Reasons for no gratuity in 2008 DDP???

[Dizserver]

Hmmm....interesting debate.

I understand that under the 2007 DDP, Disney paid servers gratuity on the perceived value of the TS meal, not on its actual total, right?

If so, take our dinner at Le Cellier in March. If its perceived value is only $26 on DDP, then the server would only get $5-6 tip. Our final bill would've been $104 and if we hadn't been on the plan, we would've tipped $15-20.

Not sure if I have my math right here, but that's a HUGE deal! If I were a server, I'd probably vote to drop it too! Sounds like Disney was stiffing and servers would rather trust guests to do the right thing rather than being bilked by their employer!

Or maybe I have it all wrong???


Denice T.
Olathe, KS

lol, you have it both right and wrong

There are Disney restaurants and "operating participants", each with their own rules. Le Cellier I believe is an operating participant, much like Wolfgang Puck, Raglan Road, Fulton's Crab House, Maya Grill, and most every World Showcase restaurant. It's kinda like the difference between Disney's Polynesian (disney owned hotel) and Swan and Dolphin (non disney owned).

For Disney-owned restaurants, the servers recieve an 18% gratuity exactly based on 18% of the food bill total before tax.

For operating participants, the server recieves a flat fee, agreed upon between Disney and the restaurant (which is not owned by Disney but nevertheless accepts DDP). Yes, this flat fee generally falls in the $5 per adult range, give or take, regardless of the meal price.

To further your point, I would expect a server at a high end restaurant un-owned by Disney will like the new plan rules of no flat fee grat. (However, these servers are technically employed by their respective employer/restaurant owner, not Disney). A server at a high end Disney-owned resturant is probably happy with 18% per person.

Here's a totally hypothetical example: Though this is absolutely not true of every DDP plan guest, but I would imagine many DDP guests have never tipped out of pocket on a $75+ per person meal before, and as such may think 18% is way too high no matter how good the service. Even as a server, I might think twice before leaving a $15-$20 tip per person. I'm not in that tax-bracket personally where I often eat high end fine dining, and Im not sure the average family using DDP is either. My dad would likely leave $5 on a $100 check. So, in practice, I could see the average of all tips on a $75-$100 meal being $10 - some will tip more and some much less, $10 average. This $10 is better for the non Disney employee who recieved flat fee of $5, but worse for Disney employee who recieved 18% gratuity of $15.

 

[Nancyg56]

Dropping the included tip (significantly reduces Disney's cash costs) and dropping the appetizers (reduces sharing and time spent in the restaurant) makes the plan more profitable and better allows Disney to continue offering free dining.

I understand that dropping the tip would better allow free dining to be offered, but there are never any guarantees that free dining will be offered and it is only offered for a very short time each year. For the rest of the year those purchasing the DDP are going to experience much hight costs to them unless they decide not to leave an 18% tip for the servers.

 

[annie1995]

Ok, I might be missing something here. I have not reviewed all of the info on the dining plan for next year. But with that being said, I am excited about paying my own tip!!! I really think the servers are gonna have to work harder for them!!!! I really don't understand why people who will be getting dining plan next year are complaining about the tip, its still saving you money, tip or no tip included. I don't know, but its just my opinion.

 

[Nancyg56]

I think WDW has been reading a lot of guests comments regarding the lack of good services because the servers are ensured with the automatically included gratuities. Most of you want the servers to earn their tips base on good services, right ?!! Stop and think about it for a second. I believe the people who want better services WON. Next year, we will still pay for the DDP, but the servers need to be very wary about their attitudes toward the diners.

I would disagree here. I think that Disney will say that they listened to the customer suggestions, but I don't see how this makes sense. There were some who begrudged the CM a guaranteed tip becasue they believed that the level of service would be lower, there were many who experienced excellent service overall. Now Disney can say that the price of the DDP has been increase by a lot becasue people were unhappy to include a tip that cost the nothing but the cost of a plan. Now those happy campers can be grateful that the plan will no longer include a tip and the cost of said plan will be decreased by $1 while OOP costs will increase so that those people can determine how much a CM will receive.

I think that between the "too much food" talk and the "potential bad service" discussion Disney can pretty much lay this on anyone else but their need to maximize profit. I don't have a problem with the change, I just think it is nonsense that Disney effectively raised prices in response to customer requests to pay more money for less product.

 

[Tricia1972]

JIMinMIA stated his point so eloquently and I agree with him.

We are not the big winners in this.

Our costs went up.

We pay the tip out of our own pocket now. We pay for the plan and now we pay for the tip on top of that.

Disney did this to maximize their profit.

This is not done for us.

We do not get as much food on the plan. Consumers complained about the volume of the food in the past, they forget that they're the ones who ordered the very food they complained about.

Removing the volume of food on the plan lowers Disney's cost and enables them to turn the tables over faster.

The cost of the plan my still be a good value if you dine at one TS service establishment for each day you're there. It's not as good of a value as it was, but it's possible it may still be a good value for some families.


Regarding our 'winning' by paying the tip, bad service is always in the control of the customer. Who cares how much money the server is getting if you're not paying for it? The answer - you might if you are getting horrible service. At the time you get the bad service though, it's up to the customer to complain to a manager. Then the server can be dealt with properly.

Also, worth noting, the ONLY time I had bad service in Disney I was not on the Dining Plan for that meal, but was paying OOP for a breakfast. Our server at Kona was from the same state that the table behind us was. It was a long lost family reunion for them and our food and service suffered as a result. Because of this, I think bad servers are just that - bad servers. She knew she was 'working for her tip' and still provided lousy service.

 

[bicker]

Typical managerial tactic, but disgusting nonetheless.

You're way off-base. The 2007 plan was under-priced. The 2008 plan is appropriately-priced.

And, by the way, Bicker -- there is no "generally accepted business ethics" regarding keeping what happened at the bargaining table confidential.

That wasn't what I was referring to. The issue we were discussing there was why the company changed what the Dining Plan included, i.e. why the company proposed what it proposed and/or why the company agreed to what it agreed to -- effectively, answering the customer's question, "Why did you change the Dining Plan?"

I hope the CM's working in restaurants make it very clear that they lacked the union power to oppose what Disney forced on them. And, it is particularly egregious for Disney to try to "spin" this by saying the food service CM's wanted it.

You can't have it both ways. Either both sides should get to spin it, so guests gets conflicting information and an overall disturbing customer experience, which of course helps NO ONE, or both sides should keep their mouths shut about "why" and just help the customer have the best vacation they can.

And, I have no particular dog in this fight -- I'm not a CM and I don't know anyone who is.

Ditto.

I just appreciate calling a spade a spade.

As do I. I guess we have different decks.

 

[Nancyg56]

Ok, I might be missing something here. I have not reviewed all of the info on the dining plan for next year. But with that being said, I am excited about paying my own tip!!! I really think the servers are gonna have to work harder for them!!!! I really don't understand why people who will be getting dining plan next year are complaining about the tip, its still saving you money, tip or no tip included. I don't know, but its just my opinion.

I'll be interested in the discussions that happen after the new DDP goes into effect. I have never bought the argument that the servers do not provide good service to those on the plan so I am not thrilled with the changes. I also am not at all sure that this change is going to result in servers who give better service to DDP guests. If there is a pattern of DDP users who leave less than appropriate tips, or worse yet, leave no tip I imagine that the next change in the plan will result in those who purchase the plan will need to agree to have that 18% added on to their bill.

 

[bicker]

As a European I read all these post and my ears are just keep on flapping. Its a disgrace that servers ore anybody else must depend on a tip for there regular income. Come on were living in 2007 and NOBODY should be depending on charity from costumers to get a normal income.

Please accept that you simply don't understand the American experience. Your disdain is misplaced. This is a fine system, as good as yours. I'm sure you don't appreciate the "ugly American" coming to your country and disparaging your culture, so please don't disparage ours as it pertains to WDW.

It isn't a disgrace. It isn't charity. It is the way our culture provides for compensation of servers for the cost-of-service in restaurants.

 

[gina2000]

Here's a totally hypothetical example: Though this is absolutely not true of every DDP plan guest, but I would imagine many DDP guests have never tipped out of pocket on a $75+ per person meal before, and as such may think 18% is way too high no matter how good the service. Even as a server, I might think twice before leaving a $15-$20 tip per person. I'm not in that tax-bracket personally where I often eat high end fine dining, and Im not sure the average family using DDP is either. My dad would likely leave $5 on a $100 check. So, in practice, I could see the average of all tips on a $75-$100 meal being $10 - some will tip more and some much less, $10 average. This $10 is better for the non Disney employee who recieved flat fee of $5, but worse for Disney employee who recieved 18% gratuity of $15.

I think this may be the heart of the matter and exactly what servers fear.

You can't have it both ways. Either both sides should get to spin it, so guests gets conflicting information and an overall disturbing customer experience, which of course helps NO ONE, or both sides should keep their mouths shut about "why" and just help the customer have the best vacation they can.

Disney gets to spin every change every day through their advertising and promotional activities. Employees for the most part keep their mouths shut despite decisions which adversely affect them. When a decision adversely affects a customer, though, and I say this again and again, the customer has the right to ask the question. And if WDW chooses not to directly answer the question, so be it. But if an employee should want to answer the question, I think they have a right to.

It's obvious that this change is changing the face of WDW dining. Patrons may choose to take their pocketbooks elsewhere and find magic offsite. Then WDW will decide what their next move will be to entice patrons back onsite. It's just a pendulum. Right now the swing is against wooing the customer and providing extra customer satisfaction. The deck of cards is the same....it's the deal that is different.....for the consumer and the servers and WDW.....and ultimately for the WDW bottom line.

 

[sjaakie]

Please accept that you simply don't understand the American experience. Your disdain is misplaced. This is a fine system, as good as yours. I'm sure you don't appreciate the "ugly American" coming to your country and disparaging your culture, so please don't disparage ours as it pertains to WDW.

It isn't a disgrace. It isn't charity. It is the way our culture provides for compensation of servers for the cost-of-service in restaurants.

Excuse me but I no where write about any "ugly American" that are your words.
And its certainly no dedain .

This system we deald in Europe a long,long time ago when the Major and the Vicker made the deal:” you keep them dum,and I will keep them poor and believe me NO European will pay this amount of tip.
No way.

I`m on a Dutch WDW forum and I’m under attack because I’m the only one who will pay the tip without a problem. The other members think I'm out of my mind.

By the way we own a company in transportation and every one who comes to our company gets a tip.(every day so I know what I`m talking about)

And if this system is so fine why is everybody then complainig about it?

 

[JLKennedy]

The problem here is that let's face it....American's are cheap. We're demanding and lazy too! We want our refill 10 minutes ago, little ice (who wants a "flat soda") and we expect you to cater to our every need and do it without getting a big tip. When I tip (and I've never been in the service field), I take a couple things into consideration. First is the environment. If the place is packed, I know to EXPECT a delay in things and that it necessarily isn't the servers fault. Then I base it on service....regardless, they will always get 15% from me, usually 20%. Everyone (generally speaking) is up in arms because they don't "feel" they're getting one up on Disney. They want the tip to be included because they don't feel that they should have to pay for it since they've paid for the dining out of pocket....and the cost only went down $1.....but everything else in our economy/market has gone up. Disney is making money on us, sure....but the cost to manufacture things (thanks union workers) and to ship things....at some point costs must be passed on to the end user/consumer.

Let's face it, American's will complain because it is their right to do so. You can never make 100% of the people happy, 100% of the time. Just get over it, and hey....if you don't like the changes, who's forcing you to go?

Sjaakie....you are absolutely right!

We pay our servers $2.25/hr (so that they aren't TAXED as much), and let's make it perfectly clear that "servers on average", DO NOT REPORT 100% of their tips, otherwise, they'd owe taxes....I think they should make the minimum wage and pay the taxes due on 100% of their income, like everyone else in America does (unless your subsidized).

Stepping off soapbox....

 

[Guzzi]

When I booked the bounceback offer a few days ago I didn't ask for any info about the changes. She said, "The 2008 DDP will not include appetizer or gratuity. But since they are raising the prices at the restaurants you'll still get that big savings anyway."

Do you know by what percent Disney is raising the Food Prices for 2008. We will be going in july and using the DDP, I think it is still a great deal for folks that like to eat. It worked great for us on our trips, just looking at the TS menus, doing the math, we saved money.

Im curious about how much the food prices are going up

 

[Merriwind]

Others can try to gloss over Disney making this change all they want, but Uncleromulus has it right. The servers are vastly outnumbered in the union, and this was jammed down their throats, as we all heard at the time. One of the things you learn in your labor relations courses in MBA school is how to structure your unions so that no single group of employees has much power, and Disney has done that very well.

The real reason the change was made was that it puts about $9-10 extra in Disney's bottom line for each Adult TS. It ain't rocket science folks!

The servers really have only a few choices.

They could (and probably should) petition the NLRB to form a separate bargaining unit, because their current bargaining unit is not representing their interests well. That's a long and costly process, but it could be done.

They could "suck it up" and move on, figuring that even with the changes they are better off than in a non-Disney job. I know many Disney employees refer to the Mouse as "The Rat," but there are worse places to work.

Or they could quit.

I think most of us here have a soft spot in our hearts for Disney CMs whereever they might work. But very few will change anything we're doing because of some perceived unfairness suffered by a particular group of CMs. We'll feel bad for you, but it won't change our behavior.

The fact that Disney has greatly reduced the value of DDP WILL affect many visitors' choices. But even with the changes, many others will still find DDP to be worthwhile (not anywhere as good as it once was, but still worth doing).

When I read posts along these lines, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Everyone -- for some indecipherable reason -- gravitates to the irrelevent question of whether the tip is automatic or optional and how that might/might not affect service. That's not the point, folks!

(For one thing, if your party has 6 or more people, the tip IS going to be added automatically anyway. For another thing, if you order anything not covered by DDP, 18% is going to be added to that check, too. But that's not the point either.)

The point is, formerly the tip was paid by DISNEY...not us! With the change, Disney pockets that cash and the responsibility (all of it) is now ours. The tip, which formerly we did NOT pay, WE NOW PAY starting 1/1/2008.

It has nothing to do with service. The 18% tip on an average TS meal (+/- $50) is $9.00. Prior to this change, we paid ZERO. With this change, every time someone's card gets swiped for one TS meal, we PAY the $9 and Disney's little cash register goes, "Ching, ching!"

At $9 for each and every adult TS meal eaten during a year, that is a TON of extra revenue with zero cost to Disney...because all of the cost has been shifted to the customer.

That is the entire point of this change, and it's mind-boggling that people don't see it.

Clear and eloquent as always, JimMIA.

 

[the Fidge]

Wow my head hurts!

 

[ujpest_doza]

The problem here is that let's face it....American's are cheap. We're demanding and lazy too! We want our refill 10 minutes ago, little ice (who wants a "flat soda") and we expect you to cater to our every need and do it without getting a big tip. When I tip (and I've never been in the service field), I take a couple things into consideration. First is the environment. If the place is packed, I know to EXPECT a delay in things and that it necessarily isn't the servers fault. Then I base it on service....regardless, they will always get 15% from me, usually 20%. Everyone (generally speaking) is up in arms because they don't "feel" they're getting one up on Disney. They want the tip to be included because they don't feel that they should have to pay for it since they've paid for the dining out of pocket....and the cost only went down $1.....but everything else in our economy/market has gone up. Disney is making money on us, sure....but the cost to manufacture things (thanks union workers) and to ship things....at some point costs must be passed on to the end user/consumer.

Let's face it, American's will complain because it is their right to do so. You can never make 100% of the people happy, 100% of the time. Just get over it, and hey....if you don't like the changes, who's forcing you to go?

Sjaakie....you are absolutely right!

We pay our servers $2.25/hr (so that they aren't TAXED as much), and let's make it perfectly clear that "servers on average", DO NOT REPORT 100% of their tips, otherwise, they'd owe taxes....I think they should make the minimum wage and pay the taxes due on 100% of their income, like everyone else in America does (unless your subsidized).

Stepping off soapbox....

$2.25 What on earth is the minimum wage??

In England the minimum wage is £5.52 per hour for those aged over 21 which at current exchange rates is approx $10.60 per hour.

 

[sjaakie]

$2.25 What on earth is the minimum wage??

In England the minimum wage is £5.52 per hour for those aged over 21 which at current exchange rates is approx $10.60 per hour.

My 18 year old son makes 10 dollars p/h !!!

 

[bicker]

Disney gets to spin every change every day through their advertising and promotional activities.

I haven't seen a single stitch of advertising or promotional materials that blame CMs for any change to the Dining Plan. Any information people have regarding this came strictly from unsolicited inquiries... customers asking the inappropriate "why" question I referred to earlier. I've already made it clear that I believe that neither side should ever answer that question... they are supposed to ONLY explain what the offerings are.

Employees for the most part keep their mouths shut despite decisions which adversely affect them.

Which is appropriate. Never let the customers see your disagreement with your employees/with your boss. Never.

When a decision adversely affects a customer, though, and I say this again and again, the customer has the right to ask the question.

And I say again and again, customers have no right to information about why changes are made to offerings. There is no precept or tenet anywhere that serves as a foundation for any expectation of having the "why" question answered.

And if WDW chooses not to directly answer the question, so be it. But if an employee should want to answer the question, I think they have a right to.

Absolutely not. There is never an excuse for an employee, as an employee, to provide any information other than that which they are authorized to provide.

It's obvious that this change is changing the face of WDW dining.

Much less so than the introduction of the Dining Plan did in 2005. Let's not blow this out of proportion. At worst, this change could only return WDW dining to how it was three years ago. At worst. And a lot of folks (though not myself) have been very vocal about their perspective that that would be a good thing.

 

[bicker]

Excuse me but I no where write about any "ugly American" that are your words.

Absolutely. Don't think for a minute that, when traveling abroad, many of us Americans have any trouble spotting the "ugly Americans" that are also traveling abroad. We know those people exist; we know that you don't like them; we don't like them either. That was my point.

And its certainly no dedain .

This statement of yours is "disdain": "Its a disgrace that servers ore anybody else must depend on a tip for there regular income." The indicator for me was the use of the word "disgrace". You subsequent sentences in this reply of yours also qualified, equating that aspect of our national culture to, "you keep them dum,and I will keep them poor".

I`m on a Dutch WDW forum and I’m under attack because I’m the only one who will pay the tip without a problem.

No. My objections are about what you said about that aspect of our national culture (see above), not about what you say you do.

And if this system is so fine why is everybody then complainig about it?

You should see how much more heated the arguments get when there are discussions about doing away with the gratuities for service system. I'll be glad to give you some links to CruiseCritic.com where a few such discussions have been on-going. People complain about A and people complain about NOT A. It is the nature of the Internet.

 

[bicker]

The problem here is that let's face it....American's are cheap. We're demanding and lazy too!

To be fair, we're exporting these aspects of our national culture to other countries. However, your point is well-taken and right on-target.

When I tip (and I've never been in the service field), I take a couple things into consideration. First is the environment. If the place is packed, I know to EXPECT a delay in things and that it necessarily isn't the servers fault.

Funny, I do that, but the net result is zero: Yes, the place is busy so I know to expect a delay. However, again, the place is busy so I know the server is getting tipped by more people. Therefore, just tip based on the quality of the service you receive, and so the server gets a mediocre tip from a bunch of people instead of a great tip from a few people.

 

[bicker]

$2.25 What on earth is the minimum wage??

[SIZE=-1]The federal minimum wage for covered nonexempt employees is $5.85 per hour effective July 24, 2007. Even servers are assured at least that much, if their weekly tips are less than the difference between the $2.25 and the $5.85 numbers.[/SIZE]