Racism or just enforcing rules?

[MamaBelle4]

For what it's worth, I'm usually one of the posters who argue on the side that it is racism. My general rule of thumb is is a person of color says they believe they were the target of racism, it is not my place to marginalize or question their experience.

I do honestly believe that the people here who so frequently believe that nothing that appears racist is, are people who don't see racism because they don't want to because they don't want to believe it exists at the high level it still exists in our society. I mean, I shouldn't be putting words in people's mouths (or perhaps words on their screens), but that's my perspective at least.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of food.

Based on that phrasing, I honestly assumed the person they were meeting was trying to sell them some sort of pyramid scheme----people wear all kinds of things to meet with people trying to sell them on "investing"

But regardless of why they were meeting someone there, every indication is that they were single out as needing to leave far sooner than other, (probably white) patrons

I think this piece addresses the underlying issue well (it is opinion, just well explained IMO)

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...hop-illustrates-norms-are-racially-coded.html

 

[PollyannaMom]

I think this piece addresses the underlying issue well (it is opinion, just well explained IMO)

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...hop-illustrates-norms-are-racially-coded.html

Thanks. I agree it was worth reading!

 

[luvsJack]

So by the judgement of some posters if you always say it’s racism, you are not a racist. If you say it isn’t you are and in denial. Good to know.

But there is on tiny problem with that, you don’t know any of us irl. You don’t know anything about what we do in our day to day lives or how we handle situations or who we discuss these things with irl.

There has been a situation at my place of employment that was blatantly racism. There is a situation at dd’s finace’s workplac that is baltently sexism. Those situations I can get behind and speak on it being wrong. That doesn’t mean that every news story that comes down the pipe is racism or sexism or ageism or any other ism.

 

[NHdisneylover]

So by the judgement of some posters if you always say it’s racism, you are not a racist. If you say it isn’t you are and in denial. Good to know.

But there is on tiny problem with that, you don’t know any of us irl. You don’t know anything about what we do in our day to day lives or how we handle situations or who we discuss these things with irl.

There has been a situation at my place of employment that was blatantly racism. There is a situation at dd’s finace’s workplac that is baltently sexism. Those situations I can get behind and speak on it being wrong. That doesn’t mean that every news story that comes down the pipe is racism or sexism or ageism or any other ism.

Often times though, Racism is not "blatant" as in it is not someone thinking/saying "I do not want to be around that person, or do not trust that person, etc due to their race" It is frequently deeply ingrained and someone thinking/saying "that person looks out of place/dangerous to me and is making me uncomfortable" without them stopping to think why and realizing that the person's race is the only thing that is giving them that feeling, then working not to allow that "feeling" to sway their actions.


and, no, things are not ALWAYS racism (who ever said that?), but any objective analysis shows that racism does play a huge role in our society---whether in arrests, sentencing, school suspensions, etc

 

[cjbcam]

IMO some people see racism in situations that do not go the way they want. I will never forget being called a racist and being yelled at and threatened at the golf course I worked at in university.
Our policy was to take car keys for cart keys. When you returned the cart key you got your car keys back. Well this one guy did not want to do that and he said I was only wanting his key because I was racist and I didn’t take anyone else’s. My boss (owner of club) was thankfully working in his office because he heard this guy start screaming at me and came out to see what was going on. Then he threw a punch at the owner and it became a fist fight. The cops were called and it was all because he “thought” I was treating him differently.
I clearly think racism happens I just think sometimes people see it where it’s not.

 

[PollyannaMom]

We are asking people to stop JUDGING others based on race.

You should think about race when you make a decision. If you react/think one way when the person looks like and another when he/she doesn't, then that is a problem.

I don't mean to ignore your response to my post. I had two different replies typed out, and neither of them sounded right after I read them back.

I think we still might be missing some info in the golf incident, but I am definitely convinced that the Starbucks incident was unfair!

When I balked at thinking about race when making decisions, I meant that I was raised to believe the end goal was not to notice color at all, and that making it a factor in the decision defeated that purpose. But I realized (I think) that you just meant we should examine decisions after we first make them (before we act on them) to ensure that we made them without considering race. Is that closer?

 

[sk!mom]

But, not until AFTER being asked 3 times to make a purchase or leave.

Here’s the difference in the two situations IMO. If the same thing had happened with 2 white guys in Starbucks, NOBODY would have an issue with any of it. 2 white guys come in to use the restroom & buy nothing. They are asked to make a purchase or leave, and refuse. They’re told to make a purchase or leave, and refuse. They’re warned that police are on the way, and again refuse to make a purchase or leave. At this point, they have already committed trespass. Police arrive and the entire scenario plays out AGAIN with no threat of arrest or charges until after they once again refuse to leave. So, then they are arrested.

If that had happened with 2 white guys, it’s highly unlikely any of us even would have heard of it. And if by chance we did, none of us would give it as much as a shrug. We would all recognize the manager was within his or her rights, and that the police were courteous and attempted to diffuse the entire thing by letting the trespassers leave with no arrest or charges if only they’d leave.

Now, if the 5 women golfers had been 5 white guys, we would still look at that trying to figure out just what the bleep that was all about. The entire incident sounds ridiculous regardless of who was involved. So yeah, that obviously deserves a sideways glance.

Except it didn't happen to two white guys or 5 white women. I am a white woman, married to a white man, and the mom of two white young adults (1 male and 1 female.) We all see the racism in these situations because we recognize that we have NEVER been treated in the ways that we see people of color treated in now countless videos. People who insist on down playing these situations or explaining them away are contributing to the problem. The first step to recovery is admitting that there is a problem.

My DH is a golfer and he has never been asked to leave a course or seen anyone asked to leave. He showed me the video yesterday and said that in his view of playing at any course he's ever near was that it was plain and simply racism/sexism. My DD21 loves to study/ meet friends at Starbucks (and has since high school) and has never been questioned, approached, and certainly never asked to leave. She has no doubt that racism was the issue. Plus even if you wanted to argue that one, Starbucks has now admitted to and apologized for the racism in that situation. It's ridiculous to try to explain it away when the perpetrator has owned it, admitted shame, and vowed to be better going forward.

 

[sk!mom]

The police saying they had no reason to be called is odd too. I mean if they were acting out before they got there maybe they stopped when they did arrive?


I mean I am not sure anyone can say racism unless this club never lets blacks play. I mean I wouldn’t think the guy would suddenly be racist today but wasn’t yesterday. But stranger things have happened.

Why can't you just accept that the police said that there was no need for them to be called? Why do you need to victim blame? Why can't you accept that racism exists?

 

[Skywalker]

For what it's worth, I'm usually one of the posters who argue on the side that it is racism. My general rule of thumb is is a person of color says they believe they were the target of racism, it is not my place to marginalize or question their experience.

I do honestly believe that the people here who so frequently believe that nothing that appears racist is, are people who don't see racism because they don't want to because they don't want to believe it exists at the high level it still exists in our society. I mean, I shouldn't be putting words in people's mouths (or perhaps words on their screens), but that's my perspective at least.

Regarding your "general rule of thumb" I think to be honest that is as ridiculous as "all women must be believed if they accuse someone". What we should all strive for is the truth, not blindly allowing anyone to control the narrative. Because there are real people on the other side of those accusations. Real people that may be totally innocent and yet will be labelled an abuser or a racist or whatever, because we must never dare question. That's not fair to anyone. Sometimes someone who believes they are the victim of racism is wrong. Sometimes a woman who accuses a man is lying. I don't think that's a hard concept.

 

[sk!mom]

I've read several of the links provided and watched one of the videos - it's baffling why they women were approached in the first place. Were they being watched and timed on the holes? If the group behind them didn't complain to the course marshal, how did this even become an issue to begin with if everybody was just golfing along and minding their own business? And the "confrontation" shown in the video seems very, very benign - no raised voices or any implication that things would get volatile.

Exactly! I can only assume racism. They were watching them because they didn't want them there. He mentions in the video how long they took to play a hole but the group behind them had no issue. It seems to me that the only explanation was watching them and looking for a reason to ask them to leave, Which screams- racism.

 

[sk!mom]

These women have even said they believe the motive might have been sexism.

OK, but still no better than racism.

And people of all races are asked to leave Starbucks every day too. Most have a 30 minute limit and while they’ll often look the other way if you exceed it, it’s not the case in every store, particularly when the place is busy. I have a friend whose 20-something son has been booted from the same Starbucks more than a dozen times while in there using the wi-fi.

What are you basing the bolded on? Starbucks themselves have said that they are ashamed of the treatment of their customers. Why are you defending what they admit was wrong and shameful?

 

[sunshinehighway]

Maybe because they’re the ones who would never treat others differently based on race.



I’ll speak for myself. I’m a natural devil’s advocate. When I hear something as simplistic as, “it’s racism, what else could it be?”, I’m naturally drawn to answer that question. The difference is I’m willing to explore all the possibilities including racism. And I often find myself debating people who have no interest in considering any other possibilities, EVER.

Says the poster who is pro racial profiling.

 

[luvsJack]

Why can't you just accept that the police said that there was no need for them to be called? Why do you need to victim blame? Why can't you accept that racism exists?

Maybe there wasn’t a reason to be called. I have no idea and being that neither of us were there, neither of us know what happened. The police can only report on what was happening when they arrived.

I don’t see automatically see a victim so can’t be victim blaming. And I know full well that racism exists. See it all the time.

Why can’t you accept that not every situation is racism??

 

[luvsJack]

OK, but still no better than racism.



What are you basing the bolded on? Starbucks themselves have said that they are ashamed of the treatment of their customers. Why are you defending what they admit was wrong and shameful?

And you don’t think that it is just slightly possible that Starbucks did what they did for PR? If this situation had not gone viral and hit every so called news outlet, do you think the outcome would have been the same?

 

[PollyannaMom]

IMO some people see racism in situations that do not go the way they want. I will never forget being called a racist and being yelled at and threatened at the golf course I worked at in university.
Our policy was to take car keys for cart keys. When you returned the cart key you got your car keys back. Well this one guy did not want to do that and he said I was only wanting his key because I was racist and I didn’t take anyone else’s. My boss (owner of club) was thankfully working in his office because he heard this guy start screaming at me and came out to see what was going on. Then he threw a punch at the owner and it became a fist fight. The cops were called and it was all because he “thought” I was treating him differently.
I clearly think racism happens I just think sometimes people see it where it’s not.

This is what I meant about "making it a factor in the decision" in my other post. - After this incident, you probably went on to enforce the rule normally with white patrons, but became nervous to enforce it with black patrons for fear it would be misinterpreted as racist. You very likely started treating black patrons differently - which is, of course, the opposite of the goal - and I think that's exactly what some of the people hesitating are afraid of. Walking on eggshells around people of a different race is better than calling the cops on them, but it's still not good.

(That doesn't mean I think we should stop calling out racism when we see it! - But acknowledging fears is an important step in getting past them, and breaking big problems down into component parts can be helpful in solving them.)

 

[sk!mom]

And you don’t think that it is just slightly possible that Starbucks did what they did for PR? If this situation had not gone viral and hit every so called news outlet, do you think the outcome would have been the same?

Are you joking? They admitted racism because it was blatantly racist, No matter what defenders say, Starbucks knows that they do NOT typically ask people to leave and never within 2 minutes of arriving.

And by the way, it was a white female customer who recognized the racism she was witnessing and posted the video.

How far will you go to defend/deny racism? I'm stunned.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Maybe there wasn’t a reason to be called. I have no idea and being that neither of us were there, neither of us know what happened. The police can only report on what was happening when they arrived.

When the police state there is no reason for them to have been called, there is no reason not to believe their assessment of the situation. No "maybe" about it.

None of us was there, true. The affected party was there and filmed the encounter. The next party was there and at least 1/3 of them refuted the course's version of the encounter. The police were there following the second call to them about the same party of golfers, and state they should not even have been called.

There were apparently no other women golfing that morning, and no other people of color. Could have been racism, could have been sexism, could have been a combination. Heck, given the ages of the owners and the three some behind these women, there could even have been some ageism.

 

[rickybobby]

Two young men walk into my office.

One is aggravated with some policy but is polite and keeps his frustration under control. I try to help and he leaves.

The second one is aggravated about the same policy but gets agitated, begins cussing and raising his voice, I try to help him but he is still angry and when asked to leave, refuses. I pick up the phone and call campus police.

The first one is white and and the second black. Does that make me racist? What if it was reversed?

Yes, yes it does.

 

[rickybobby]

I hope not!

But I am beginning to wonder if we're doing it wrong. In order to stop people from thinking about race, we're asking them to think about race every time they make a decision.

Outstanding post. As said before, the same rules for everyone, and there will be no walking on eggshells.