Recent Budget Threads and SAHMs

[sara74]

Wow, I just read this whole thread from the beginning and after a long day's work as well!

I, too, am one who can't seem to keep away from the very threads that give me heartburn...maybe it is because I have felt so judged by others that I am always looking to see what other's are thinking. Which then makes me wonder, why does it matter so much to me what others are thinking?

I am a choose-to-work mom. I found a career that I love when I was only 15 and worked my first job in a dental office. I was lucky enough to be able to put myself through college and dental school and still love my career now. I am lucky enough to be able to afford childcare (as our center puts it we are a childcare center, not a daycare. We do not care for days here, just for children) and still bring home a great income. That is not the case for so many women (and/or men) My SIL could not make enough $ to break even working at a bank so she is staying home. We'll have one whopping bill for childcare next year with a 4 yo, 2 yo and infant, but when DD starts K it will get less expensive.

DH and I have just made the choice for me to cut from 3 to 2 days in January...I'll still be in dentistry and able to pick up more days when the kids are in school more, but I'll be home more for now. This choice came from DH having an increase in income that we could either spend, or use to offset a decrease on my part. Taking years off entirely isn't an option for me - who wants a dentist that hasn't done a filling in 5 years? So does working 15 hours a week make me a quasi-SAHM? When have I crossed the imaginary line between WOHM and SAHM? What really intrigues me is this - Am I really that unusual to be able to have a part time career? Are so many careers that inflexible? And isn't that a societal problem as a whole?

Shouldn't we, as a country, be striving for a system where quality childcare is more affordable, where careers can be more accomodating and where the choices are more than just working or staying at home? Is it truly that black and white or could there be more people with shades of grey in the middle? I guess this relates back to the OP's question in that couldn't the people making such financial sacrifices to stay at home find some middle ground between the "letting other people raise their children" and the brink of financial ruin faced by some who stay home full time?

And if we do strive for this middle ground, how do we get to that place? Are there other systems out there (Europe, Australia) that are more family friendly in general? Is this WOHM vs. SAHM argument a uniquely American debate?

Sorry for the novel, I'm not even sure if I'm making sense it's so late!

 

[Brooknwdw]

Okay..I will throw this out there...an observation...

during the school year there is a pretty good sized group of kids (this is a K-5th school my kids go to) who..after being at school for 7 1/2 hours already..have to STAY till 5PM in an after school paid day care type program.

Then take the bus back home..these kids aren't getting home till 5:30 pm or later and probably got on the bus that morning at 7AM. That is at least 10 hours a day away from home.

I sub at the school & when I am leaving with my kids at 3:15, I always get a lump in my throat when I see them on the playground.

I am NOT judging their parents, but I do wonder where they are & I feel sorry for these kids. Maybe they are all working but I just wonder if its worth it.

 

[Belle5]

It drives me crazy when someone consders a college degree a waste because a woman choses to stay at home. Education is a journey. I drive my children to soccer, violin, and dance does it make it a waste if they do not become professional athletes or performers?

:

I agree! My girlfriend (with six kids) felt that she and her DH had to pay her parents back for her college education because they were so angry that she wasn't "using it" by staying home with her children. She and her husband did pay it back with the agreement that her parents would never bring the subject up again. It was a huge sacrifice for them to pay it back but they are happy they did.
I just don't understand why the parents looked at the situation they way they did. How do they know she won't be left a widow and need to support herself or the family at some point in her life? Some people are just so harsh...

 

[noodleknitter]

How horrid. An education is never "wasted."

 

[punkin]

What really intrigues me is this - Am I really that unusual to be able to have a part time career? Are so many careers that inflexible? And isn't that a societal problem as a whole?

Shouldn't we, as a country, be striving for a system where quality childcare is more affordable, where careers can be more accomodating and where the choices are more than just working or staying at home? Is it truly that black and white or could there be more people with shades of grey in the middle?

Yes, society as a whole needs to make changes. Women's work at home is not valued at all. Raising children (whether your own or someone else's at daycare) is severely underpaid.

As far as part time work is concerned...I am a lawyer who worked part time for 2 years (I just quit last month) It started out 3 days a week 9-3, while the kids were at school. Pretty soon, it shot up to 8:30-4:30 (my youngest loved the afterschool program) every day. That was considered part-time because the full time attorneys in my office stayed until, at least 7. This, BTW, was a much lower-pressure general practice office. One high-powered firm I worked for in NY had me working 'till 3 am at least once a week (this was pre kids).

Sorry, this is OT, but I find it interesting that women are snapping at each other because their choices are severely limited and it does come to being black and white. I am sure that the women who are able to work, have far better child-care available than the ones who chose to stay home. They may also have husbands who help around the house. I don't. When I quit full time work 7 years ago, my DH worked at a Wall St. firm with crazier hours than I had.)

I think good quality child care goes a long way towards relieving any guilt felt by WOHMs and showing SAHMs that there are other options than staying home. Unfortunately, our society does not place any importance on providing good childcare and therefore "wastes" the education dollars spent on the women who ultimately decide to stay home wiith their children, giving up 20 or so years of a possibly productive career. (I don't mean education is a waste, but since the government subsidizes education, I wonder if it is worth it economically)

 

[marcyinPA]

Yes money is extremely tight --- but its only money-- these years with my kids are priceless.

AMEN! This is exactly how my Dh and I feel. I've been home for 11 years, and I don't regret one minute of it. I'm not sure I ever want to go back to work full-time. My dh has a secure job with benefits, but doesn't have a great salary. We've managed to make it...even after two lay-offs in the past 12 years! We really never go without, however human nature is such that sometimes we think we want or need things that we don't. Do I get jealous over our friends' new cars and big huge houses? Yes, sometimes. But, there is a price to pay to have those things, and I'm not willing to make the sacrifices that they've made to have what they have. Even with money being tight, we prioritize our wants/needs....so for us, a family vacation every year, or every other year, is a priority. We scrimp and save and cut expenses in other areas in order to have a week together as a family (at WDW or otherwise!). But, we DON'T have it all...and that's our choice!!

I did decide in March to begin sub. teaching for our school district, and in September this year, I'll be teaching pre-school at our church. The pre-school job is only 6 hours a week, and subbing is so flexible. I can say no when I want to, and pick and choose my days and schools. This way, I'm making a little $, and I'm still able to volunteer at school, clean my house, pick the kids up from school, etc.....those are the things that are important to me!

 

[MrsPete]

I have a friend that is a SAHM of two children 6 and 8. I don't know exactly what her husband makes, but I guess it is a decent amount. She told me that she does not work because she would only make the mid 30's, and it woudn't be worth it.

However, on several occasions her telephone and electricity has been cut off, and they have filed for bankruptcy. Their problem is that they live beyond their means. They have expensive birthday parties for the kids, go out to eat (and get a sitter for the kids), don't clip coupons, she doesn't like to cook, and they eat on paper plates, etc. However, she rarely gets a new outfit and their furniture has been better days.

To answer your question, I think she just doesn't want to work, even part time. She likes to be able to volunteer at her child's school, go to lunch with friends, etc. She also has a great husband that helps a great deal with the housework.

Getting back to the original post, I think this is the type of person about whom the original poster was asking. I'm completely in favor of women who have choices working or staying at home, depending upon what best suits their family's needs . . . but people who can't keep the electricity turned on don't have choices! I don't know why she wouldn't get a job -- even if it would be "only" mid-30s.

 

[mjbaby]

When have I crossed the imaginary line between WOHM and SAHM? What really intrigues me is this - Am I really that unusual to be able to have a part time career? Are so many careers that inflexible? And isn't that a societal problem as a whole?

Shouldn't we, as a country, be striving for a system where quality childcare is more affordable, where careers can be more accomodating and where the choices are more than just working or staying at home? Is it truly that black and white or could there be more people with shades of grey in the middle? I guess this relates back to the OP's question in that couldn't the people making such financial sacrifices to stay at home find some middle ground between the "letting other people raise their children" and the brink of financial ruin faced by some who stay home full time?

And if we do strive for this middle ground, how do we get to that place? Are there other systems out there (Europe, Australia) that are more family friendly in general? Is this WOHM vs. SAHM argument a uniquely American debate?

I, too, am a self-employed, work-from-home parent and I can't even tell you how interesting it is to be neither here-nor-there with regards to this whole mommy war thing. I've been viewed with suspicion by both camps and, I have to say, it's so amusing. We as a society have become invested in having individuals' own ways of living their lives acknowledged as "right" that it's almost impossible to get anyone to admit that there may be more than one True Path.

I do think that the debate is "uniquely American". We're especially gifted at this kind of naval gazing and insistence on external validation. What we seem to miss is that, while we're busy sniping at each other about whose choices and arrangements are better, we're not working together to put pressure where it needs to be to make sure that all our children recieve the rights - appropriate education, medical care, access to food and proper housing, etc. - that they deserve. It's a lot easier for us to sling arrows back and forth at each other, after all, than to stand together in our differences and work for changes that would benefit everyone, no matter how they organize their families.

 

[MrsPete]

The only time I feel the "I don't want anyone else to raise my kids" is acceptable is when people other than the parents are having more of an influence on the child than the parents are. I'm talking about when I see situations where the kids are in daycare all day long and the parents only see them long enough to say goodnight and to take them to daycare the next day. Those situations bug me...there's no parent/child relationship building whatsoever with that.

Sadly, I've seen a few of these cases -- only a few, thankfully. But they have not all been children of working parents -- though that would be the stereotypical situation.

I personally know of two little girls who are being raised by NO ONE. One little girl lived in my grandmother's neighborhood. Her parents are out of the picture, and she lives with a grandmother, who allows her to just wander. She visits with different people, invites herself in for meals, hangs around until they tell her to go home. The mom of the other little girl has chosen to put her in EVERY possible club and activity: she goes to the Boys and Girls' Club, scouts, gymnastics, you name it. I've heard the child say, "My mom doesn't care about me -- she just wants to keep me out of the house." BOTH of these children are poorly behaved, and it's very obvious that they're just trying to attract attention from adults in any way they can. BOTH of these little girls would be better off in day care; if they were in day care, the provider might not "raise them" but at least she'd be providing supervision and some day-to-day consistancy.

As a high school teacher, I see LOTS of kids whose parents have quit raising them. MANY parents seem to think that once their sons and daughters are in high school -- and especially once they are old enough to drive -- that their job is finished. The average high school student today has way too much unsupervised time and way too little guidance from his parents. (Or maybe it was always like that and I just didn't know because my mom did keep a short leash on us, which was a good thing!)

And are you really taking into consideration the extra expenses it would take for a SAHP to become a parent who works outside the home?
It's easy to say "get a job"...not as easy to take into consideration all the factors that it will effect.

This is absolutely true -- it costs something to work (though I think some people estimate high to make the numbers skew in the direction they want them to go), and a woman who waits until she's literally hit rock bottom may find it difficult to start earning a paycheck. A wise SAHM will make sure she could work if the need ever arises -- it's just a matter of looking after oneself and one's family.

 

[seven dwarfs]

Just a little added thing here,

Someone who lives beyond their means is not going to fix the problem by getting a job and making more money. I have found that people like this continue to spend no matter what. It is a mind set. The more they make the more they spend. It is a different issue all together. I am the Mom of six. I work part time from my home as a hairdresser. My husband is home when I work. He has a plumbing company so can be more flexable. Money is always tight. We both could make more money going back in the work force and not being self employed. We wanted to be with the kids more so we choose this road. We always pay our main bills. We do not buy new cloths all the time. Going out to dinner is a big deal. Vaction is a big deal. I have jeans that have many years on them. It is just a choice. Everyone has to do what is right for their family. But people who can't budget money can't budget it anytime, even with more income. Just my two cents...

 

[MrsPete]

Taking years off entirely isn't an option for me . . . What really intrigues me is this - Am I really that unusual to be able to have a part time career? Are so many careers that inflexible?

I think your situation -- while very fortunate -- is unusual. I personally know only one mom who has a "part time career". Long story short: she has an advanced degree and a professional certification that few women possess; she had 15+ years with the company and was very valuable to them. When she decided to quit, her boss begged her to agree to work a reduced schedule instead -- it's a great situation for her. In her case (and I suspect this is typical for women who have managed to get themselves into a part-time career), she was able to do it only because she had already established herself in the company.

Most women -- no, make that most people -- aren't that valuable to their employers. While the work they do is important, they can be replaced. This is especially true if you're talking about low-wage jobs like Walmart workers. I know a couple other women who work part-time at low-level jobs, but I think it's very unusual for a woman to have a part-time career.

I'm a teacher, and we have many of the benefits of a part-time career. Obviously, teachers will never be able to really be part-time employees -- the students need the consistancy of the same person day-to-day -- but my work schedule matches my kids' school schedule. That's a great thing!

 

[Caitsmama]

The only time I feel the "I don't want anyone else to raise my kids" is acceptable is when people other than the parents are having more of an influence on the child than the parents are. I'm talking about when I see situations where the kids are in daycare all day long and the parents only see them long enough to say goodnight and to take them to daycare the next day. Those situations bug me...there's no parent/child relationship building whatsoever with that. My mom used run a daycare business from her home and she was very adamant about making sure the kids she watched were there no earlier than a certain time and were there no later than a certain time. She didn't want to raise someone else's kids..and she wanted the time to raise her own.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seems everyone wants to just jump over me cuz I said the same basic thing. Some people read into things just want they want to read.. I stated over and over, i have NO PROBLEM with working parents, My problem lies, when parents work 10 hrs a day and leave their kids in daycare/school after care- all day, then pick them up at 6pm, (after leaving at 7am) and then feed them supper, tuck them in bed and thats it.. 5 days a week. In MY opinion, that is not fair to the child. That is exactly what i meant!!!!!
To those who said i sounded offensive.. Hey, what can i say, read into it what you want, i am not going to keep defending my point of view, just remember, what is "offensive to you" might be just as others are thinking. And what you say could easily be "offensive to me".. Take it or leave it. That's what makes the world go round..
If you knew me in person, you would see i am the LAST one who personally attacks people or trys to hurt others!! If you read into my posts for more than what were intended, i am sorry.. really!
This is my honest opinion. I also NEVER said that the route of ALL misbehaved kids lies due to working parents.. jeez! However, with that being said,I am SURE that some kids would have turned out better mannered if they had a constant parent around! Operative word here is SOME kids.

So, Treboats, i am sorry if you are so offended of my posts! But, This is my honest true to myself opinion.. and from reading the following posts after mine on pages 8 & 9 , i am obviously not alone!

Sara74, Again, please read my above post.. Moms who work 2-3 days a week, or even 5 days a week are not my problem!!!!!!!!!!! My problem are moms or dads that work 5 days a week 10-12 hrs a week and see their kids for 2 hrs a day!!! That is what i am trying to say in all this mess!

Whew. Honestly..I AM a nice person!! I am a WORKING MOM - rasing a daughter!!

 

[MrsPete]

Women's work at home is not valued at all. Raising children (whether your own or someone else's at daycare) is severely underpaid.

Aren't we beyond the place where we think of raising children as "women's work at home"? My husband and I are genuinely partners in raising our children -- and looking around at my friends, I don't think that's unique.

Unfortunately, our society does not place any importance on providing good childcare and therefore

Again, this doesn't match what I see in my life. When my kids were younger, I found great day care for them. I felt good about where they were during the day. When I picked them up, they'd run to me with a big smile and lots to say about what they'd done. However, GOOD day care doesn't come cheap, and everyone can't afford it -- it's cost, not availability.

 

[MrsPete]

Someone who lives beyond their means is not going to fix the problem by getting a job and making more money. I have found that people like this continue to spend no matter what. It is a mind set. The more they make the more they spend. It is a different issue all together.

You make a good point here. Some people really do need more income, but MANY people just need to manage what they have more efficiently.

 

[barbarabini]

Yes, society as a whole needs to make changes. Women's work at home is not valued at all. Raising children (whether your own or someone else's at daycare) is severely underpaid.

As far as part time work is concerned...I am a lawyer who worked part time for 2 years (I just quit last month) It started out 3 days a week 9-3, while the kids were at school. Pretty soon, it shot up to 8:30-4:30 (my youngest loved the afterschool program) every day. That was considered part-time because the full time attorneys in my office stayed until, at least 7. This, BTW, was a much lower-pressure general practice office. One high-powered firm I worked for in NY had me working 'till 3 am at least once a week (this was pre kids).

Sorry, this is OT, but I find it interesting that women are snapping at each other because their choices are severely limited and it does come to being black and white. I am sure that the women who are able to work, have far better child-care available than the ones who chose to stay home. They may also have husbands who help around the house. I don't. When I quit full time work 7 years ago, my DH worked at a Wall St. firm with crazier hours than I had.)

I agree - I quit my firm too after the reduced hours ;> schedule. i was working part time for lawyers but full tinme for everyone else. As a litigator, i was scheduled for Mon- thurs but my motion days were every other week on fri which was necessitate a train into fed court or a two hour ride into south jersey. It was just too much. Its doable for some, but it just wasn't for me and my family.

 

[punkin]

Aren't we beyond the place where we think of raising children as "women's work at home"? My husband and I are genuinely partners in raising our children -- and looking around at my friends, I don't think that's unique.

I'm glad it works for you. It does not work for me. Maybe as a society we are moving in that direction, but we are not there yet. My DH does a lot more at home than his father did, but not nearly what I do. Additionally, my DH's work hours were astronomical. If he works 90 hour weeks and travels, can he really be expected to help out?

When my kids were younger, I found great day care for them. I felt good about where they were during the day. When I picked them up, they'd run to me with a big smile and lots to say about what they'd done. However, GOOD day care doesn't come cheap, and everyone can't afford it -- it's cost, not availability.

That's my point exactly. I bet if you polled the people on this board, you'd find that the ones who can work outside the home have good childcare. The ones who disparage "someone else raising their kids" simply could not get good child care or have seen bad child care in action for others.

On a personal note, when I was working I could afford any sort of child care and generally I had good luck with it. I worked for 6 years while my DD had live-in nannies. However, I went through a very hard time after my second DD was born finding anyone even barely adequate. It is not a matter of just cost.

 

[MrsPete]

If he works 90 hour weeks and travels, can he really be expected to help out?

My husband occasionally pulls a week or two like this. In fact, he's been working like a dog for the past two weeks, and he's leaving for a business trip on Sunday.

During those busy times, I don't expect him to do the laundry or cook, but I do expect him to be a dad. He expects it of himself too. No matter how busy he is, he'll eat a meal with the family -- even if it's just a quick breakfast -- or if he comes in after they're in bed, he'll go in and talk to them a little. Sure, he can't give them as much during those busy times at work, but he is never too busy to be their dad. The girls and I are very blessed to have him.

 

[gottaluvdis]

This makes perfect sense to me: you made your decision based upon the circumstances at hand rather than a generalized, "For the rest of my life, I will choose to _____".

It's kind of like when my husband and I chose to put our first daugther into private school. We knew it would be a financial sacrafice, but given our choices at that moment, it was the best option. We agreed that we'd reconsider every year when it was time to "re-up" for the next fall. For four years we chose to stay there; finally, the time came that we determined that it was time to leave -- what we were getting was no longer worth the cost. So we moved to public school. Every year -- even though we're happy with what our daughters are doing in school -- we still have a discussion: is this where we want to stay for next year? Is this still the best choice for our family?

This makes perfect sense to me and describes our decision making as well. The key is flexibility and accepting change. At different points in your child(ren)s lives, situations change. My working has changed over the years. DD9 was at a neighbors as an infant when I worked 4 days-week at a great job with great benefits (including stock options that later paid off handsomely because I stayed with the company until the end). I got a severance package after the company was bought and spent 6 months at home with DD when she was 4 (fully paid), which was wonderful. By then, she was at a day care center in pre-school, so I sent her there a couple of days a week to keep her spot and because she loved it.

I went back to work part-time, then full time, now back to part-time (1/2 days, not voluntarily) at my current company. I am now home every day when she gets home from school, however, and we've enjoyed this arrangement. She does, however, get antsy and needs after-school activities to thrive. During school she still goes to Boys and Girls club a few days a week to take things like dance and theater. She's currently in camp there and loves every minute. Even though I pick her up at 3:30 every day, she ends up bored after she gets home. DH's job has taken hits and our income is at the lowest it's been in a while. We're in the middle of re-assessing what we'll do next. This includes DH getting a new job and me increasing my hours (although I'm trying to find something for 6 -6.5 hours per day). During the next several years we feel it's important for me to be home after school (at least a few days a week) for DD as she gets ready to head to middle school. As many other posters have said, it seems more important to be around for those impressionable years when they can get into serious trouble. We'll see how that plays out.

 

[punkin]

My husband occasionally pulls a week or two like this. In fact, he's been working like a dog for the past two weeks, and he's leaving for a business trip on Sunday.

During those busy times, I don't expect him to do the laundry or cook, but I do expect him to be a dad. He expects it of himself too. No matter how busy he is, he'll eat a meal with the family -- even if it's just a quick breakfast -- or if he comes in after they're in bed, he'll go in and talk to them a little. Sure, he can't give them as much during those busy times at work, but he is never too busy to be their dad. The girls and I are very blessed to have him.

Yes. An ocasional week like that is fine, but I'm talking about EVERY week. My schedulke was not much better. I was working 8-8 (not including commute) every day and also had to travel for my job. In any event, it was an impossible situation (this was 7 years ago). He has since gotten a government job and I have been working part time on and off and we are all much happier for it (if a little poorer).

 

[sk!mom]

Am I really that unusual to be able to have a part time career? Are so many careers that inflexible? And isn't that a societal problem as a whole?
QUOTE]


I know several people who have made part time careers work for them. My pediatrician is a great example. She is also a good example of someone who has constantly reevaluated her situation. When her children were infants and toddlers, she worked three days a week. Once they were all in preschool and Kind., she switched to a full week but mornings only. Once they were all in school full time, she now works until 2:00 every day. There is another mom/pediatrician in the same office who waorks part time. I know several nurses who basically choose the number of days per week that they will work but keep it part time.


I do think that, as usual, more education tends to give you more choices.

As a teacher, I feel that I have a lot of balance. I've always been off when my kids were off and DD10 stayed with grandparents when she was a preschooler and I worked. My DS21 was in childcare, however.