it, can I trust Disney to keep it off?

It's correct. But there is also language that allows to introuce even more restrictions: if I'm not wrong, there is even the possibility they may restrict the booking window for resale purchasers. For example, 10 months vs 11 months.

The existence of another option, unrestricted resale points, makes new DVC properties unattractive by comparison.

Exactly. Buy the L14 resorts resale and you're still buying into the Disney Vacation Club, with the possibility of booking different resorts.
Buy Riviera resale and you're just buying into 1 hotel. It cannot be defined a Vacation Club, just one resort with a not cost effective exchange option into RCI.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

I'm starting to really believe that the horrible stock market and the COVID 19 virus concerns by travelers will really hurt disney financially. This scenario might allow DVC to take away the restrictions and claim it's to increase confidence in Disney due to virus/ economy. This wont be their #1 choice, but they will do anything to improve sales of Riviera. The Feb and March DVC sales data will be VERY important.

They could triple DVC sales and it would be basically a blip on the radar.
Shanghai and Hong Kong being closed, and perhaps half full cruise ships are the issue. Doubling DVC sales is probably like throwing lounge chairs off the QE2 to reduce its weight

 

[RivShore]

Accept that sales are not doing well. If you watched the podcast the other day, you would see that Pete and the others were talking about how at the current rate of sales that it would take 7-8 years to sell out. I can assure you that Disney does not want to have RR on the market that long. It will interfere with Reflections. If sales don’t pick up soon, I think Disney will have to do something. And no, Disney will not base decisions on Coronavirus. That is a temporary problem.

They did not have Jan. sales data when they made that podcast.

Jan. sales data included just the first 15 days of the resort being open and the sales numbers much better than prior months.

Even Pete said these were great numbers in post 926 of this thread:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/r...2019-december-added-1-16-2020.3771338/page-47

 

[Soap_1984]

My point is simply: Covid 19 could be the scapegoat Disney needs to remove the resale restrictions. They blame the virus and move on like it wasnt their fault to begin with...

I agree this is most likely a short term problem (3 to 6 months) but that amount of time can really hurt the financial statements of Disney. When in financial distress companies look for creative ideas that dont cost them any money to bring in new sales.

They don't need a scapegoat you are assuming they want to remove the restrictions. They don't need a scapegoat everyone will (or should) rejoice and welcome the removal of the restrictions.

Sales so far have not been great, but I agree that it will take some time to determine the true performance. The coronavirus will throw a wrench in that timeline though, as I do think sales will be really bad now, not necessarily due to anything related to riviera specifically.

 

[Sandisw]

Just a question of curiosity... Doesn't the language in RIV's POS that indicates that they can remove the restrictions at any time also mean that they can add it back as well? I will say that the restrictions alone are what turns me off about Riviera. But even if they remove it, can I trust Disney to keep it off?

Yes

 

[Sandisw]

It's correct. But there is also language that allows to introuce even more restrictions: if I'm not wrong, there is even the possibility they may restrict the booking window for resale purchasers. For example, 10 months vs 11 months.



Exactly. Buy the L14 resorts resale and you're still buying into the Disney Vacation Club, with the possibility of booking different resorts.
Buy Riviera resale and you're just buying into 1 hotel. It cannot be defined a Vacation Club, just one resort with a not cost effective exchange option into RCI.

None of the RIV paperwork discussing booking windows specifically. It does however say it could set up situations for some clubs members and not others, Could that allow them to adjust booking windows? Maybe. I don’t see that but basically, the covered all bases with the document so that it gives them the ability to adjust as they see fit.

 

[ScubaCat]

I'm starting to really believe that the horrible stock market and the COVID 19 virus concerns by travelers will really hurt disney financially. This scenario might allow DVC to take away the restrictions and claim it's to increase confidence in Disney due to virus/ economy. This wont be their #1 choice, but they will do anything to improve sales of Riviera. The Feb and March DVC sales data will be VERY important.

Considering they still raised prices during the recession 12 years ago, that's very highly unlikely. What's far more likely is they'll just wait it out.

Sales so far have not been great

Not really true - that's just gossip primarily. Some resorts sell faster than others, but most likely it'll sell out in a few years and we'll move on to Reflections.

the covered all bases

All your base are belong to us.

 

[RivShore]

Sales so far have not been great

Why are people still saying this? Did you see January numbers that included just 15 days of the resort being open? Even the critics thought they were pretty darn good.

Now with the virus, sales will tank but before that, sales were far from "not great".

 

[Sandisw]

Why are people still saying this? Did you see January numbers that included just 15 days of the resort being open? Even the critics thought they were pretty darn good.

Now with the virus, sales will tank but before that, sales were far from "not great".

I agree, Selling around 180,000 points in one month is pretty good In my book.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

If Disney take off restrictions they will stay off, because the way the clause is written if they re-imposed them anyone who bought in the interim would have a case.

 

[MonkeyKnifeFight]

Why are people still saying this? Did you see January numbers that included just 15 days of the resort being open? Even the critics thought they were pretty darn good.

Now with the virus, sales will tank but before that, sales were far from "not great".

Because the dis dvc show just aired on Monday that said sales weren’t great. But it was probably filmed before the January numbers were released.

 

[Sandisw]

If Disney take off restrictions they will stay off, because the way the clause is written if they re-imposed them anyone who bought in the interim would have a case.

I think if you are buying though, and it says they can be removed or put back in, you are buying under those terms. Since resale assumes terms, they’d be covered,

That is not to say people wouldn’t object, but think it would be more likely that it would be more in line of them suspending them..,like banking and borrowing can be..to help with booking issues,

But I agree in practical sense, if they went that route, it would be permanent.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I think if you are buying though, and it says they can be removed or put back in, you are buying under those terms. Since resale assumes terms, they’d be covered,

That is not to say people wouldn’t object, but think it would be more likely that it would be more in line of them suspending them..,like banking and borrowing can be..to help with booking issues,

But I agree in practical sense, if they went that route, it would be permanent.

My understanding is that it mostly says they can remove them, and they can add more, but does not explicitly spell out that once removed stuff can be put back in. That's where I see the wiggle for sales while removed if they put the same restriction back.

 

[Sandisw]

My understanding is that it mostly says they can remove them, and they can add more, but does not explicitly spell out that once removed stuff can be put back in. That's where I see the wiggle for sales while removed if they put the same restriction back.

Actual language is “DVD has reserved the right, in its discretion, to modify or revoke implementation of any of these prohibitions, or then reinstate implementation of any of these prohibitions as it determines in its discretion from time to time.....”

So, they did explicitly state they can take out and put back as they see fit, There is more in terms of applying things to select a Club members, categories of Club Members or to set times,

Like I said, it’s pretty detailed and we had to specifically sign a document with this language so it was clear we understood.

I personally don’t see the wiggle room as it’s pretty strong language.

 

[ScubaCat]

I made a FAQ that should help with this topic since there seems to be some ongoing disagreement.


DVC Resale Restrictions Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Will the latest resale restrictions ever be lifted or reversed?
A: No.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

I honestly think the provisions are so open for changes to protect direct members because if too many members are resale and can only stay there thats going to make it very hard for direct members who paid full price the ability to stay at Riviera. In 10 - 15 years i could see them changing the booking for resale from 11 months to 10 to allow direct members more of an advantage and rightfully so honestly since they paid more for their points.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

Id imagine eventually they DVC will also sell upgrade packages to make resale riviera points direct like, this would alloow them to make up for the lost income via resale points.

 

[petalsnpolkadots]

I was getting ready to close on a DVC Riviera sale through Disney and I canceled at the last minute to buy resale as I'm all about a good deal. The salesperson never once mentioned sales restrictions on Riv. Thank God I canceled, i would be so upset right now. I found out about the restriction from the DVC show podcast. I love that podcast.

 

[Bing Showei]

I honestly think the provisions are so open for changes to protect direct members because if too many members are resale and can only stay there thats going to make it very hard for direct members who paid full price the ability to stay at Riviera. In 10 - 15 years i could see them changing the booking for resale from 11 months to 10 to allow direct members more of an advantage and rightfully so honestly since they paid more for their points.

As a Riviera owner, you’re essentially advocating for greater restrictions and a further devaluing of your ownership to compensate for a developer-centric/created problem that made using your ownership more challenging in the first place.

This circular logic and reasoning is mind boggling, but illustrates well why Disney believes they can raise prices, reduce value, and still move product with impunity.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

As a Riviera owner, you’re essentially advocating for greater restrictions and a further devaluing of your ownership to compensate for a developer-centric/created problem that made using your ownership more challenging in the first place.

This circular logic and reasoning is mind boggling, but illustrates well why Disney believes they can raise prices, reduce value, and still move product with impunity.

Well is it exactly fair that those that buy Direct and pay more should be hindered by those that by resale and are locked in to that resort causing booking issues? I hate the restrictions. I hate that its 2 different classes of owners honestly. But again, if I bought direct at Riviera and someone buys resale and those customers can only book at 1 resort it's going to cause problems down the road if Ownership % gets higher that is resale. I still don't think this is fair to DVC owners in general. But if you are thinking if buying Riviera and there's a chance that booking availability could get harder when resale ownership hits say 20%, now those owners can only stay at Riviera, causing harm to Direct owners.