Racism or just enforcing rules?

[rickybobby]

I don’t know what happened with these women on the golf course. If the club didn’t want a group of five, based on the number alone, the women should’ve been told that before they started.

The one detail that stood out to me (from the Washington Post and other sources), is that 911 was called, possibly twice, and if true, that is just wrong. You don’t call 911 for a non-emergency situation. Tying up the line could literally mean a difference between life and death for someone truly in need.

In my town, I have attempted to call police for non emergency situations before and been told to hang up and dial 911.

 

[jrmasm]

South central PA? Racism, no question.

 

[rickybobby]

They also refused to leave.

Agree. If you have a rule but no way to enforce it, you might as well not have the rule.

 

[rickybobby]

The men at Starbucks arrived around 4:35 for a 4:45 meeting. The call to police was made at 4:37.

Witnesses have said the men did not make a scene and they, along with the two men, were shocked when police entered the store and walked up to them.

Again, please tell us how the two men made a scene big enough that police had to be called in the 2 minutes they were at Starbucks.

Leaving race out of this - how can a manager determine in two minutes that men who were sitting at a table were refusing to leave and were making a scene?

ETA witness statement: http://abc7news.com/what-a-witness-says-happened-during-phila-starbucks-arrests/3342444/

Hate to dredge up this old story, but when Michael Brown was shot by the police officer in Ferguson, numerous eyewitnesses said he was running away with his hands up when shot.

 

[mummabear]

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of food.

You would think it would involve the purchase of food but:
A) they had only been there for 2 minutes and were waiting for he third member of their party to arrive.
B) In a work meeting situation held somewhere like Starbucks usually one side of the business deal is “shouting” the coffees.In this case, it may have been expected that the other side would do the ordering. either way, you don’t order until everyone is there.
C) I can tell you first hand when I was a teenager working retail that another teenage workmate and I were taken to McDonalds by our stores owner (who was middle aged) (mcds was across the road from our store) for a disciplinary meeting where he did not purchase any food before, during or after the meeting. So just because you shouldn’t do it, doesn’t mean it isn’t done.

As far as the ratty trackpants go, you would be shocked to see what people show up to interviews wearing.
But wearing track pants does not mean that they weren’t doing something important(at least to them) and I bet a couple of white kids wearing and doing the same hung would not have had the police to called on them within 2 minutes.

Not at our’s. It is usually pretty full of college students and a few high school students that need the WiFi and they are required to be a customer.

Just like a parking lot that says “for customers only”, they have every right to limit the limited seating to paying customers.

Yes-but there is also a reasonable time given to “be a customer” if I am meeting someone for a coffee, it is okay to wait for them before I order.
Calling the police after 2 minutes is unacceptable, and given over “customers” said they had been there longer without purchasing anything and had not been approached show exactly what the problem was in this situation.

 

[mummabear]

Racism exists there is no doubt about that. No one can deny that it isn’t something from the past. But when every interaction between a white manager, cop, office worker, barista, whatever and a person of color that doesn’t go just the way someone wants it to is seen as racism it makes it really hard to see the real cases.
Sometimes it’s about behavior

Absolutely. But looking at every situation as “how can we blame them” is also racism.

Look at the Starbucks example.
These guys were there for 2 minutes before he police were called, several white patrons said they had not purchased anything and been there longer and had not been asked to leave.
Yet here on this thread we have people saying”well who goes to a meeting in track pants”, “they should have just bought a cup of coffee”
And “they should have just left when they were told” Why? Rosa Parks should have stood up on the bus too right....

 

[mummabear]

I didn’t understand your post. It sounded like you were talking about definite examples. If your two hypotheticals happened then yes it would be racism. But have they happened, in the exact same businesses?

My point in my hypothetical situation was that for many they would say “well the white guy was mad too and she didn’t call campus police. It’s racism” When in actuality it would be about behavior. There are MANY situations where it is in fact about behavior and yet racism is screamed to the hilltops and that is what makes it hard for people to actually see the real racism.

Yes-in this Starbucks case, at that very starbucks, at that very same time. There a several white patrons that said despite being there longer, having not purchased anything that the manager had not approached them to demand they make a purchase or leave. Why is that?

But, not until AFTER being asked 3 times to make a purchase or leave.

Here’s the difference in the two situations IMO. If the same thing had happened with 2 white guys in Starbucks, NOBODY would have an issue with any of it. 2 white guys come in to use the restroom & buy nothing. They are asked to make a purchase or leave, and refuse. They’re told to make a purchase or leave, and refuse. They’re warned that police are on the way, and again refuse to make a purchase or leave. At this point, they have already committed trespass. Police arrive and the entire scenario plays out AGAIN with no threat of arrest or charges until after they once again refuse to leave. So, then they are arrested.

If that had happened with 2 white guys, it’s highly unlikely any of us even would have heard of it. And if by chance we did, none of us would give it as much as a shrug. We would all recognize the manager was within his or her rights, and that the police were courteous and attempted to diffuse the entire thing by letting the trespassers leave with no arrest or charges if only they’d leave.

Now, if the 5 women golfers had been 5 white guys, we would still look at that trying to figure out just what the bleep that was all about. The entire incident sounds ridiculous regardless of who was involved. So yeah, that obviously deserves a sideways glance.

You are skipping to the end though-why did the manager not approach the white patrons that had been there longer without making a purchase and give hem the purchase or leave ultimatum. It had been 2 minutes between when they were called in and when the police were called, you can’t loiter in 2 minutes.

 

[sk!mom]

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of

The young men were dressed pretty typically for a casual coffee shop meeting for their age group. I would not term their look as “ratty” at all but rather casual. Your description seems to reveal a bit of bias.

 

[rickybobby]

This was based on racism.

The young men arrested at Starbucks was based on racism.

The service women verbally abused and attacked at Cheddars in Georgia was based on racism.

I could go on, but will stop there

So, if you were on a jury with the information you have now, you would convict these owners of the golf course for civil rights violations?

 

[monsterkitty]

And you don’t think that it is just slightly possible that Starbucks did what they did for PR? If this situation had not gone viral and hit every so called news outlet, do you think the outcome would have been the same?

Right it was done for PR! Starbucks was just dying to close all their stores for one afternoon so they can hold training for employees. This PR stunt was just to make the training public.

Silly me, I thought PR stunts were done to make money, not lose money.

Hate to dredge up this old story, but when Michael Brown was shot by the police officer in Ferguson, numerous eyewitnesses said he was running away with his hands up when shot.

Sorry, I don't get your point. To my knowledge, there is no video of the actual shooting of Brown. There is video of the Starbucks incident.

 

[MamaBelle4]

So by the judgement of some posters if you always say it’s racism, you are not a racist. If you say it isn’t you are and in denial. Good to know.

Wow. Since you are so very content to twist my words as you see fit, I can no longer discuss with you these type of issues. I can't wait until you twist this quote to fit your narrative. That will certainly take some wordsmithing acrobatics.

Regarding your "general rule of thumb" I think to be honest that is as ridiculous as "all women must be believed if they accuse someone". What we should all strive for is the truth, not blindly allowing anyone to control the narrative.

And that's perfectly fine that you believe that. I certainly strive for the truth too. But when someone comes out and says, "I'm a victim of this," and the basic facts fit their narrative, I'm inclined to believe them unless otherwise proven.

At this point, "But it might not be racist because..." are all just theories. What they have stated has been confirmed by an eyewitness. And, as to the character of the one golfer, she was/is (I've been out of the York family law game for a while now) a well respected family law attorney who was a candidate for Judge for York County. So, frankly, I've no reason to doubt her sincerity.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I know nothing of golf clubs, but answer two questions for me.

1) Is it customary for the owners/managers to offer to refund the cost of the membership for playing a game too slow?

2) Is it customary to call the police, especially when the police confirmed their presence was unnecessary?

You didn't ask me but the answer to 1 is no. They just remind you to let someone play through. Further, the club pro said they were not playing too slowly. The answer to 2 is also no. It is not customary to call the cops for slow play. And the police confirmed their presence was unnecessary. But you know. We here at the dis know better than the cops or the pro. They MUUUUUUUST have done something to deserve it. After hole 1 or 2 would be way too early to make any sort of determination of slow play. And taking a break at the turn is customary. Anyone that wants to go ahead and start the back 9 that is ready can indeed do that or if there is a wait queue up. The group behind them was also taking a break. But if they so wanted, they could have walked straight onto 10 and gone ahead of the ladies any time they wanted to. So in fact nobody is or in this case was held up by them taking a break at the turn. The claim that they took too long a break is as completely bogus as was the claim on hole 2. And the guy just made up excuses as they went along every time she disproved one. The reason for a slow play rule is so you don't hold up others. But the ladies weren't holding anyone up as the pro said the first time, and they weren't holding anyone up at the turn either.

 

[disneyjunkie]

I don't mean to ignore your response to my post. I had two different replies typed out, and neither of them sounded right after I read them back.

I think we still might be missing some info in the golf incident, but I am definitely convinced that the Starbucks incident was unfair!

When I balked at thinking about race when making decisions, I meant that I was raised to believe the end goal was not to notice color at all, and that making it a factor in the decision defeated that purpose. But I realized (I think) that you just meant we should examine decisions after we first make them (before we act on them) to ensure that we made them without considering race. Is that closer?

Yes, that is closer.

There's nothing wrong with noticing color. My blackness is a part of me. It "wear" it with pride and honor. I am unapologetically black.

Seeing color isn't wrong.

 

[kaytieeldr]

So, if you were on a jury with the information you have now, you would convict these owners of the golf course of civil rights violations?

Information isn't necessarily evidence. I would need under-oath testimony, and actual allowed evidence, first. I do respect our legal system.

But you know. We here at the dis know better than the cops or the pro.

Not fair! Spitting alert should precede hilarious statements!

 

[rickybobby]

Information isn't necessarily evidence. I would need under-path testimony, and actual allowed evidence, first. I do respect our legal system.

This question was specifically directed to the poster I quoted. She stated she had her mind made up it was racism, and I was just curious.

 

[rickybobby]

Sorry, I don't get your point. To my knowledge, there is no video of the actual shooting of Brown. There is video of the Starbucks incident.[/QUOTE]
My point is, according to the post I responded to, eyewitnesses said the men were not causing any problems when police were called. A witness can be wrong, and often are.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Not fair! Spitting alert should precede hilarious statements!

But would it have been as funny if I gave a spitting alert?

 

[monsterkitty]

Sorry, I don't get your point. To my knowledge, there is no video of the actual shooting of Brown. There is video of the Starbucks incident.

My point is, according to the post I responded to, eyewitnesses said the men were not causing any problems when police were called. A witness can be wrong, and often are.[/QUOTE]

My point - there is video. The eyewitness took video.

 

[rickybobby]

My point - there is video. The eyewitness took video.[/QUOTE]
I have seen footage of the men being led out of the restaurant, nothing else. News reports say the police asked them to leave to avoid being removed, and they refused. Haven't seen that footage. Can you provide a link other than the one with the men being escorted out by police?

 

[luvsJack]

Wow. Since you are so very content to twist my words as you see fit, I can no longer discuss with you these type of issues. I can't wait until you twist this quote to fit your narrative. That will certainly take some wordsmithing acrobatics.



And that's perfectly fine that you believe that. I certainly strive for the truth too. But when someone comes out and says, "I'm a victim of this," and the basic facts fit their narrative, I'm inclined to believe them unless otherwise proven.

At this point, "But it might not be racist because..." are all just theories. What they have stated has been confirmed by an eyewitness. And, as to the character of the one golfer, she was/is (I've been out of the York family law game for a while now) a well respected family law attorney who was a candidate for Judge for York County. So, frankly, I've no reason to doubt her sincerity.

Lol except I wasn’t talking about you.