Resale Restriction

[zavandor]

I honestly think the provisions are so open for changes to protect direct members because if too many members are resale and can only stay there thats going to make it very hard for direct members who paid full price the ability to stay at Riviera. In 10 - 15 years i could see them changing the booking for resale from 11 months to 10 to allow direct members more of an advantage and rightfully so honestly since they paid more for their points.

This is the doomsday scenario, as I call it. It it'll ever happen, Riviera contracts will be worth pennies on the resale market.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

This is the doomsday scenario, as I call it. It it'll ever happen, Riviera contracts will be worth pennies on the resale market.

this is what has me worried. No one really knows what % is Resale. I would be very concerned with Reflections if they have 200 rooms and a majority of points in Cabins. It could turn out to be CCV 3.0 honestly.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

This is the doomsday scenario, as I call it. It it'll ever happen, Riviera contracts will be worth pennies on the resale market.

It also makes me ask, what is the amount that would cause Disney to buy back Riviera on the Resale market?

 

[Bing Showei]

Well is it exactly fair that those that buy Direct and pay more should be hindered by those that by resale and are locked in to that resort causing booking issues? I hate the restrictions. I hate that its 2 different classes of owners honestly. But again, if I bought direct at Riviera and someone buys resale and those customers can only book at 1 resort it's going to cause problems down the road if Ownership % gets higher that is resale. I still don't think this is fair to DVC owners in general. But if you are thinking if buying Riviera and there's a chance that booking availability could get harder when resale ownership hits say 20%, now those owners can only stay at Riviera, causing harm to Direct owners.

Is it that you feel owners should have a greater rights because they paid more? Or is it a question of who pays more to the developer?

If it's the former, fast forward 15 years. Let's say a resale owner pays $200 (2020 dollars) for Riviera resale. Should that owner have more rights than you? If it's about who pays more, resale owners at a lot of Disney timeshare properties should wield greater rights than their direct owner counterparts. $225 for VGC on the resale market is literally more than twice what somewhat bought it for in 2009 from the developer (not counting inflation). Are you advocating that booking rights be commensurate with $ paid?

If it's the latter, then your proposal has nothing to do with equity, or fairness for the ownership. It's just a position you hold so that you can maintain your place in an advantaged class in the very class system you profess to hate.

Keep in mind that every resale owner at Riviera will pay the exact same annual dues you do, yet you want to have an advantage despite the fact that they could potentially pay more than you did for their ownership.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

Is it that you feel owners should have a greater rights because they paid more? Or is it a question of who pays more to the developer?

If it's the former, fast forward 15 years. Let's say a resale owner pays $200 (2020 dollars) for Riviera resale. Should that owner have more rights than you? If it's about who pays more, resale owners at a lot of Disney timeshare properties should wield greater rights than their direct owner counterparts. $225 for VGC on the resale market is literally more than twice what somewhat bought it for in 2009 from the developer (not counting inflation). Are you advocating that booking rights be commensurate with $ paid?

If it's the latter, then your proposal has nothing to do with equity, or fairness for the ownership. It's just a position you hold so that you can maintain your place in an advantaged class in the very class system you profess to hate.

Keep in mind that every resale owner at Riviera will pay the exact same annual dues you do, yet you want to have an advantage despite the fact that they could potentially pay more than you did for their ownership.

Comparing prices paid now to future prices isn't exactly fair. But for those that pay the direct price up front and those that pay anywhere from 30-50% off or more of what Riv could be via resale knowing that they can only book there it could make Riviera Direct owners not very happy if booking difficulty gets worse with more and more resale ownership there.

I'm not advocating for more separation, I'm just speculating on what I can see down the line. Disney will most likely be more loyal and more inclined to keep the Direct owners happier than the very resale owners they are trying to harm in the first place. It is no different than what disney has changed with Member Benefits. If the resale restrictions cause harm to the new DVC resorts disney only will be more inclined to help the Direct owners because ultimately they will want to defend them to promote more direct sales.

I'm not going to act like a Direct owner isn't in an advanced class because they are. Its just the way it is now. They payed more upfront at the beginning so why should they not hold more benefits? I would never buy a DVC property with Resale restrictions no matter the price resale. Its a hampered product and you know that buying it.

I can hate the resale restrictions but at the same time advocate for those that bought in and have no restrictions because they bought direct. When you buy Riviera Resale or any other New DVC properties you know at the time it is Not the same product.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

Are you advocating that booking rights be commensurate with $ paid?

No. It's more about the product you bought. Direct buyers of new DVC properties bought the unrestricted way. Don't try to paint me as someone that is entitled.

 

[CraigInPA]

In 10 - 15 years i could see them changing the booking for resale from 11 months to 10 to allow direct members more of an advantage and rightfully so honestly since they paid more for their points.

You're assuming that the resale price for RIV in 10 years will be less than the direct price today? That's not supported by history. My own home resort, BLT, was sold, IIRC, for about $90pp when it opened. 10 years later, it was selling for $100pp resale. 15 years later, it was selling for $130pp resale. It's a fallacy that people who purchased direct always pay more than resale purchasers.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

You're assuming that the resale price for RIV in 10 years will be less than the direct price today? That's not supported by history. My own home resort, BLT, was sold, IIRC, for about $90pp when it opened. 10 years later, it was selling for $100pp resale. 15 years later, it was selling for $130pp resale. It's a fallacy that people who purchased direct always pay more than resale purchasers.

No I am not. I'm comparing Direct to Resale. The Direct price will always be more expensive, even in 10 years. If I buy direct in 10-15 years and resale is 200 then Direct price will likely be 250-350 so it will always be more. I'm just saying, direct purchasers at time of purchase are paying more. You can't compare the direct price now to a resale price in 10 years because of inflation. I'm just saying that direct buyers will always have paid more at the time of purchase, whether I buy Direct now at $195 or resale now at $130, direct buyers paid a premium.

 

[mustinjourney]

Is it that you feel owners should have a greater rights because they paid more? Or is it a question of who pays more to the developer?

If it's the former, fast forward 15 years. Let's say a resale owner pays $200 (2020 dollars) for Riviera resale. Should that owner have more rights than you? If it's about who pays more, resale owners at a lot of Disney timeshare properties should wield greater rights than their direct owner counterparts. $225 for VGC on the resale market is literally more than twice what somewhat bought it for in 2009 from the developer (not counting inflation). Are you advocating that booking rights be commensurate with $ paid?

If it's the latter, then your proposal has nothing to do with equity, or fairness for the ownership. It's just a position you hold so that you can maintain your place in an advantaged class in the very class system you profess to hate.

Keep in mind that every resale owner at Riviera will pay the exact same annual dues you do, yet you want to have an advantage despite the fact that they could potentially pay more than you did for their ownership.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

Idk I guess what I'm saying doesn't make sense. I'm just frustrated that disney started the resale restrictions. Especially on such a nice resort with Riviera. I want to buy there, the Resale restrictions scare me. My biggest fear is you drop $30,000 for Riviera, Booking is fine for 10 years then when the % of Resale owners there can only stay at Riviera it becomes very hard to book.

I really hate Disney for this. You shouldn't have to worry so much about it, buying DVC should be fun and not this stressful with so many unknowns. The old system was working great.

I was only saying that if you buy Direct you shouldn't have to worry about the resale restrictions causing booking problems for your experience in the future. Just like the old system but that is most likely what might happen down the road.

 

[Sandisw]

I was getting ready to close on a DVC Riviera sale through Disney and I canceled at the last minute to buy resale as I'm all about a good deal. The salesperson never once mentioned sales restrictions on Riv. Thank God I canceled, i would be so upset right now. I found out about the restriction from the DVC show podcast. I love that podcast.

While it may not have been mentioned, as someone who bought RIV, it was all over the paperwork. So, the good news is that you would have known about it once getting the paperwork and would have been able to cancel the sale easily. I know some may still not like it, but at least they aren't trying to scam people into buying a product without knowing. I am glad you found a contract that fits your needs better.

 

[Sandisw]

As a Riviera owner, you’re essentially advocating for greater restrictions and a further devaluing of your ownership to compensate for a developer-centric/created problem that made using your ownership more challenging in the first place.

This circular logic and reasoning is mind boggling, but illustrates well why Disney believes they can raise prices, reduce value, and still move product with impunity.

I look at it differently. I bought RIV knowing what I was getting and didn't care. Sure, if they want to remove the restrictions, great. If they want to make them more stringent, then I will adjust. Why? Because I personally don't look at resale value as an element when I purchase. I went in to all of this...including all the contracts I have bought and sold...that if I have to sell and I lose my shirt on the contract, so be it. Having said that, I know that the only reason I will every HAVE to sell is if my financial situation is such that I can't afford the yearly MFs. I know that is not likely.

But, I paid $165/pt for my RIV. If I put it on the market today for $100/pt, I would probably be able to sell it. I also know that if the resale owners booking habits impact me as a direct owner, I will adjust what type of rooms I stay in there. I may have to stay elsewhere. I also know I will have to book RIV at 11 months...though I most always do anyway...or risk getting shut out.

So, I am okay with it all and would not have bought if I wasn't.

 

[Sandisw]

Idk I guess what I'm saying doesn't make sense. I'm just frustrated that disney started the resale restrictions. Especially on such a nice resort with Riviera. I want to buy there, the Resale restrictions scare me. My biggest fear is you drop $30,000 for Riviera, Booking is fine for 10 years then when the % of Resale owners there can only stay at Riviera it becomes very hard to book.

I really hate Disney for this. You shouldn't have to worry so much about it, buying DVC should be fun and not this stressful with so many unknowns. The old system was working great.

I was only saying that if you buy Direct you shouldn't have to worry about the resale restrictions causing booking problems for your experience in the future. Just like the old system but that is most likely what might happen down the road.

Only thing I will add to this is when I bought BWV years ago, booking SV studios was pretty easy. It is just the last few years I have had a lot of trouble getting them for F & W. So, booking patterns can and do change and all owners have to adjust. As an owner of RIV, I knew going in that down the road, once it is sold out, and contracts begin to show up, it could affect booking. That is why I know I have to be an 11 month, 8 am booker there or I could find myself frustrated and end up having to stay elsewhere.

Of course, I respect that some people are bothered by this and if they are, it is not the resort for them to purchase.

The real big unknown piece with RIV and it being so different is that we do not know if owners of the resort will sell on the resale market in the same way that current owners of L14 resorts do because the value is good and many are selling for a decent price...even more than they paid.

If RIV resale fall so low because of the restrictions...and owners are going to take a substantial loss...there is a chance that fewer RIV owners will sell but instead rent points out, making the percentage of resale owners at RIV lower than the average. We just don't know.

 

[Bing Showei]

I want to buy there, the Resale restrictions scare me. My biggest fear is you drop $30,000 for Riviera, Booking is fine for 10 years then when the % of Resale owners there can only stay at Riviera it becomes very hard to book.

The resale restrictions shouldn’t scare you for that reason. In all likelihood, if you buy to stay at Riviera, you’ll be fine in your home window. Maybe you don’t get a Standard studio every time, but it’s unlikely the situation will ever be that you can’t book in your home resort for lack of rooms because of the dreaded resale cur. That’s a doomsday scenario few believe are written in stone.

There will be Riviera owner who will stay at BCV to try SAB (and maybe save on points), some will stay at BLT for MK access. Some may even book a cruise (gasp!). The luxury of direct buyers being able to book anywhere will be exercised and the ownership at Riviera will unlikely be affected on the supply side.

Resale owners, like renters, SSR owners, walkers, etc. are just scapegoats for a supply/demand issue that Disney created. It’s a good talking point for guides to use to move product, “No really, we’re adding these restrictions to look out for you direct owners and to protect your interest!” But the last thing owners should be advocating for are more devaluing restrictions, especially when those restrictions are in the name of solving a problem created by restrictions.

 

[CraigInPA]

No I am not. I'm comparing Direct to Resale. The Direct price will always be more expensive, even in 10 years. If I buy direct in 10-15 years and resale is 200 then Direct price will likely be 250-350 so it will always be more. I'm just saying, direct purchasers at time of purchase are paying more. You can't compare the direct price now to a resale price in 10 years because of inflation. I'm just saying that direct buyers will always have paid more at the time of purchase, whether I buy Direct now at $195 or resale now at $130, direct buyers paid a premium.

Actually, you are. Your claim was that DVC may make resale purchasers have a 10 month booking, while direct purchasers would have an 11 month booking, on the basis that direct purchasers paid more for their points and are more deserving of the ability to book what they want. Your claim is not universally true, as I have shown by history. What is true, as you state, is that resale prices on a particular day are lower than direct prices on that same day. It is disingenuous to base a decision to penalize the entire population of resale members by restricting their ability to book on the basis that some resale members may have paid less than some direct members, even though many of them actually paid more per point than the direct members. If you follow your il-logic to the illogical end point, people who paid the highest price per point, new direct members, should get the longest booking window, and those long-term members, who paid the least per point, should get the shortest booking window. Since everyone is paying the same maintenance fees, this idea that some members should get special booking privileges because they paid more than other members (regardless of whether they are direct or resale) is inane.

Disclosure: I have both resale and direct points at BLT, and am a blue card holder.

 

[DougEMG]

All restrictions are for the sole purpose of increasing Disney's sales. Once you've bought the product, they could care less about you. They certainly aren't going to place rules in place for your sole benefit as a direct buyer.

 

[petalsnpolkadots]

While it may not have been mentioned, as someone who bought RIV, it was all over the paperwork. So, the good news is that you would have known about it once getting the paperwork and would have been able to cancel the sale easily. I know some may still not like it, but at least they aren't trying to scam people into buying a product without knowing. I am glad you found a contract that fits your needs better.

I'm very glad to hear that.

 

[AKNOTTS66]

The resale restrictions shouldn’t scare you for that reason. In all likelihood, if you buy to stay at Riviera, you’ll be fine in your home window. Maybe you don’t get a Standard studio every time, but it’s unlikely the situation will ever be that you can’t book in your home resort for lack of rooms because of the dreaded resale cur. That’s a doomsday scenario few believe are written in stone.

There will be Riviera owner who will stay at BCV to try SAB (and maybe save on points), some will stay at BLT for MK access. Some may even book a cruise (gasp!). The luxury of direct buyers being able to book anywhere will be exercised and the ownership at Riviera will unlikely be affected on the supply side.

Resale owners, like renters, SSR owners, walkers, etc. are just scapegoats for a supply/demand issue that Disney created. It’s a good talking point for guides to use to move product, “No really, we’re adding these restrictions to look out for you direct owners and to protect your interest!” But the last thing owners should be advocating for are more devaluing restrictions, especially when those restrictions are in the name of solving a problem created by restrictions.

Thanks for the reassurance and making me feel better. Maybe I am thinking more doomsday thoughts than needed. I guess I just wasn't making sense. I guess I didn't really realize what I was proposing with the 10 month to 11 month difference. Maybe I'm reading too much coronavirus panic stories and its making my head spin.

The resale restrictions really are a pile of crap created by DVC. So you bought Riviera? What room types are you looking to book? We will only ever book studios . I guess half of Riviera is Studios from what I've heard maybe more? 186 studios to 314 rooms? does that sound right?

 

[CarolMN]

Would someone with the Riviera POS please post the wording that allows DVC to treat owners differently when booking the RIviera during the home resort priority period?

I don't think the Riviera POS allows them to have different home resort booking windows for owners based on how they purchased their points. Isn't the wording that keeps resale points from booking elsewhere part of the agreement with BVTC? AFAIK, that agreement does not apply to booking during the home resort priority period.

 

[Sandisw]

Here is the language. I mentioned I doesn’t talk about booking but just different rules in terms of restrictions and making different rules. ETA: I think it is the line about "placing additional prohibitions or limitations on certain Club Members" that some may feel would allow them to adjust booking windows?