"Red Shirt" Vent

[Colleen27]

Why on earth? I think both are important.They can always wait a year to go to college if they are not ready to leave home. A child who is bored and fustrated with school in second grade is likely going to end up not liking school much, and that isn't likely to magically change when they get to high school. I have seen it many times in the students I teach. Bright kids who got borted early on and never found joy in learning. Most of them want to get as far away from any kind of school as possible when they graduate. For that matter, waht is to say a child is not mature enough for college at 17? I went at 17 and was absolutely mature enough. How can you secide how mature a child will be at 17 when they are 5 anyway??

Sitting out a year greatly reduces the chances that they'll actually go, though, and interferes with eligibility for a lot of merit-based aid. I don't share the previous poster's feeling about making sure the kids are 18 before starting college - one of mine will start at 17 and another less than a month after turning 18 - but I do worry some about the fact that eventually I will be sending my minor daughter off to whatever college she chooses, potentially hundreds or thousands of miles away. Maturity aside, 18 is a milestone in our society and I do think it is beneficial for kids to still have adult supervision/guidance as they get the first experiences of some of the freedoms turning 18 allows.

 

[herdtoDisney]

EXACTLY!!! So you can totally see where we anti-redshirters are coming from...It is not a good situation all around so it should not be allowed. If it was not allowed, then this wouldn't happen and all could be happy.

Not everyone feels like you do-while I chose to not red-shirt my kids, I understand if others choose to, and I didn't find the age issue in middle school to be an issue. What has been more of an issue is really what kids bring into the school with them from the street, know what I mean? That's been the issue in my kids' schools, sadly enough, rather than the ages Maybe in areas where this is not such an issue, the age is moreso, I don't know...

 

[Mickey Fliers]

EXACTLY!!! So you can totally see where we anti-redshirters are coming from...It is not a good situation all around so it should not be allowed. If it was not allowed, then this wouldn't happen and all could be happy.

Except in my situation, the other children would have been exactly where they should be and I would have the child that was *too young*.

There will never be a true solution. Some kids are held back, some kids aren't ready, some kids are sent too early b/c Mom and Dad think they are geniuses, states have different cutoffs and people move. No true answers.

 

[Colleen27]

EXACTLY!!! So you can totally see where we anti-redshirters are coming from...It is not a good situation all around so it should not be allowed. If it was not allowed, then this wouldn't happen and all could be happy.

Well, everyone except kids who really aren't ready when the state cutoff says they should be. That was my whole point in posting about my son - it is MUCH harder to deal with the results of sending a kid that isn't ready than it is to deal with your kid having kids a year older in the classroom. I know, I've got one at each end. Even as one of the youngest in her class DD hasn't been affected in any way by the kids in her class who are older, but school has been a struggle for DS from day one because I enrolled him on time rather than going with my gut and holding him out a little longer.

 

[princessmom29]

It is important to my husband and myself that our children be 18 when they leave for college. I have seen enough 17 year olds who went off to college have complete and utter nightmare first years....several who either dropped out, had emotional issues, or had to move to much smaller schools. Of course, this can happen to anyone, but in OUR EXPERIENCE, it has always been the "younger" freshman.

Now, of course I care about my second grader. However, a bored second grader ( and mine is already 8) can easily be challenged and supplemented at home. In the OP's situation, the "older" child has very little bearing on the academic achievement of her own "young" child. She is just irritated b/c she doesn't want to hear how tall he is.

And for us, I am very, very thankful that my Sept. and Nov. birthday kids are the generally the oldest. We move every 2-3 years and in each state, the cutoffs are much different. If we had started my 7th grader when he was 4 and made the Dec. 1st cutoff (bday Nov. 18) he would now be the way youngest by over a year b/c the cutoff here is Sept. 1st. He would have been surrounded by much older children in Middle School. Not a situation I would have been thrilled with.

I still don't see it. Why is 18 some sort of magic number where all kids are suddenly mature enough to be on thier own when yesterday, when they were 17, they weren't??? Shouldn't it be based on the individual chilkd and not a number?? I just think that children should be given a chance to succeed rather than a parent automatically assuming they cannot. You can always hold a child back, but you canb NEVER get back that year you redshirted them.

Another poster mentioned merit based scholarships and wiating a year. Universities are NOT allowed to discriminate in awarding merit based scholarships to freshman who wait to attend school. I teach a large population of Mormon students who do a service project between high school and college. It is a 2 year commitment, and many of them still recieve merit based aid. Wiating a year should have NO bearing on that.

 

[princessmom29]

Not everyone feels like you do-while I chose to not red-shirt my kids, I understand if others choose to, and I didn't find the age issue in middle school to be an issue. What has been more of an issue is really what kids bring into the school with them from the street, know what I mean? That's been the issue in my kids' schools, sadly enough, rather than the ages Maybe in areas where this is not such an issue, the age is moreso, I don't know...

I think both are an issue most places. I teach in a school with a split population we have magnet type academic programs, and serve an inner city neighborhood. For the magnet kids, redshirted kids in the academic programs are much more likely to be the bored ones who act out in my class and cause disruptions, becuase they are older than almost everyone in the room. For the neighborhood kids (many of whom have failed mlutiple grades), age is not as much of an issue because it is not unusual to have 14 year olds and 17 year olds in freshman classes together. The issue here is more often the neighborhood dynamic they bring into the classroom.

 

[sam_gordon]

Hmmmm...the school could set a grade or age requirement for the tournament. Then, (based on many of the comments here), parents can either adhere to the requirement, or choose to have their child play up a grade, down a grade, at grade level, with another class, or in another school. Because as long as they are doing what they feel is best for their child, it really doesn't matter much what's "allowed" and if their decision will effect anyone else.

I'm sorry, I didn't explain it very well. There are four 1st grade classrooms. The four classes play each other. Kids can either play ball or be "cheerleaders".

I *THINK* 2nd grade does the same thing. There's no "playing up" option. If the kids are in 1st grade, they can play.

 

[sam_gordon]

There will never be a true solution. Some kids are held back, some kids aren't ready, some kids are sent too early b/c Mom and Dad think they are geniuses, states have different cutoffs and people move. No true answers.

That's what I was trying to say. You can't come up with a blanket policy (even if you could come up with a rule that ALL school systems/sports programs would use across the country). Some kids will need to be held back. Whether they have a LD, aren't emotionally "ready", or parents think their child will excel academically or athletically, I don't see how you can prevent "hold backs".

 

[mjkacmom]

Shouldn't it be based on the individual chilkd and not a number??.

Exactly - which is why I think it's up to the parents, who know their children's capabilities better than the new school. Just because a child makes the cut-off doesn't mean he or she is ready for school. My neighbor sent her dd to kindergarten on time, because she (just) made the cut-off, she didn't know her letters yet, and is now getting tutored in first grade, and she hates school. It is likely she will be held back this year, which is tough on kids who have already established friendships (and yes, there is a stigma attached, even at that age).

Most of mine are right in the middle, age-wise, and I've never had an problem arise due to older kids being in their grade (maybe because they are so academically and athletically gifted? )

 

[Iwant2BAprincess]

Some of you may remember me from previous threads about "should I start Kindergarten or hold them back", and it is no secret that I am a proponent of sending kids to school rather than holding them back unless there is a developmental reason. Just my opinion, yours may differ.

So this week I am sitting in my son's basketball practice (the 2nd grade clinic) with a mother who is going on and on about how worried she is because her son is so tall and thin compared to the other kids. She even said something about how he was in a play at school and when they all lined up on stage at the end he looked like "an Amazon kid" (her words not mine) compared to the other kids.

I happen to remember this kid, because when he was in our public school he was a grade ahead of my son, but now they are in the same grade. Conversation continues, and I find out that she pulled him out of public school at the end of 2nd grade, and put him in 2nd grade again in the Catholic school because he's her "baby" (an only child) she thought he was "too young". He is an October birthday, my son is November, a year later.

I know I'm a little hyper-sensitive to this because I have a November-birthday son that I sent to school, but she seriously annoyed me. Of course your kid is "so tall" compared to the other kids in the 2nd grade basketball clinic...HE'S A YEAR OLDER THAN THEY ARE!

While I realize that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her child, I reserve the right to be annoyed. I'm annoyed at the fact that now this kid (currently a head taller than everyone else in the group) will be playing sports against kids a year younger than he is, and at the fact that the mother just wouldn't stop about how her son is "so tall".

Just wanted to vent. Thanks for listening.

We have been pondering the same thing..I have 2 DS's playing basketball. My boys are 19 months apart but 2 grade levels due to how the birthdays fall. Somehow a kid that is the same age as my older one is playing against my younger son not my older one-turns out he was held back a year so he is a grade level behind despite his age. Programs really should work off of birthdates-these are uncontrollable no school grade levels.-ok vent over.

 

[princessmom29]

Exactly - which is why I think it's up to the parents, who know their children's capabilities better than the new school. Just because a child makes the cut-off doesn't mean he or she is ready for school. My neighbor sent her dd to kindergarten on time, because she (just) made the cut-off, she didn't know her letters yet, and is now getting tutored in first grade, and she hates school. It is likely she will be held back this year, which is tough on kids who have already established friendships (and yes, there is a stigma attached, even at that age).

Most of mine are right in the middle, age-wise, and I've never had an problem arise due to older kids being in their grade (maybe because they are so academically and athletically gifted? )

I know no one is going to what to hear this, but as I teacher I find that while most parents simply want to do what is best for their child, many parents are NOT a completely objective judge of wether thier child is ready for x or y. As the parent we all (myself included) have biases and preconcieved notions about our children. I'm sorry, but it is true. Some parents think that thier child cannot possibly be ready for K becuase they are not the biggest and strongest in the class yet. They project that onto their children. Some insist on pushing a 4 year old into early entry becuase they are just sure they are a genuis. Most parents fall somewhere in the middle, but still have some idea of where their child "should" be that is not absolutely accurate. This is wher entrance evaluations can be helpfiul. DD's school does a comprehensive enterance exam, and observes the child several times in social situations to determine placement. They discuss that results with the parents, get thier feelings on where the child is, and come to a placement decision. They ask that all children be evaluated once by age 5 if you plan to send them to our school in K. Obviously, not all parents do this, but it is the recommended course of action.

 

[brymolmom]

Except in my situation, the other children would have been exactly where they should be and I would have the child that was *too young*.

There will never be a true solution. Some kids are held back, some kids aren't ready, some kids are sent too early b/c Mom and Dad think they are geniuses, states have different cutoffs and people move. No true answers.

"too young" how?? Someone's gotta be the youngest...Was your child way below the average in terms of maturity, academics, motor skills? I find that most parents who redshirt usually give the generic 'not ready' response and when I try to find out an actual reason - there really isn't one. Most older 4 and 5 year olds are actually ready (which is why school has traditionally started then) - they need to be just as mature and 'ready' as any 4 or 5 year old would be - so unless they're way below average, they are ready. And also many parents I know have decided well before the child is near age that they are holding back - obviously just to have the biggest and brightest before they even know their child (I've spoken with pregnant women due in the fall that have already made the decision).

The fairest, although not ideal, solution is to keep kids 12 months in age span, unless there is a documented delay that is being worked on with counselors and/or doctors. Take the parents' "my kid is not ready" or "my kid is a genius" out of the equation. And, yes, there will be the occassional child who really needs to be held back (which could end up being a younger or older child)...and the occassional child who needs a lot of extra challenge, but it will be natural and way fewer and farther between then letting the older kids in the same classroom with the 4 year olds.

 

[princessmom29]

"too young" how?? Someone's gotta be the youngest...Was your child way below the average in terms of maturity, academics, motor skills? I find that most parents who redshirt usually give the generic 'not ready' response and when I try to find out an actual reason - there really isn't one. Most older 4 and 5 year olds are actually ready (which is why school has traditionally started then) - they need to be just as mature and 'ready' as any 4 or 5 year old would be - so unless they're way below average, they are ready. And also many parents I know have decided well before the child is near age that they are holding back - obviously just to have the biggest and brightest before they even know their child (I've spoken with pregnant women due in the fall that have already made the decision).

The fairest, although not ideal, solution is to keep kids 12 months in age span, unless there is a documented delay that is being worked on with counselors and/or doctors. Take the parents' "my kid is not ready" or "my kid is a genius" out of the equation. And, yes, there will be the occassional child who really needs to be held back (which could end up being a younger or older child)...and the occassional child who needs a lot of extra challenge, but it will be natural and way fewer and farther between then letting the older kids in the same classroom with the 4 year olds.

great post. I really wish that this would be the way it works, a strict 12 month age sp[an unless test results show a need to do otherwise.

 

[brymolmom]

Exactly - which is why I think it's up to the parents, who know their children's capabilities better than the new school. Just because a child makes the cut-off doesn't mean he or she is ready for school. My neighbor sent her dd to kindergarten on time, because she (just) made the cut-off, she didn't know her letters yet, and is now getting tutored in first grade, and she hates school. It is likely she will be held back this year, which is tough on kids who have already established friendships (and yes, there is a stigma attached, even at that age).

Most of mine are right in the middle, age-wise, and I've never had an problem arise due to older kids being in their grade (maybe because they are so academically and athletically gifted? )

I hate hearing of situations like your neighbor...this is exactly the type of situation that redshirting perpetuates and makes worse. If she was in a classroom without kids of such a large age span, it is very possible she wouldn't have struggled as much. With more younger kids in the classroom they would be more along the same abilities instead of having kids doing first grade work in the same class with this child who obviously needed help with basic K work.

I feel for that situation...and unfortunately her story will likely make more people decide TO redshirt, when, in fact, that will only make this type of situation worse.

 

[jpeka65844]

I'm annoyed at the fact that now this kid (currently a head taller than everyone else in the group) will be playing sports against kids a year younger than he is, and at the fact that the mother just wouldn't stop about how her son is "so tall".

Just wanted to vent. Thanks for listening.

I have a friend whose hubby is a f'ball coach at a very competitive high school in my hometown. Winning is kinda in their blood.....They held back their son from K for THIS EXACT REASON. I could've smacked her.

 

[Mickey Fliers]

"too young" how??

In our situation, my DH is active duty Navy and we move every 2-3 years. My oldest son is already in his 4th school in 4 different states. School admission dates varied in these states from Dec. 31st (MD where we lived when he entered K) to Sept. 1st (here in FL where he is now in 7th grade). If he had started K when he was eligible in MD, he would now be in a situation where he could be a full 15 months younger than other children that also started when they were eligible here in FL.

We didn't start him when he was eligible and effectively "red-shirted" him. Not b/c he wasn't mature or bright enough, but I could forsee a situation in which a very late Dec. 31st cut-off would not be uniform in each state we might live in. Now, in middle school he is the same age as all the other children. So, unless you can miraculously make every state requirements the same, this is what worked best for us.

That being said, I have a son who is a July bday and started school "on time" in Maine with an Oct. 15th cut-off. I also have a DD with a Sept. 2 bday who won't be allowed to even start pre-k here in FL b/c the cut-off is the first. Can't win for trying!

 

[Mickey Fliers]

I have a friend whose hubby is a f'ball coach at a very competitive high school in my hometown. Winning is kinda in their blood.....They held back their son from K for THIS EXACT REASON. I could've smacked her.

I would never "red-shirt" for a ridiculous reason like sports. But I can't say that there aren't situations where it might be the best course of action.

 

[mjkacmom]

I hate hearing of situations like your neighbor...this is exactly the type of situation that redshirting perpetuates and makes worse. If she was in a classroom without kids of such a large age span, it is very possible she wouldn't have struggled as much. With more younger kids in the classroom they would be more along the same abilities instead of having kids doing first grade work in the same class with this child who obviously needed help with basic K work.

I feel for that situation...and unfortunately her story will likely make more people decide TO redshirt, when, in fact, that will only make this type of situation worse.

Actually, there were no red-shirted kids in the classroom - she was just the youngest who made the cut-off. I actually had the opposite problem from K - 3, where there were too many kids who didn't know what they needed to know coming into kindergarten, so the teacher had to slow down (all of mine were good readers going in). However, I'd be more concerned about someone who couldn't keep up, than one (like mine) who were advanced.

Two of mine acted out because they were bored, and the other three were fine with having more free time when they got their work done. The two bored kids learned that being bored was no excuse to misbehave - read a book quietly. In the lower grades, there is always going to be a huge discrepency between the children's academic abilities. However, when a child is close to the cut-off, but is behind where he should be academically in kindergarten, I feel it's best to wait.

 

[Colleen27]

I know no one is going to what to hear this, but as I teacher I find that while most parents simply want to do what is best for their child, many parents are NOT a completely objective judge of wether thier child is ready for x or y. As the parent we all (myself included) have biases and preconcieved notions about our children. I'm sorry, but it is true. Some parents think that thier child cannot possibly be ready for K becuase they are not the biggest and strongest in the class yet. They project that onto their children. Some insist on pushing a 4 year old into early entry becuase they are just sure they are a genuis. Most parents fall somewhere in the middle, but still have some idea of where their child "should" be that is not absolutely accurate. This is wher entrance evaluations can be helpfiul. DD's school does a comprehensive enterance exam, and observes the child several times in social situations to determine placement. They discuss that results with the parents, get thier feelings on where the child is, and come to a placement decision. They ask that all children be evaluated once by age 5 if you plan to send them to our school in K. Obviously, not all parents do this, but it is the recommended course of action.

While I see what you're saying, I don't think most parents are at the extremes and there is only so much an evaluation can tell you. My son did fine in pre-K and his teacher saw no reason to recommend he have another year before starting K. I was the only one who thought he wasn't ready for that transition from part-time, half-day pre-K to the full-day, academically-focused kindergarten of the district we were living in at the time.

We weren't halfway through the kindergarten year the first time his teacher brought up the possibility of holding him back because he was falling behind academically and struggling socially/behaviourally. So much for everyone telling me how ready he was.

 

[Colleen27]

Most older 4 and 5 year olds are actually ready (which is why school has traditionally started then) - they need to be just as mature and 'ready' as any 4 or 5 year old would be - so unless they're way below average, they are ready.

Traditionally the early grades had less academic pressure than now, though. Kindergarten in the district we were in when my kids started school is no different than 1st grade in terms of the structure of the day, and there are plenty of perfectly normal, average 4 and 5 year olds who aren't ready for the expectations of a full school day. And the school policy is to "strongly recommend" retention for any student not reading on grade level at the end of kindergarten. Plenty of kids aren't developmentally ready to read at 5.

When I was a high schooler in honor society I tutored 1st and 2nd graders who were struggling with reading but didn't qualify for formal special ed; none of those kids would have passed kindergarten now.