Recent & Rumored Changes Turning Me Off

[FortWildernessLoopy]

Perhaps that is what they are trying to accomplish, maybe they no longer want my family of four and extended family to plan yearly trips to WDW...

Last night, my hubby and I had a long sit down over our APs and whether or not to renew next year. We are both hourly wage earners and relatively local. We are child free and both former CMs. We have been passholders since before they allowed out of state passholders to be a thing. (I am curious if they are going to retire out of state passholders when they bring them back). We have the weekday select since we do not have weekends off and, as mentioned, no kids so we can go when the parks are less busy and hot.

I won't go over all the changes in the last five years because everyone here already knows them. When we were talking, it seems the most fun we have is when we head over to Fort Wilderness or a resort for a few days and resort hop, go to Disney Springs, hang out at the campsite, go to the Contemporary for dinner, watch the fireworks from the beach, etc. Going into the parks is just a lot less fun than it used to be (and I'm not talking price). We kept our passes steady and even renewed when the parks were shut down. We had no breaks at all in our APs. I think we have all been very patient during the pandemic but learning they have used this 'opportunity' to make some of the changes more permanent is disheartening. I HATE the reservation system and doing away with a lot of the live entertainment.

We got UOAPs during the shut down, too, because we had never been. We'll use those up and definitely will not renew them because it's just not for us, but getting rid of our Disney APs will be hard, I think. We are still back and forth, but I think we may actually lose them this year. It's starting to be more hassle than fun and if we enjoy the things we do not have to pay to go to more, then why not just do that instead?

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

This stuff is really dismaying. I think I'm done with the WDW rat race, and will instead get our fix at the OG - Disneyland - which has much better versions of these rides anyway.

YES - I know they're going to have some version of Genie+, but it's a much more punk rock, go with the flow feel that doesn't monetize every step of the way or require too much advance planning. Plus the weather is always much better!

 

[johnkerryP]

There will be a family in Disney next year. That family will be staying at a Disney resort, they Ubered from the airport, and bought a week's worth of tickets with Genie+ add on and tickets for an after hours party. They may have no idea about what Disney used to be like 10 years ago, and they don't care. Could be their first trip. Maybe they are not driving from Georgia for an annual vacation, but flew in from somewhere overseas for once in a lifetime trip. Maybe they couldn't care less about vintage attractions but really really love Star Wars. Maybe they are on their phone all the time anyway, so using more apps just feels natural. Maybe there is an absent, workaholic parent trying to buy their child's love with "the best vacation money can buy". Maybe dad is an executive for a tech firm and has heard good things about the great, one-of-a-kind experiences and food Disney offers these days (not like the "old days").

Maybe this family is totally different than your family. But Disney is banking on that fact that they will come, and they will fill the park just the same.

Sure. Minus the snark about "buying love"

 

[empedocles]

I often wonder what Walt would have felt about all of these experiences that cost families so much $$$. The after hours parties for the holidays alone could cost a family of 4 $1000 Christmas week on top of their park admission! Wasn't he all about NOT "nickel and diming" his guests? How did they go this far off the rails?

In Walt's day, you had to buy tickets for rides. That's not "nickel & diming"?

 

[Chuck96]

In Walt's day, admission prices were $1 per adult and 50 cents per child. That would be $10.20 and $5.10 today. Current tickets are $129 day.

So...yeah. This feels a little like nickel and diming.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

In Walt's day, you had to buy tickets for rides. That's not "nickel & diming"?

No because you weren't gouged at the gate and in the parking lot.

 

[revdon64]

Disney doesn’t want fewer people. But they do want them paying a lot more.

Not so sure that anyone is factoring in staffing cost. Fewer guests means decreased need for CMs. If Disney can squeeze even the same income out of fewer guests and saves millions on decreased staffing, they're ahead of the game. If they can increase income AND reduce staff... Jackpot!

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

Not so sure that anyone is factoring in staffing cost. Fewer guests means decreased need for CMs. If Disney can squeeze even the same income out of fewer guests and saves millions on decreased staffing, they're ahead of the game. If they can increase income AND reduce staff... Jackpot!

They’ve unquestionably been doing that. That’s why housekeeping has been virtually absent and expensive entertainment yet to come back - but those expensive after hours parties and the like are on!

 

[Bearval]

Not so sure that anyone is factoring in staffing cost. Fewer guests means decreased need for CMs. If Disney can squeeze even the same income out of fewer guests and saves millions on decreased staffing, they're ahead of the game. If they can increase income AND reduce staff... Jackpot!

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that with all of the price increases over the years and every year the staff is still underpaid.

 

[MissSha]

In Walt's day, you had to buy tickets for rides. That's not "nickel & diming"?

no sure I understand your point?

 

[kbelle8995]

Join the Club.

 

[crazycatlady]

It's an astonishing situation. I started working on a plan B vacation yesterday if we decide it's best for us to cancel. I'm not really sad either.
I feel like they are draining a good deal of vacation fun away. It's good for me to remember I have other options.

I'm right there with you! We went to Universal in May and bought annual passes at that time because it was a long vacation and they don't sell 10 day tickets. We ended up having such a blast that we had decided to split our December Disney trip with Universal before that vacation was even done. Now with everything that is going on with Disney, I have two trips planned: one with a Disney/Universal split and one that is completely at Universal. As much as I love the Disney parks, you just can't beat staying at a deluxe Universal resort for $204 a night (AP rate), getting Express Pass for free and having the ability to walk to the parks. The food is usually cheaper, too. I just can't justify spending an extra $2000 (at least) to stay at a moderate resort for 7 nights and pay the outlandish price of 7 day park hoppers when Disney is offering so much less than they used to before COVID. Universal has brought back all of their restaurants, shows, entertainment, etc.....why can't Disney? With all the money we have spent on Disney vacations the past 30 years, I feel really undervalued and it makes me incredibly sad.

 

[Darcy03231]

I've been disillusioned since about 2015. Prior to that we were yearly (and sometimes 2-3x a year) visitors. WDW has now become an add on to other vacations. Last time I went was in 2017. We took a cruise and DH wanted to see Pandora so we did a 2 day trip at the end of the cruise.

I did have a trip booked for last fall with my neighbor and her two young children, but we canceled due to COVID. Still haven't rebooked yet, and as of right now neither one of us has any desire to book. Original trip was on-site with character dining every day, BBB, etc. When we finally get around to booking, most likely we will be staying off-site. We'll probably book a few character meals (if they come back), and BBB (it it comes back), but there's really no incentive to stay on property anymore.

 

[crazycatlady]

Walt Disney World was a "for-profit entity" when theme park admission cost $3.50 in 1971. (About $24 today.)

Wat Disney World was a "for-profit entity" when they built Epcot in 1982, Disney-MGM Studios in 1989, and Disney's Animal Kingdom in 1998.

Wat Disney World was a "for-profit entity" when they opened their first Moderate Resort in 1988 and first Value Resort in 1994 in order to make onsite stays more affordable. (Instead, we get a boutique hotel that costs a family of 4 at least $3000 per night!)

Wat Disney World a "for-profit entity" when they regularly offered "buy 4, get 3 free" hotel, ticket, and food discounts in the 2000s.

Being a "for-profit entity" has nothing to do with it.

Supply-and-demand?

In pre-COVID years, how many times did the theme parks close because they were full? Almost never. Disney has tons of supply. This is not a supply-and-demand issue.

The first problem is that the parks are overcrowded because it's been 23 years (and counting) since WDW last added a theme park. (The previous longest gap was 11 years.) Meanwhile, U.S. population has increased by 20% and Disney has advertised heavily overseas, with International Guests now making up almost 20% of WDW visitors (pre-COVID).

Instead of building more theme parks to take into account that WDW's attendance has grown by 40% in 23 years, Disney's corporate leadership looks for ways to make the parks even more crowded so they can charge even more for the FastPass+ replacement, so they can charge even more for specially-ticketed Halloween and Christmas events, so they can optimize operations, so they can improve "yield."

The second problem is that Disney corporate leadership speaks in phrases like this:

We took the opportunity to revisit our legacy operations to improve the yield​

We are not "yield." We are not profit centers to be maximized. We are not ATMs to withdraw cash from.

We are paying customers who want to be treated as if we are buying the most expensive theme park vacation in the entire World because we already are!

Walt Disney World is the most expensive theme park to ever exist. Start treating us as if we've already paid for a premium service, rather than expecting us to dig even deeper in our pockets to pay for front-of-the-line access to fix a problem that Disney created by not building another theme park for nearly a quarter-of-a-century.

Treat your paying customers the way you would like to be treated.

One thousand times, AMEN!!!!

 

[Newbie500]

I wonder if due to all of the changes and increased costs associated with going back to the parks, maybe attendance will continue to be lower even after the health related restrictions are lifted.

 

[disneyseniors]

I wonder if due to all of the changes and increased costs associated with going back to the parks, maybe attendance will continue to be lower even after the health related restrictions are lifted.

Just my thoughts on this: I feel that the main reason disney is so crowded is because of the pent up demand for vacationing. People remember the wonderful times at disney. So they booked up all the rooms, plus the 50th celebration brings alot of people in.
After the pent up travel is diminished, I feel that attendance will be lower. It feels different this time with all the cuts and upcharging. I know our family of 10 (3 families and kids) won't be giving disney any more of our money in the future.
Maybe if the WDWco. cares about the guest experience again and brings back all the free things we used to have, then a big Maybe.

 

[revdon64]

It's an astonishing situation. I started working on a plan B vacation yesterday if we decide it's best for us to cancel. I'm not really sad either.
I feel like they are draining a good deal of vacation fun away. It's good for me to remember I have other options.

Let me offer you an alternative - Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg, Tennessee. Great Smokey Mountain National Park, Dollywood and Dollywood Splash Country (both beautiful parks), dinner shows, tons of attractions like Ripley's Aquarium of the Smokies, southern hospitality... and it's a whole lot less expensive than Disney. A 7-night stay in a beautiful log cabin with a view of the Smokies for my family of six was just under $3500. Honestly, my kids didn't miss Disney at all.

 

[jrsharp21]

Let me offer you an alternative - Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg, Tennessee. Great Smokey Mountain National Park, Dollywood and Dollywood Splash Country (both beautiful parks), dinner shows, tons of attractions like Ripley's Aquarium of the Smokies, southern hospitality... and it's a whole lot less expensive than Disney. A 7-night stay in a beautiful log cabin with a view of the Smokies for my family of six was just under $3500. Honestly, my kids didn't miss Disney at all.

Agree with this. We went to Pigeon Forge a few years ago for a big baseball tournament and we had an absolute blast. Rented a cabin in the mountain and then drove down to the tourist stuff each day. Dollywood exceeded my expectations. Absolutely loved it. The alpine coasters, The Island, the go carts, the museums and other attractions. It was a good time. I was telling my wife the other day that maybe we go back and skip a year of Disney World.

 

[popy]

More people means more ticket, merchandise, food, and beverage sales.

More people means more efficient use of WDW's infrastructure.

More people means higher prices for paid FP+.

Disney definitely wants more people.

Disney easily could find a breaking point, if that was their goal. You want a breaking point? Double theme park ticket prices. That will "break" a lot.

you loose sight the fewer people the fewer labor it will take, Disney is very labor intensive., very exspensive and it has been that way for some time.
so the idea is reduce the flow, cut the employees, save the labor, make more money. at expense. of the labor and the guest.
happy labor day! its the bottom line. price vs. cost.

 

[Nabas]

you loose sight the fewer people the fewer labor it will take, Disney is very labor intensive., very exspensive and it has been that way for some time.
so the idea is reduce the flow, cut the employees, save the labor, make more money. at expense. of the labor and the guest.
happy labor day! its the bottom line. price vs. cost.

Theme parks don’t work that way.

Most costs are fixed, regardless of attendance. Whether there are 50,000 or 60,000 people in the park, all attractions, kiosks, dining venues, etc. need to be staffed and operating.

Yes, knowing that there will be 50,000 vs. 60,000 allows for some optimization but, incrementally, it’s not much.

Think of it this way. An extra 10,000 people represents an extra $1 million for Disney. How many more Cast Members are needed to handle that extra 10,000 and what will they cost Disney? (Perhaps $300 per Cast Member per day?) The incremental margin on these extra 10,000 Guests will be higher than the first 50,000, who are bearing the load of the fixed costs.

Again, keep in mind that theme park costs are relatively fixed. More crowded theme parks mean higher margins.

The goal is not to reduce attendance. It’s to get those who are willing to pay more for a better experience to actually pay more.