Racism or just enforcing rules?

[luvsJack]

Yep, when DH and I have traveled- NYC, London. Starbucks is our go to bathroom stop.

My DD21 and a college student was particularly angered by the Starbucks arrest as the same day it happened, she had spent hours in her neighborhood Starbucks using the wifi. As she said, "that's their business model." Come in, stay, meet, and we defy you to smell this coffee all day without buying. She has never been approached and asked to leave, purchase, whatever.

Apparently the policy is enforced differently in different locations. Our Starbucks isn’t huge but has a nice patio. If a person doesn’t at least buy one cup of coffee, they will be asked to leave. Otherwise there would be no where for their paying customers to sit.

Most places do have a policy like this, I don’t understand why it’s ucj a big shocker.

 

[luvsJack]

Maybe, but one of the women playing was a pretty highly respected family law attorney in our area and

But that wasn't what happened in either of these incidents being discussed. A more appropriate comparison would be:

Two white men sit in Starbucks for a couple hours, nothing happens.

Two black men sit in Starbucks for a couple hours, police called in for, what was it, loitering?

OR

A group of five black women are confronted several times for "playing too slowly" despite group directly behind them not complaining, police called 2x.

A group of five white women playing too slowly. Allow other golfers to play through. Nothing happens.

Racism isn't treating a person of color how you would treat a white person in the same situation. Racism is NOT treating a person of color how you would treat a white person in the same situation.

The two guys in Starbucks were asked to leave. And what two white guys are you referring to?

Which group of 5 white women?

Do you know of two white men or 5 white women or are you assuming?

And most businesses do have a policy against loitering which is what hanging out is.

I know the definition of racism.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

The police were not called on the white people sitting there without purchasing anything. But yes, let's twist ourselves into knots pretending race had nothing to do with this.

The police were called on the people who refused to make a purchase or leave. It’s very possible management intended to make the same demand of other patrons, but because these two made a scene, they were unable to move forward.

Reminds me of my days as a tour guide. If we had restless kids who were causing a disturbance, we asked the family to leave. Stop at the ticket booth for a full refund. On a particular day, I had 3 such kids on my tour. I started with the loudest kid (whose parents were making NO effort to contain him). They went right to the ticket booth to complain that they were being treated unfairly and that I singled them out while there were other noisy kids on the tour. The guy in the ticket booth then pointed toward the cave to show them 2 more couples with noisy kids headed for their refund.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I'm sick and tired of white people trying to explain away/deny racism. Racism, bigotry, prejudice...will always exist in this country.

And I’m sick of people trying to pretend every single incident that occurs between people of different races ONLY occurred because of race. Some people have to go there, automatically, every single time. And that is every bit as unrealistic as a claim that racism doesn’t exist. And it plays just as big of a role in keeping us from moving forward as a society.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

And some times it is what it appears to be. Racism.

Of course - but, not EVERY time.

 

[AppleDumpling]

I don’t know what happened with these women on the golf course. If the club didn’t want a group of five, based on the number alone, the women should’ve been told that before they started.

The one detail that stood out to me (from the Washington Post and other sources), is that 911 was called, possibly twice, and if true, that is just wrong. You don’t call 911 for a non-emergency situation. Tying up the line could literally mean a difference between life and death for someone truly in need.

 

[MamaBelle4]

The two guys in Starbucks were asked to leave. And what two white guys are you referring to?

Which group of 5 white women?

Do you know of two white men or 5 white women or are you assuming?

And most businesses do have a policy against loitering which is what hanging out is.

I know the definition of racism.

Do you? Because in the hypothetical example you quoted, you had a white man calmly accepting the policy and the black man yelling, acting belligerent and refusing to leave and then asked if you called the police on him if it was racist.

I used hypotheticals relating to the discussions at hand to answer you. You even asked if it would be racist if the positions were reversed.

If you call the police on a black person for the same reason you'd call the police for a white person or a Hispanic person or an Asian person or whoever, that isn't racist.

If you call the police for a reason you wouldn't call the police for a person of your own race, racism.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm sick and tired of white people trying to explain away/deny racism. Racism, bigotry, prejudice...will always exist in this country.

I don't know why you quoted me because what I said does not have anything to do with what you said. I said not everything is automatically about race...I did not say that racism doesn't exist.

Exactly! The custom, if the group ahead of you is playing more slowly, is to simply ask to "play through." Just as the custom at Starbucks is, "please come sit, take meetings, use our free wifi." My DH was just complaining a couple of weekends ago about a slow group who refused his groups request to play though. His party considered it poor golf etiquette but they didn't do anything except play slower themselves and probably drink more beer than usual.

We want to believe that racism is a part of our dark past but any person of color will tell you that it is very much alive. And thanks to cell phones we now see it for ourselves. The Golf Club could learn from Starbucks' very heartfelt apology. Denial just makes them look worse. They clearly wanted the women off the course so a bunch of white men headed out to bully them. Shameful!

Replying to the bolded part...uh...no. My mom is black, 100% Jamaican. She came to Canada along with her sister in 1964. She tells me she never experienced racism...she hung out with the friends she wanted, dated who she wanted to, got the job(s) she wanted, got polite service in restaurants, was treated politely if pulled over for traffic, etc etc etc. My aunt had the same experience. Although she thinks one time she had a landlord who might have been racist because he thought the white guy who was with her couldn't possibly have been her husband...or something. On the other hand, I have a cousin who is convinced racism is everywhere. Every time he gets bad service, every time he doesn't get a job, everytime someone cuts him off in traffic...it's always because he's black. Of course all the same things have happened to me but I realize sometimes people are just jerks. And sometimes YOU are the jerk. My point is, it's not about race all the dang time and if you think it is, maybe you are the one that's obsessed with it.

 

[sk!mom]

Apparently the policy is enforced differently in different locations. Our Starbucks isn’t huge but has a nice patio. If a person doesn’t at least buy one cup of coffee, they will be asked to leave. Otherwise there would be no where for their paying customers to sit.

Most places do have a policy like this, I don’t understand why it’s ucj a big shocker.

Possibly true, however the police were called within minutes of the men entering and asking to use the restroom.

 

[luvsJack]

Do you? Because in the hypothetical example you quoted, you had a white man calmly accepting the policy and the black man yelling, acting belligerent and refusing to leave and then asked if you called the police on him if it was racist.

I used hypotheticals relating to the discussions at hand to answer you. You even asked if it would be racist if the positions were reversed.

If you call the police on a black person for the same reason you'd call the police for a white person or a Hispanic person or an Asian person or whoever, that isn't racist.

If you call the police for a reason you wouldn't call the police for a person of your own race, racism.

I didn’t understand your post. It sounded like you were talking about definite examples. If your two hypotheticals happened then yes it would be racism. But have they happened, in the exact same businesses?

My point in my hypothetical situation was that for many they would say “well the white guy was mad too and she didn’t call campus police. It’s racism” When in actuality it would be about behavior. There are MANY situations where it is in fact about behavior and yet racism is screamed to the hilltops and that is what makes it hard for people to actually see the real racism.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I don't know why you quoted me because what I said does not have anything to do with what you said. I said not everything is automatically about race...I did not say that racism doesn't exist.



Replying to the bolded part...uh...no. My mom is black, 100% Jamaican. She came to Canada along with her sister in 1964. She tells me she never experienced racism...she hung out with the friends she wanted, dated who she wanted to, got the job(s) she wanted, got polite service in restaurants, was treated politely if pulled over for traffic, etc etc etc. My aunt had the same experience. Although she thinks one time she had a landlord who might have been racist because he thought the white guy who was with her couldn't possibly have been her husband...or something. On the other hand, I have a cousin who is convinced racism is everywhere. Every time he gets bad service, every time he doesn't get a job, everytime someone cuts him off in traffic...it's always because he's black. Of course all the same things have happened to me but I realize sometimes people are just jerks. And sometimes YOU are the jerk. My point is, it's not about race all the dang time and if you think it is, maybe you are the one that's obsessed with it.

Amen

 

[luvsJack]

Possibly true, however the police were called within minutes of the men entering and asking to use the restroom.

They also refused to leave.

 

[GreatLakes]

The two are not mutually exclusive. I have no idea in this particular case but often times the same rules are enforced differently based on the race of those involved. Sometimes this asymmetrical enforcement benefits the people of one particular race over others, other times it benefits people of a different particular race over others. In the end I think it all evens out for everyone.

That being said, calling the police on slow golfers seems a waste of their resources to me.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Possibly true, however the police were called within minutes of the men entering and asking to use the restroom.

But, not until AFTER being asked 3 times to make a purchase or leave.

Here’s the difference in the two situations IMO. If the same thing had happened with 2 white guys in Starbucks, NOBODY would have an issue with any of it. 2 white guys come in to use the restroom & buy nothing. They are asked to make a purchase or leave, and refuse. They’re told to make a purchase or leave, and refuse. They’re warned that police are on the way, and again refuse to make a purchase or leave. At this point, they have already committed trespass. Police arrive and the entire scenario plays out AGAIN with no threat of arrest or charges until after they once again refuse to leave. So, then they are arrested.

If that had happened with 2 white guys, it’s highly unlikely any of us even would have heard of it. And if by chance we did, none of us would give it as much as a shrug. We would all recognize the manager was within his or her rights, and that the police were courteous and attempted to diffuse the entire thing by letting the trespassers leave with no arrest or charges if only they’d leave.

Now, if the 5 women golfers had been 5 white guys, we would still look at that trying to figure out just what the bleep that was all about. The entire incident sounds ridiculous regardless of who was involved. So yeah, that obviously deserves a sideways glance.

 

[MickeyPretzels]

I wonder why it is always the same people trying to argue that racism is not racism.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I wonder why it is always the same people trying to argue that racism is not racism.

Maybe because they’re the ones who would never treat others differently based on race.



I’ll speak for myself. I’m a natural devil’s advocate. When I hear something as simplistic as, “it’s racism, what else could it be?”, I’m naturally drawn to answer that question. The difference is I’m willing to explore all the possibilities including racism. And I often find myself debating people who have no interest in considering any other possibilities, EVER.

 

[disneyjunkie]

I hope not!

But I am beginning to wonder if we're doing it wrong. In order to stop people from thinking about race, we're asking them to think about race every time they make a decision.

We are asking people to stop JUDGING others based on race.

You should think about race when you make a decision. If you react/think one way when the person looks like and another when he/she doesn't, then that is a problem.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I wonder why it is always the same people trying to argue that racism is not racism.

Really? On the Dis? Inconceivable. Say it aint so.

IIIIIIII know racism exists... Just not in this case (yeah and also every case or nearly every case they've ever commented on)
Weeeee don't know all the facts. They muuuuuuust have done something to deserve it.
Racism isn't the problem..... Pointing it out is.
I have black friends you know!!!
blaaaaaacks falsely complaining about racism are causing people to not take the real thing seriously. It's alllllll their fault.


You can change blacks to women and racism to sexism and the result is the same.


De Nile. It isn't just a river in Egypt.

 

[NHdisneylover]

From what I have seen/read this was likely a combination of racism and sexism .
The owner comes off as a misogynistic bigot who was hoping to trump up an excuse to deny membership to the black women who dared join the club.
I certainly can't see any reason to believe he was just enforcing normal rules or even reacting normally HAD they actually been breaking rules.

 

[monsterkitty]

The police were called on the people who refused to make a purchase or leave. It’s very possible management intended to make the same demand of other patrons, but because these two made a scene, they were unable to move forward.

Reminds me of my days as a tour guide. If we had restless kids who were causing a disturbance, we asked the family to leave. Stop at the ticket booth for a full refund. On a particular day, I had 3 such kids on my tour. I started with the loudest kid (whose parents were making NO effort to contain him). They went right to the ticket booth to complain that they were being treated unfairly and that I singled them out while there were other noisy kids on the tour. The guy in the ticket booth then pointed toward the cave to show them 2 more couples with noisy kids headed for their refund.

The men at Starbucks arrived around 4:35 for a 4:45 meeting. The call to police was made at 4:37.

Witnesses have said the men did not make a scene and they, along with the two men, were shocked when police entered the store and walked up to them.

Again, please tell us how the two men made a scene big enough that police had to be called in the 2 minutes they were at Starbucks.

Leaving race out of this - how can a manager determine in two minutes that men who were sitting at a table were refusing to leave and were making a scene?

ETA witness statement: http://abc7news.com/what-a-witness-says-happened-during-phila-starbucks-arrests/3342444/