"Red Shirt" Vent

[princessmom29]

Exactly what I have found in "real life " as well. Many of the children that I have encouraged parents to gift the extra year and they choose not to ended up with the school retaining the child in the lower grades. 100% of DS's friends are in the top 20 or so in his class of 300. At least 50% of those were "red-shirted" and I think every other kid has already had his or her birthday this year, making them all the oldest in the class. All from great homes, never any trouble and all going off to college 18 or turning 19 and not 17. Works for us.

Well, I was #2 in my class, and gradutated at 17. I did just fine. My best firend from high school ited with me at #2, and was also 17 when we graduated. He is a very sucessful trial lawyer.

 

[princessmom29]

With all of the subjective data given on this subject on the disboards (and IRL), I have to say that 99.9% of people seem to feel that their children who were redshirted benefited from the fact, and only those who sent their children to school, close to the cutoff, had any regrets.

My mother regrets redshirting my sister. She was very close to the October 1st cutoff and the school basically told mom "sh's fine to go, but it's your choice." Mom chose to keep her back. NOT a good idea. When she got to school, she was bored, and she is the type of personality that gets into trouble when not occupied. She STAYED in trouble throughout school, because that first year set the stage. She could have done so much more than she did academically, but started school in trouble and never seemed to be able to get out of it. Mom says now, if she had it to do over, she would send her. NO one wants to tell these kinds of stories however, becuase it shows that they amy ahve madethe wrong decision. No one wants to admit to that.

 

[rt2dz]

My sister was a K teacher and is now the director of our system's early intervention preschool program, so yes I know LOTS of K teachers, and most of them don't say that the wished the kids who struggled had waited a year, but that they wish they could get some support from home to get that child caught up.

I am actually working on a much more, detailed response for when I finish the thread, but I should say, that what you are describing is probably a bigger indication of children in lesser districts/areas than what goes on in affluent areas. And. let's face it, people who go to Disney regularly/semi-regularly, and do the research beforehand even for a once-in-a-lifetime trip, are more likely to be from affluent areas. So most people's experiences (and we're all a bit egocentric), will not be what you are describing--lack of parental involvement. That would most likely be the exception.

 

[rt2dz]

Just curious how all these schools are holding first and second graders back. The only way a child here can be held back prior to the 4th grade is at the parent's request and then the school must approve it. Just because a child is not reading out of Kindergarten does NOT mean they won't be reading in 1st grade and the schools know that. The majority of kids held back in the classes my kids have been in was due to special needs. When my son went to 1st grade he was in a class with only 4 kids reading above grade level. The rest were at or below with the majority below. The school had a reading specialist that visited all classes and if the kdis still needed more than they were pulled during reading.

I just do not understand a school deciding and the parent apparently having no say. In the OP's case, I have to say it makes more sense that the mom did pull him from public school to private so she could hold him back as the public school probably found no reason. I don't see that holding a child back now (especially with the bs NCLB act out there) is all that easy. At least here it isn't.

Not in our, highly competive, district. A parent must approve the recommendation to hold a child back in K, but the school will recommend it. In 1-4, they must have an average of 70 in ALL subjects to go on to the next grade AND be at a certain reading level. If a parent doesn't approve, they have to go through a long and lengthy appeals process that can take all summer and 80% of the time, the parents don't win.

I know one kid in DS9 class who has a 96 in reading, 98 in social studies, 97 in science, and 65 in math. His reading level is off the charts, but he might need to repeat only because of math (teacher from last year was bad). His mother, who I know very well and confides in me, is terrified for him. She knows she can put him in tutoring over the summer to catch him up (he is in tutoring now too, and his grades are climbing, but he will still be behind), but getting through the schools appeal process is going to be slim to none. Luckily, she can prove it was the teacher from last year's fault and with his improvements and math teacher from this year support, she stands a good chance.

 

[princessmom29]

I am actually working on a much more, detailed response for when I finish the thread, but I should say, that what you are describing is probably a bigger indication of children in lesser districts/areas than what goes on in affluent areas. And. let's face it, people who go to Disney regularly/semi-regularly, and do the research beforehand even for a once-in-a-lifetime trip, are more likely to be from affluent areas. So most people's experiences (and we're all a bit egocentric), will not be what you are describing--lack of parental involvement. That would most likely be the exception.

actually, it goes both ways. The teachers in inner city schools need parents to care, and the teachers in affluent ares need parents to stop making excuses for thier kids and start actually backing up the teacher.

 

[mjkacmom]

My mother regrets redshirting my sister. She was very close to the October 1st cutoff and the school basically told mom "sh's fine to go, but it's your choice." Mom chose to keep her back. NOT a good idea. When she got to school, she was bored, and she is the type of personality that gets into trouble when not occupied. She STAYED in trouble throughout school, because that first year set the stage. She could have done so much more than she did academically, but started school in trouble and never seemed to be able to get out of it. Mom says now, if she had it to do over, she would send her. NO one wants to tell these kinds of stories however, becuase it shows that they amy ahve madethe wrong decision. No one wants to admit to that.

I still don't buy it. All of my kids are pretty smart. Academically, they were ready for third grade when they started kindergarten. My oldest was really the only one who acted up out because she was bored, but that was because of a horrible first grade teacher, who made her sit quietly while the others finished their work. She was also one of the youngest in the class. She learned to stay out of trouble, by around the 5th grade. She's now in HS, all honors classes, with a 4.3 GPA.

I live in a high COL area, and I see more parents pushing kids who aren't ready for school, than parents holding kids back because of sports, or because they baby them. I know that this is my reality, but it seems that most have found it to be the same where they live. Maybe things just happen to be different where you are?

 

[rt2dz]

actually, it goes both ways. The teachers in inner city schools need parents to care, and the teachers in affluent ares need parents to stop making excuses for thier kids and start actually backing up the teacher.

I will agree with you to a certain extent. There are some parents out there who need to listen to the school way more than they do. However, there are times that teachers need to be told, they are wrong.

While a teacher does have your kid for 7 hours a day (at least here), not counting the lunch hour, recess, dismissal time where kids go to their area and are accounted for, and specials--so more like 4 -5 hours (at least here)--they also have 21 other students at the same time and are "distracted" teaching and being involved elsewhere. Parents are with their kids a lot more and know many other sides of them (not just the school side). They have them weekends, school vacations, before school and after school and in a more intimate setting. Sometimes, parental instinct is more on target. And some teachers just aren't very good--even if THEY think they are. And sometimes it's just not a good match between teacher and student; different kids do better with different teachers.

 

[rt2dz]

It has taken me FOREVER to read thisthread. While I did end up with some small replies to certain OT areas, this is my main view of the red-shirting in general. I'm sorry it is so long.

Redshirting for some is an easy decision. Around here, the cutoff date is on or before September 1. Unofficially, you are encouraged to hold any child with a summer birthday. There is a lot—I mean, A LOT—of pressure to do so. Parents will start holding their kids as early as May birthdays. The pressure comes from doctors, preschools, the public school, other parents, and even private schools. The reason being, is that K is much more like what 1st grade was 25 years ago. It’s built for a 6 year old and not a 5 year old, especially not a young 5 year old.

In general, another problem with red shirting is that people move around. Not just in state. Each state is different. A child who might start K in a state with a December 31 cutoff date might move the next year to a state with a September 1 cutoff date and that child with the late November birthday will be ahead of his/her peers that started on time (not red-shirted).

My older two that are in school have winter birthdays. They have friends in their class who are up to 1 year older and 1 year younger. They all blend well. The smallest child in DS9 class is actually one of the oldest in the grade. You have short people and tall people. DS9 is one of the tallest in his grade, and the fact that he is hitting puberty early (DH did too), isn’t helping. He’ll be completely man-sized by the age of 12 or 13. Great—a kid who is predicted to be 6’2” is going to be so by the time he starts middle school, and he wasn’t held back. DS6 though is quite small for his age. It doesn’t phase him at all! Athletically, he can keep up with his brother and all his friends—and I’d say most of them are future jocks. He might not be tall, but he can hit a baseball, make a basket, and run just as fast. It would never occur to him he can’t do what the big kids do. They’ve learned together.

Now, I then have DS5. Who I did red-shirt. I sweated it for a year! I’ve had the pressure to hold him since before he was born. I kept saying we’d make that decision when we got closer. And it wasn’t an easy decision. Academically, he keeps with DS6. He is VERY bright. He is also a little on the tinier end, but his large motor skills are well developed. But then there is the opposite side. His fine motor skills are lacking. His ability to pay attention is lacking. His social maturity equals that of a 3 ½ year old.

We have no “official” diagnosis yet, but we do know (unofficially, from doctors/therapists) that he has SPD (sensory processing disorder) and is somewhere on the autism spectrum. They won’t give you the diagnosis until they decide exactly where he falls on the spectrum. Latest theory is it will be Asperger. He’s very high functioning. So, high, they tried to tell me it was nothing. He’s just delayed because he was a little premature. He’s just a boy. We baby him too much. Some kids just develop late; he’s at the far end, but not completely out of the range of normal. I finally sat there when he was 3 years old and told the Dr. to humor me. He knows me. I don’t over react and call for every little thing. That 99% of the time, I call in to make an appointment with the diagnosis already. Everyone will get paid anyhow and I’ll drop it if I’m wrong. I wasn’t; good thing I had older children (also boys) and knew. Now where on the wait list game for trying to get in to every specialist known to man (2-3 wait lists; we’re two years in). BUT, no official diagnosis to meet those requirements that some suggest. Not so easy. Lucky you that you don’t know that.

Well, he did the school evaluation last year. He wouldn’t qualify for PPCD because he was eligible to go to K. They didn’t suggest he go to K because he was not ready; even if he was developmentally on target, even with his advanced academics, they would suggest I hold him one more year because the state has a K program designed to meet the needs of older children, like most (if not all) states. However, they told me I should consider K (two years in a row) because then and only then would he receive services. I held him and pay for services privately (as I have been doing for the last 2 years). He needed time to grow. He needs another year still, but he will start K at age 5 and turn 6 shortly after. I don’t want him going at age 7, especially when he is teaching himself to read and already starting multiplication (those older two are so darn competitive and he takes in everything that goes on around him). His teacher he will have for K keeps telling me not to worry because there will be a wide range of maturity and kindergartners don’t notice. We hope with the combination of private and school services (and a firm diagnosis so that he can get more effective, targeted therapies) he will catch up enough to manage through the rest of school. They tell me that he’ll be well-blended by high school. They’ve told me a lot of things though.

Now, for parents that red-shirt to give their kids an advantage or for sports, if that is truly the reason, all I can do is shake my head. HOWEVER, I find that most parents who say that is the reason, is really having other thoughts that they might not want to admit to publicly. Usually, it’s a maturity issue: their kid might cry at the drop of a hat, can’t keep up with kids even their own age in many ways, etc. And I do know parents who have pushed their kids ahead because they are big for their age, when they should be held back. DS9 has a friend who has struggled every year—K, 1, 2, 3, and now 4—because his parents sent him ahead when the preschool suggested they leave him (July birthday) another year. They didn’t want to spend the money on another year of preschool (transition is only private around here) and worried about him being bigger than other kids. The kid barely passes each year, is falling way behind, and is always high risk. He’s not unintelligent, just not ready for what is being thrown at him—he’s always trying to catch up and keep up. His lack of readiness made it difficult for him to learn skills he needed to learn in K. And, oh, he was a typical 5 year old. Like I said, K is now what 1st was when most of us were growing up. Elementary ends at 4th grade here, 5th and 6th is intermediate, 6th and 7th are middle school, there is a separate 9th grade campus and then 10-12 is typical high school. DS9 friend, will need to be held back at the end of 4th. His parents are hoping with the change in schools, it won’t be as noticeable, but the social stigma is high now if the kids do notice. Not good.

Did you know that developmentally (and we do A LOT of this) that typical 5 year old isn’t even ready to write their first and last name (in order on a sheet of paper)? Surprised me too. Yet that is a requirement for K.

Along with sitting still for up to 15-20 minutes at a time—not something a 5 year old (and certainly not a 4 year old) is developmentally ready to do. At least according to the experts that we need to deal with regarding DS5 (we have to go through, every two weeks, what is typical for a child his age, and what he can do)—and he goes to one of the best centers in the COUNTRY. And you can’t teach that. They either can or they can’t.

Kids also shouldn’t be reading before the age of 6—although that is mostly because of brain development. In order to learn those skills, they have to give up learning other skills—social skills. Skills that cannot be made up, unlike reading. You put your child *permanently* behind. Long term studies (and I wish I had them to quote), show that kids who do learn to read later, are actually better readers later in life (you know, in college, when it counts the most) and more successful? The success they attribute to those other skills and better readers later because reading wasn’t pushed when they weren’t ready. And, yes, there are always exceptions—DS5 is teaching *himself* to read.

And what about those (awful) teachers who do tons of worksheets? Not meant for 5 year olds. Honestly, I’m not pro red-shirting, but I do see it’s advantages for some kids. Had DS6 had a late summer birthday, I might have held him knowing what I know now. DS9 was always advanced, so I would have sent him still. I’m thankful that DS10 months has a February birthday, so no worries there!

 

[GinnyEmma]

Well, I was #2 in my class, and gradutated at 17. I did just fine. My best firend from high school ited with me at #2, and was also 17 when we graduated. He is a very sucessful trial lawyer.

lol, well, I was 18 when I graduated, being one of the oldest in the class and number one...you probably would have been number one if you had waited.

my best friend was only 4 when she started, and did well, too. No biggie. Who the heck cares?

 

[Colleen27]

See, that is exactly what I am getting at. It is not that our children are so much different than the children in Japan or anywhere else. A lot of how well a child does in school has to do with what they are taught at home, not that they are just not develomentally ready. Those kids have the same developmental milestones as ours, so why do they never even consider holding a child back? Thier culture places a huge emphasis on academics and children are taught respect and proper classroom conduct from an early age. Running wild in a clasrrom, not listening, not paying attention are not an option, so it doesn't happen. The children are not any different, but what they are being taught at home is. Mabye we need to start teaching "sustained concentration and quiet play/study" to our children. Many enter K with no clue how to act in a classroom. It is not becuase they are "not ready" but becuase they have never been taught. This is part of the redshirting problem. Parents hold thier children out of school as long as they can, and are not teaching classroom manners at home. Of couse a kid who has never been asked to sit still for more than 5 min is not going to want to, at any age. You know I guess this is the point i am really trying to make here. There is nothing in the natural development of kids that makes them "not ready" for school at 5, but many are not prepared adequately for the classroom environment.

I don't think you're getting the scope of what I'm saying. You keep making this about parental failures to teach (manners, discipline, basic academics, whatever), but that's not what I'm saying. Japan is an entirely different culture from birth to death. It isn't realistic to say that the answer to our educational shortcomings is to try to raise kids with a collectivist mindset in our individualist culture, when everything about our culture is built around that glorification of the individual/free thinker/entrepreneur.

 

[Colleen27]

Not in our, highly competive, district. A parent must approve the recommendation to hold a child back in K, but the school will recommend it. In 1-4, they must have an average of 70 in ALL subjects to go on to the next grade AND be at a certain reading level. If a parent doesn't approve, they have to go through a long and lengthy appeals process that can take all summer and 80% of the time, the parents don't win.

I know one kid in DS9 class who has a 96 in reading, 98 in social studies, 97 in science, and 65 in math. His reading level is off the charts, but he might need to repeat only because of math (teacher from last year was bad). His mother, who I know very well and confides in me, is terrified for him. She knows she can put him in tutoring over the summer to catch him up (he is in tutoring now too, and his grades are climbing, but he will still be behind), but getting through the schools appeal process is going to be slim to none. Luckily, she can prove it was the teacher from last year's fault and with his improvements and math teacher from this year support, she stands a good chance.

That's pretty much how it is where DS went to K too. The school makes the recommendation, and while parents can fight it they seldom succeed, especially if the deficit is in reading. The idea is that if only children who are working on grade level are promoted in early elementary, 100% of 3rd graders will be ready for the start of the NCLB testing. And on that count it works - that district has some of the highest scores in the area, right up there with districts where the median income is 3+ times what it is here and the median parental education level is post-graduate.

My son is the opposite of your DS's friend - off the charts in math and the sciences, excellent oral comprehension, but struggled with reading and writing (and in K, they don't even test for specific learning disabilities absent developmental delays because "it is too soon" - but not too soon to start holding kids back for it He was dx'd dyslexic at 8)

 

[princessmom29]

lol, well, I was 18 when I graduated, being one of the oldest in the class and number one...you probably would have been number one if you had waited.

my best friend was only 4 when she started, and did well, too. No biggie. Who the heck cares?

Hate to burst your bubble. Our number 1 was a 16 year old Korean Kid!

 

[princessmom29]

That's pretty much how it is where DS went to K too. The school makes the recommendation, and while parents can fight it they seldom succeed, especially if the deficit is in reading. The idea is that if only children who are working on grade level are promoted in early elementary, 100% of 3rd graders will be ready for the start of the NCLB testing. And on that count it works - that district has some of the highest scores in the area, right up there with districts where the median income is 3+ times what it is here and the median parental education level is post-graduate.

My son is the opposite of your DS's friend - off the charts in math and the sciences, excellent oral comprehension, but struggled with reading and writing (and in K, they don't even test for specific learning disabilities absent developmental delays because "it is too soon" - but not too soon to start holding kids back for it He was dx'd dyslexic at 8)

This really stinks. We start testing in second semester of K, even in public schools. I am dyslexic BTW, so get the struggle he has. FWIW, most teachers I know HATE NCLB. It has effectively tied us to teaching to a test in public schools, or losing our jobs. That is a large part of the reson my DD is in a private school. Her school has recently added a full counselor, and reading specialist becuase of the influx of children from public school who are nto getting te help they need, particularly those with reading issues. Children need to get that help as soon as someone notices a problem, of that I am sure.

 

[princessmom29]

I don't think you're getting the scope of what I'm saying. You keep making this about parental failures to teach (manners, discipline, basic academics, whatever), but that's not what I'm saying. Japan is an entirely different culture from birth to death. It isn't realistic to say that the answer to our educational shortcomings is to try to raise kids with a collectivist mindset in our individualist culture, when everything about our culture is built around that glorification of the individual/free thinker/entrepreneur.

And I am saying that mabye if we took just a little bit of that to heart and tired to teach our kids that they are NOT the center of the earth, it would benefit us. As to making it about the parent, why wqould the parent not have something to do with a child's readiness for K? Of course they do. I know many don't like to hear it, but the number one problem I had with teaching children in my K-4 class was not the fact that the children weren't ready for lessons or receptive to the information. They were. The largest single difficulty was with getting parents not to undermine the discipline and structure in place in the classroom. They believed their children were "too young" to be expected to pick up thier own toys, or remember to keep thier hands to themselves, ect. I am seeing this from parents in DD's school too. The biggest problem they have had in both her K and first grade class is parents who don't like the fact that their children are being asked to take on some personal responsibility. I coach cheer at the school, and I get the same thing. Parents were appaled that I expected the girls(1st and 2nd grade) to make it through and entire 45 min practice without games and a snack. Could this possibly be the reason these same children were "not ready" for K and are now 8 in first grade???

 

[GinnyEmma]

We are saying that just because you've known some crazies that doesn't mean they are the norm. Lol, and those cheermoms are right there with the crazy party.

 

[jodifla]

That's pretty much how it is where DS went to K too. The school makes the recommendation, and while parents can fight it they seldom succeed, especially if the deficit is in reading. The idea is that if only children who are working on grade level are promoted in early elementary, 100% of 3rd graders will be ready for the start of the NCLB testing. And on that count it works - that district has some of the highest scores in the area, right up there with districts where the median income is 3+ times what it is here and the median parental education level is post-graduate.

My son is the opposite of your DS's friend - off the charts in math and the sciences, excellent oral comprehension, but struggled with reading and writing (and in K, they don't even test for specific learning disabilities absent developmental delays because "it is too soon" - but not too soon to start holding kids back for it He was dx'd dyslexic at 8)

So, what do they do with children with disabilities?? Do they hold kids who should be in 3rd grade still back in Kindergarten?

My school district isn't that far from yours, and the attitude is completely different. ANd they still have sky-high success testing rates. Also, I know a good special education lawyer in the area if anyone needs one.

 

[jodifla]

That's pretty much how it is where DS went to K too. The school makes the recommendation, and while parents can fight it they seldom succeed, especially if the deficit is in reading. The idea is that if only children who are working on grade level are promoted in early elementary, 100% of 3rd graders will be ready for the start of the NCLB testing. And on that count it works - that district has some of the highest scores in the area, right up there with districts where the median income is 3+ times what it is here and the median parental education level is post-graduate.

My son is the opposite of your DS's friend - off the charts in math and the sciences, excellent oral comprehension, but struggled with reading and writing (and in K, they don't even test for specific learning disabilities absent developmental delays because "it is too soon" - but not too soon to start holding kids back for it He was dx'd dyslexic at 8)

Ever thought that maybe teaching's not for you? Your rigidity about what you think kids should be like (and apparently, everyone should be exactly like your daughter) doesn't jive with how kids are.

You discount any story that doesn't match your own narrow narrative.

I'm working with some of the best speech and language researchers in the U.S. at a major university research center over my son's issues, and when they tell me the optimum age for reading for many children is actually about 7 years old and not 5, it holds a whole lot more weight than the fact somebody told you something once at a staff meeting that you don't even have the source for.

 

[Marionnette]

I'm sure she realized it. How could you not realize it? I don't know why she just felt the need to point it out. And to be clear, she said she decided to send him to 2nd grade again because he was "young"...it was her choice, not something that was chosen for her based on an academic or developmental issue. She said she pulled him out of the public school and sent him to the Catholic school specifically so he could repeat the grade because the public school wouldn't let her do that and he was "too young". Unless she's lying? Who knows...

This is a 2nd grade basketball clinic, so clearly not a big deal. At all. Like I said before - she has the right to do as she wishes, I have the right to disagree with it and be annoyed by it. And I will be especially annoyed by it if the kid is allowed to continue playing a year down in sports because of his grade - it could effect the participation of other kids that are "true" grade level - mine or someone else's. Thankfully they're in different schools, so academically it doesn't directly effect my son at all.

A student who is truly athletically gifted will be able to excel regardless of the performance of his teammates. My son has a spring birthday and started kindergarten "on time" by your standards. He started for two years at inside linebacker on a football team with over a hundred boys on the roster. A lot of those juniors and seniors had a couple of years of growth ahead of him. If your child has the ability, then the difference of a year in age will not keep him on the bench.

 

[princessmom29]

A student who is truly athletically gifted will be able to excel regardless of the performance of his teammates. My son has a spring birthday and started kindergarten "on time" by your standards. He started for two years at inside linebacker on a football team with over a hundred boys on the roster. A lot of those juniors and seniors had a couple of years of growth ahead of him. If your child has the ability, then the difference of a year in age will not keep him on the bench.

that is true ,but is it fair to the child who is NOT hugely gifted, but whould have gotten to play if not for the 4 kids playing a year down?

 

[mjkacmom]

So, what do they do with children with disabilities?? Do they hold kids who should be in 3rd grade still back in Kindergarten?

My school district isn't that far from yours, and the attitude is completely different. ANd they still have sky-high success testing rates. Also, I know a good special education lawyer in the area if anyone needs one.

At our schools, the kids who are held back are the ones without diagnosed learning disabilities. Those with disabilities are given modifications, are pulled out for some subjects, given aides, etc., which they are legally entitled to.