"Red Shirt" Vent

Traditionally the early grades had less academic pressure than now, though. Kindergarten in the district we were in when my kids started school is no different than 1st grade in terms of the structure of the day, and there are plenty of perfectly normal, average 4 and 5 year olds who aren't ready for the expectations of a full school day. And the school policy is to "strongly recommend" retention for any student not reading on grade level at the end of kindergarten. Plenty of kids aren't developmentally ready to read at 5.

When I was a high schooler in honor society I tutored 1st and 2nd graders who were struggling with reading but didn't qualify for formal special ed; none of those kids would have passed kindergarten now.
I don't thin kthis is true. It teach high school, but all of the primary research I have seen saya that the vast majority of children are in fact developmentally ready to read at 5, The largest single factor in age approiate children in K not reading is lack of parental involvment in the process. The second is a diagnosed learing diasbility.
 
Traditionally the early grades had less academic pressure than now, though. Kindergarten in the district we were in when my kids started school is no different than 1st grade in terms of the structure of the day, and there are plenty of perfectly normal, average 4 and 5 year olds who aren't ready for the expectations of a full school day. And the school policy is to "strongly recommend" retention for any student not reading on grade level at the end of kindergarten. Plenty of kids aren't developmentally ready to read at 5.

When I was a high schooler in honor society I tutored 1st and 2nd graders who were struggling with reading but didn't qualify for formal special ed; none of those kids would have passed kindergarten now.

But what do you mean 'not ready' - that they will act up a bit in class? Have to be reminded to sit quiety at the beginning of the year? That's normal and expected 4 and 5 year old behavior. So I actually consider these kids ready - and the vast majority will be obviously so a few months into school. 0

And for what it's worth - I only really and truly oppose red shirting strongly when the parents hold them back and then expect more than regular kindergarten curriculum be taught to their child (need to have enrichment or challenge and take the teacher's time away from the kids who are supposed to be in the classroom). Because in the vast majority of red shirting cases - these kids have either had an extra year of a very good preschool program or they have a stay at home parent who works with them a lot - so, not surprisingly, many of these kids already know all the Kindergarten material and are farther ahead on 1st grade material too. So if you're content with having your child sit through stuff they already know, I'm probably OK with your decision. But if you've already made a choice to hold your child back - you already had the chance to give that child 1st grade material - so, IMO, you give up that option by holding them back.
 
I don't thin kthis is true. It teach high school, but all of the primary research I have seen saya that the vast majority of children are in fact developmentally ready to read at 5, The largest single factor in age approiate children in K not reading is lack of parental involvment in the process. The second is a diagnosed learing diasbility.

But even if the majority of kids are ready at five, that still leaves "plenty" who aren't.

(The reason I was "young for my age" was the transfer thing....my parents didn't push me ahead, I started school in a state with a later cutoff, then moved to a state with an earlier cutoff. I agree, even if you enforce cutoff ages, you don't solve the issue without getting the federal government involved - something I can't imagine happening.)
 
But even if the majority of kids are ready at five, that still leaves "plenty" who aren't.

(The reason I was "young for my age" was the transfer thing....my parents didn't push me ahead, I started school in a state with a later cutoff, then moved to a state with an earlier cutoff. I agree, even if you enforce cutoff ages, you don't solve the issue without getting the federal government involved - something I can't imagine happening.)
I said vas majority because actually the numbers are really small, less than 5% so less than 5 out of 100 children are not developmentally ready to read at age 5. That puts it in the realm of developmental delay according to the behavioral psych people.
 

I don't thin kthis is true. It teach high school, but all of the primary research I have seen saya that the vast majority of children are in fact developmentally ready to read at 5, The largest single factor in age approiate children in K not reading is lack of parental involvment in the process. The second is a diagnosed learing diasbility.

The majority, sure. But not all, and not just those with a disability. In the ed. courses I took when we were homeschooling DS, Chall's stages of literacy are taught - 0-6 is pre-reading, 7-8 is phonics and decoding. You'd be hard pressed to find a school around here that would allow a non-reading 6yo to move on to 1st grade, never mind a 7 or 8yo.
 
The majority, sure. But not all, and not just those with a disability. In the ed. courses I took when we were homeschooling DS, Chall's stages of literacy are taught - 0-6 is pre-reading, 7-8 is phonics and decoding. You'd be hard pressed to find a school around here that would allow a non-reading 6yo to move on to 1st grade, never mind a 7 or 8yo.
I have never seen that in all my years of teaching. I guess it depends on who you are taking courses from. If this was some kind of homeschool agency I can see them pushing this kind of thinking. I have never seen a major accredited university teaching that ,however.
 
I said vas majority because actually the numbers are really small, less than 5% so less than 5 out of 100 children are not developmentally ready to read at age 5. That puts it in the realm of developmental delay according to the behavioral psych people.

I'm curious where you got these numbers from.
My mother and MIL have both taught kindergarten for many years, and I taught elementary (so I worked with K teachers), and I have always heard about their students who just weren't ready to start K yet. They can tell fairly early in the year who just isn't getting it and will most likely have to be held back in K another year. I see lots of opinions and conjectures about how kids are "ready" and how they are affecting other kids, but if you ask K teachers with real-life experience, you will hear about how there are always kids who need another year to develop before starting K.
 
I'm curious where you got these numbers from.
My mother and MIL have both taught kindergarten for many years, and I taught elementary (so I worked with K teachers), and I have always heard about their students who just weren't ready to start K yet. They can tell fairly early in the year who just isn't getting it and will most likely have to be held back in K another year. I see lots of opinions and conjectures about how kids are "ready" and how they are affecting other kids, but if you ask K teachers with real-life experience, you will hear about how there are always kids who need another year to develop before starting K.

Exactly. How many kids are left behind basically because they weren't ready for the academics. Especially boys. PM29's numbers do in no way include those children not ready to read yet. /basing it on whether they can sit still is stupid. And excusing behavior due to boredom and rationalizing it that way is far more so.

I wonder how much a high school teacher is involved in the process. Making judgments based on those who take upper level science or math seems a bit odd.
 
Some of you may remember me from previous threads about "should I start Kindergarten or hold them back", and it is no secret that I am a proponent of sending kids to school rather than holding them back unless there is a developmental reason. Just my opinion, yours may differ.

So this week I am sitting in my son's basketball practice (the 2nd grade clinic) with a mother who is going on and on about how worried she is because her son is so tall and thin compared to the other kids. She even said something about how he was in a play at school and when they all lined up on stage at the end he looked like "an Amazon kid" (her words not mine) compared to the other kids.

I happen to remember this kid, because when he was in our public school he was a grade ahead of my son, but now they are in the same grade. Conversation continues, and I find out that she pulled him out of public school at the end of 2nd grade, and put him in 2nd grade again in the Catholic school because he's her "baby" (an only child) she thought he was "too young". He is an October birthday, my son is November, a year later.

I know I'm a little hyper-sensitive to this because I have a November-birthday son that I sent to school, but she seriously annoyed me. Of course your kid is "so tall" compared to the other kids in the 2nd grade basketball clinic...HE'S A YEAR OLDER THAN THEY ARE!

While I realize that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her child, I reserve the right to be annoyed. I'm annoyed at the fact that now this kid (currently a head taller than everyone else in the group) will be playing sports against kids a year younger than he is, and at the fact that the mother just wouldn't stop about how her son is "so tall". :headache:

Just wanted to vent. Thanks for listening.

To the OP: maybe she just came up with that "fib" b/c she is embarrassed. I highly doubt she would make him repeat a grade just b/c "he is her baby" Chances are the school held him back. My son was held back in 1st grade. He has a late February birthday so he went to K when he was 5.5 years old. The teachers, the principal & us parents had numerous talks about it and in the end they recommended it was best for my son. So yes, he is a year older, maybe taller and plays sports with the kids that are younger. It is not his fault. :( He is now in 5th grade and an honor roll student! :) Maybe the kid is just tall?
 
People red-shirt today largely because the kindergarten curriculum doesn't match their child's skills K is not K anymore, and we all know that. K is 1st grade. So people are rightly reluctant to subject their children to that, particularly boys, who aren't ready to sit there for long lessons.

The current state we live in has a Dec. 1 cutoff date....my son was born on the actually cutoff date. So if I sent him, he'd be the youngest. Couple that with his severe language delay and it was an easy decision to pay for a Jr. K for a year instead, even though it would have been easier and cheaper just to shove him into K. I didn't do it to make other moms unhappy, I did it because it was best for my child. And even if he didn't have the language delay I would have likely held him because the state we are planning to return to (FL) has a Sept. 1 cutoff (MUCH MORE PRACTICAL!!) He is the tallest boy in his class, towering over kids not born a year younger than him, but just a few days younger than him later in the cutoff month. But several of the girls are even taller than he is.

Also, there a lots of cultures where children don't start reading until age 7. Plenty of kids aren't ready at 5, or even 6, as all the reading recovery programs in every elementary school in this country show.
 
People red-shirt today largely because the kindergarten curriculum doesn't match their child's skills K is not K anymore, and we all know that. K is 1st grade. So people are rightly reluctant to subject their children to that, particularly boys, who aren't ready to sit there for long lessons.

The current state we live in has a Dec. 1 cutoff date....my son was born on the actually cutoff date. So if I sent him, he'd be the youngest. Couple that with his severe language delay and it was an easy decision to pay for a Jr. K for a year instead, even though it would have been easier and cheaper just to shove him into K. I didn't do it to make other moms unhappy, I did it because it was best for my child. And even if he didn't have the language delay I would have likely held him because the state we are planning to return to (FL) has a Sept. 1 cutoff (MUCH MORE PRACTICAL!!) He is the tallest boy in his class, towering over kids not born a year younger than him, but just a few days younger than him later in the cutoff month. But several of the girls are even taller than he is.

Also, there a lots of cultures where children don't start reading until age 7. Plenty of kids aren't ready at 5, or even 6, as all the reading recovery programs in every elementary school in this country show.
2 things
1. "not ready" to sit through the lessons at 5? I don't get why that is an ok excuse to use at age 5. If you expect them to sit through a lesson (which in DD's K never exceeded 20 min) and do not accept excuses for not doing so then they will, but the parent has to support and renforce that at home, not say "but he's not ready." There is NO reason a 5 year old should not be able to sit still for 20 min and listen, unless there is a medical condition at work.

2. Have you looked at the demographics of those children? In our district children in reading intervention are largely from households where learnig is not a prioity. The majority of them had never seen a book before K. They have been taught NOTHING at home. We did the demographic studies becuase we found there were much larger percentages of children reading below grade level in certian schools in our district. Many of them at a rate of 3 to 4 times those in other locations. It had little to do with "developmental readiness" and everything to do with socioeconomics and parental involvment in learning. Exposure to reading prior to K, and reading support at home was the number 1 factor. Children can and do learn when they are supported at home, with the rare exception of course. Honestly, I think a lot of parents use the "he's not ready" argument as an excuse to hold back, or because they just don't want to accept the fact that their child might not fall into the realm of normal development. If they shift the "normal" range then suddenly everything is ok. There is also the group that use "he's not ready" as reason THEIR child just cannot sit still in class, rather than using solid dicipline to fix the problem. THIS is the reality, not that teachers are asking "So much more". I remeber reading in K, at the beginning of the year. I remember doing addition and subtraction. My K was not play day. It shouldn't be. It is school. Children need to be learning, and we as parents shouldn't be making excuses as to why they shouldn't be asked to.
 
THIS is the reality, not that teachers are asking "So much more". I remeber reading in K, at the beginning of the year. I remember doing addition and subtraction. My K was not play day. It shouldn't be. It is school. Children need to be learning, and we as parents shouldn't be making excuses as to why they shouldn't be asked to.

There was absolutely NO reading when I was in kindergarten. I remember learning my shapes and colors, plus a nap (and it was 1/2 day :rotfl:). I remember first grade, when we began to read. I believe what caused the change was the number of kids who attended daycare, and it was found that kids could read earlier than thought. However, not all kids are ready. In my experience, the kids I know who struggle with school are from families who value education, and who go above and beyond with their children's academics. Lots of the families who don't value education, and don't work with their kids at home, are the ones who are anxious to send their kids to school, free daycare.
 
There was absolutely NO reading when I was in kindergarten. I remember learning my shapes and colors, plus a nap (and it was 1/2 day :rotfl:). I remember first grade, when we began to read. I believe what caused the change was the number of kids who attended daycare, and it was found that kids could read earlier than thought. However, not all kids are ready. In my experience, the kids I know who struggle with school are from families who value education, and who go above and beyond with their children's academics. Lots of the families who don't value education, and don't work with their kids at home, are the ones who are anxious to send their kids to school, free daycare.
Kids YOU KNOW. How many children from homes that don't value education do you know?? I don't imagine they run in the same social ciricles. The data show, and least in our district, that the majority of children who struggle come from poverty level homes with no emphasis placed on education. In our area Head Start is huge for these families. A lot of head start clients WANT their childern retained in head start another year rather than sent to K because they get to keep all of the financial assistance that goes along with having a child in head start. They get extra food stamp help, utility assitance, a clothing allowance for the kids, ect. There is not interest in teadching thier kids and moving them ahead becuase there is no financial gain in it.
 
I have never seen that in all my years of teaching. I guess it depends on who you are taking courses from. If this was some kind of homeschool agency I can see them pushing this kind of thinking. I have never seen a major accredited university teaching that ,however.

No, this was the local college; when we were homeschooling I was also working on my degree so I took a few ed. courses out of personal interest/desire to better be able to teach my son (who has always been my challenge - with my daughter just reading to her and play-writing/doing workbooks when she wanted "homework" like her brother had was enough to teach her to read).
 
Kids YOU KNOW. How many children from homes that don't value education do you know?? I don't imagine they run in the same social ciricles. The data show, and least in our district, that the majority of children who struggle come from poverty level homes with no emphasis placed on education. In our area Head Start is huge for these families. A lot of head start clients WANT their childern retained in head start another year rather than sent to K because they get to keep all of the financial assistance that goes along with having a child in head start. They get extra food stamp help, utility assitance, a clothing allowance for the kids, ect. There is not interest in teadching thier kids and moving them ahead becuase there is no financial gain in it.

So if Kids aren't learning, it's ALL the parents fault, not the teachers or the schools or the fact that kids are being pushed before their ready.

Nice agenda you have there.

My district is quite wealthy. The kids who are struggling with reading have been read plenty of books.

And volunteering in my son's K classroom I quickly saw the boys were not geared for the "sit down shut up" style of teaching most teachers -- they themselves female -- want at inappropriate ages. It wasn't just my child with his learning challenges -- it was almost every boy in the classroom.
 
There was absolutely NO reading when I was in kindergarten. I remember learning my shapes and colors, plus a nap (and it was 1/2 day :rotfl:). I remember first grade, when we began to read. I believe what caused the change was the number of kids who attended daycare, and it was found that kids could read earlier than thought. However, not all kids are ready. In my experience, the kids I know who struggle with school are from families who value education, and who go above and beyond with their children's academics. Lots of the families who don't value education, and don't work with their kids at home, are the ones who are anxious to send their kids to school, free daycare.



EXACTLY! Reading didn't start in 1st grade back when I was in school....heck, they had just STARTED having K a couple of years before I started school. It was a half-day, we learned letters, played a lot, took naps, etc.
 
2 things
1. "not ready" to sit through the lessons at 5? I don't get why that is an ok excuse to use at age 5. If you expect them to sit through a lesson (which in DD's K never exceeded 20 min) and do not accept excuses for not doing so then they will, but the parent has to support and renforce that at home, not say "but he's not ready." There is NO reason a 5 year old should not be able to sit still for 20 min and listen, unless there is a medical condition at work.

2. Have you looked at the demographics of those children? In our district children in reading intervention are largely from households where learnig is not a prioity. The majority of them had never seen a book before K. They have been taught NOTHING at home. We did the demographic studies becuase we found there were much larger percentages of children reading below grade level in certian schools in our district. Many of them at a rate of 3 to 4 times those in other locations. It had little to do with "developmental readiness" and everything to do with socioeconomics and parental involvment in learning. Exposure to reading prior to K, and reading support at home was the number 1 factor. Children can and do learn when they are supported at home, with the rare exception of course. Honestly, I think a lot of parents use the "he's not ready" argument as an excuse to hold back, or because they just don't want to accept the fact that their child might not fall into the realm of normal development. If they shift the "normal" range then suddenly everything is ok. There is also the group that use "he's not ready" as reason THEIR child just cannot sit still in class, rather than using solid dicipline to fix the problem. THIS is the reality, not that teachers are asking "So much more". I remeber reading in K, at the beginning of the year. I remember doing addition and subtraction. My K was not play day. It shouldn't be. It is school. Children need to be learning, and we as parents shouldn't be making excuses as to why they shouldn't be asked to.

20 min? If that's all it was I think my son would have done much better. Here (well, not in the district we're in now but where we were when he was 5) kindergarten is JUST LIKE 1st grade. So the day looked like: 8:30 until 10, lessons. 10-10:15 recess. 10:15-11:45 lessons. 11:45-12:15 lunch. 12:15-2 lessons. 2-2:15, recess. 2:15-3:35 lessons. Sure, some of the lessons were more hands-on than others, but most of the school day was seat work and even "free play" was with seated activities like coloring pages, lacing cards, and puzzles. I think there are plenty of perfectly normal 5yos who aren't ready to sit at a table for that much of the day, no matter how interesting the material is or how short each individual lesson is.

We're in an area with excellent parental support and involvement. This isn't a school system where the parents just don't care and kids have never seen a book before school, nor is it an area where many parents are overly competitive and looking for an edge. Its a plain old middle class community where parents read to their kids but still look forward to the start of school and the accompanying decrease in daycare bills. Few kids are "red-shirted" but a handful are held back in K each and every year (out of about 50 incoming each year). To me, that indicates a problem with the program/expectations.
 
So if Kids aren't learning, it's ALL the parents fault, not the teachers or the schools or the fact that kids are being pushed before their ready.

Nice agenda you have there.

My district is quite wealthy. The kids who are struggling with reading have been read plenty of books.

And volunteering in my son's K classroom I quickly saw the boys were not geared for the "sit down shut up" style of teaching most teachers -- they themselves female -- want at inappropriate ages. It wasn't just my child with his learning challenges -- it was almost every boy in the classroom.
Sorry, but I don't have an "agenda" in this at all. I teach HIGH SCHOOL, so it has no bearing on what I do. Everyone here is saying how parents know so much better than teachers and how they are so much more in tune to what their kids need, so why is it so hard to believe that parents have a HUGE impact on a child's success ro lack theerof?? I think the whole "boys can't do it" and "teachers expect too much" bit is really just a big cop out. I don't know of any K teacher that subscribes to the "sit down and shut up" school of teaching. They won't get very far with most kids, boy or girl, that way. Heck, I don't do that in high school. I work HARD to keep my kids interested and engaged. I don't teach more than 30 min at a time without stopping to DO something in 10th grade! In K DD's teacher would teach for about 20 min, with the children participating, and then do an activity of some sort begfire pencil and paper work on the subject. That is much how her 1st grade class is run this year. Most teachers use carefully thought out lessons to meet students where they are. But by the same token it is very difficult to convince a child that learning has value when that is not what they are being taught at home. It is also next to impossible to get a child to make an attempt to succeed in the calssroom when mom and dad believe they are "too young" or "not ready". That mindset seeps down to the child, regardless of wether parents do in consciously or not, and the kid thinks he is not required to make the effort because they "can't". I think it is ridiculous to think that it is all the teacher's fault becuase she is a mean, rigid witch who expects too much of these precious babies. Most teachers do everything they can to reach the children they teach, but they DO need some help from home.
 
Lol, agendas are funny. Sometimes they stop us from seeing anything other than our point. Education involves family and the school. At least good education. But when one is looking at readiness, the school has had minimal involvement with the child. Luckily our assessors listen.
 
Sorry, but I don't have an "agenda" in this at all. I teach HIGH SCHOOL, so it has no bearing on what I do. Everyone here is saying how parents know so much better than teachers and how they are so much more in tune to what their kids need, so why is it so hard to believe that parents have a HUGE impact on a child's success ro lack theerof?? I think the whole "boys can't do it" and "teachers expect too much" bit is really just a big cop out. I don't know of any K teacher that subscribes to the "sit down and shut up" school of teaching. They won't get very far with most kids, boy or girl, that way. Heck, I don't do that in high school. I work HARD to keep my kids interested and engaged. I don't teach more than 30 min at a time without stopping to DO something in 10th grade! In K DD's teacher would teach for about 20 min, with the children participating, and then do an activity of some sort begfire pencil and paper work on the subject. That is much how her 1st grade class is run this year. Most teachers use carefully thought out lessons to meet students where they are. But by the same token it is very difficult to convince a child that learning has value when that is not what they are being taught at home. It is also next to impossible to get a child to make an attempt to succeed in the calssroom when mom and dad believe they are "too young" or "not ready". That mindset seeps down to the child, regardless of wether parents do in consciously or not, and the kid thinks he is not required to make the effort because they "can't". I think it is ridiculous to think that it is all the teacher's fault becuase she is a mean, rigid witch who expects too much of these precious babies. Most teachers do everything they can to reach the children they teach, but they DO need some help from home.

Actually, MOST teachers on these threads I've read over the years have concurred with waiting instead of rushing a child into K.
 


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