Racism or just enforcing rules?

[luvsJack]

Self-assessment vs external rating. At least one person of the three directly following the women, so the most directly affected by speed of play, considered the women to be not-slow.

I would love to know the opinion of the other two in his group.

I thought a pp said that she admitted there was a bit of a bottleneck at one point. So that is in complete disagreement with what the golfer behind them said.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I have to go look now for the Starbucks story I somehow missed!

 

[tcufrog]

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of food.

I once met my insurance agent at Starbucks in old sweatpants and a messy ponytail because I didn't have time to change after dropping the kids off for school. I got there before the agent and didn't order anything because I had just had breakfast. I looked like crap but I'm a 40 year old white woman.

 

[luvsJack]

I once met my insurance agent at Starbucks in old sweatpants and a messy ponytail because I didn't have time to change after dropping the kids off for school. I got there before the agent and didn't order anything because I had just had breakfast. I looked like crap but I'm a 40 year old white woman.

How did the agent look?

Meeting your insurance agent isn’t normally a life changing business deal.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I once met my insurance agent at Starbucks in old sweatpants and a messy ponytail because I didn't have time to change after dropping the kids off for school. I got there before the agent and didn't order anything because I had just had breakfast. I looked like crap but I'm a 40 year old white woman.

Meeting your insurance agent isn’t the same as meeting an investor at all.

 

[tcufrog]

If I hadn't met with him we wouldn't have had health insurance. I consider that quite important and possibly life changing. The agent was running late so I was there for awhile without him. He was in a suit FWIW.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

If I hadn't met with him we wouldn't have had health insurance. I consider that quite important and possibly life changing. The agent was running late so I was there for awhile without him. He was in a suit FWIW.

Exactly, the seller showed up in a suit. The two guys who were arrested weren’t buyers, they were sellers.

Besides, where their story breaks down is the refusal to make a purchase or leave. Even if that incident was 100% racism & nothing else, if their future potentially hinged on the purchase of a cup of coffee, they’d have just bought the coffee.

 

[luvsJack]

If I hadn't met with him we wouldn't have had health insurance. I consider that quite important and possibly life changing. The agent was running late so I was there for awhile without him. He was in a suit FWIW.

Again, not the same thing. You were buying something from him. You didnt need to dress to impress. They were supposed to be meeting an investor.

 

[disneyjunkie]

And people of all races are asked to leave Starbucks every day too. Most have a 30 minute limit and while they’ll often look the other way if you exceed it, it’s not the case in every store, particularly when the place is busy. I have a friend whose 20-something son has been booted from the same Starbucks more than a dozen times while in there using the wi-fi.

The police were not called on the white people sitting there without purchasing anything. But yes, let's twist ourselves into knots pretending race had nothing to do with this.

 

[luvsJack]

The police were not called on the white people sitting there without purchasing anything. But yes, let's twist ourselves into knots pretending race had nothing to do with this.

Which white people? That day?

Did anyone else refuse to leave?

Are you saying these two were the only black men to ever walk into that Starbucks? Ever? Has anyone else said they were refused service? Has anyone else said they were asked to leave? Are you implying the manager became racist just for these two guys on this one particular day?

Just because they were black doesn’t automatically make it racism.

 

[disneyjunkie]

Anytime something bad, uncomfortable, unfair, etc. happens to you it doesn't mean it's automatically about race.

I'm sick and tired of white people trying to explain away/deny racism. Racism, bigotry, prejudice...will always exist in this country.

 

[disneyjunkie]

And there is a difference between businesses in cities vs. suburbs. I can walk into my local Starbucks and use the bathroom, heck dd15’s usual order is ice water, free. I can’t walk into a Starbucks in NYC and expect to be able to use the bathroom without a purchase.

I live in NYC,. I have never not been allowed to use the restrooms in Starbucks. I rarely spend money there.

 

[missbrooke06]

I’m not buying the Starbucks one at all. Nobody goes to an “important business meeting that could change our lives” in ratty sweatpants. And even the most basic meeting held in a restaurant involves the purchase of food.

After all, Mark Zuckerberg's signature look is a three piece suit.

 

[sk!mom]

I know nothing of golf clubs, but answer two questions for me.

1) Is it customary for the owners/managers to offer to refund the cost of the membership for playing a game too slow?

2) Is it customary to call the police, especially when the police confirmed their presence was unnecessary?

Exactly! The custom, if the group ahead of you is playing more slowly, is to simply ask to "play through." Just as the custom at Starbucks is, "please come sit, take meetings, use our free wifi." My DH was just complaining a couple of weekends ago about a slow group who refused his group's request to play through. His party considered it poor golf etiquette but they didn't do anything except play slower themselves and probably drink more beer than usual.

We want to believe that racism is a part of our dark past but any person of color will tell you that it is very much alive. And thanks to cell phones we now see it for ourselves. The Golf Club could learn from Starbucks' very heartfelt apology. Denial just makes them look worse. They clearly wanted the women off the course so a bunch of white men headed out to bully them. Shameful!

 

[sk!mom]

I live in NYC,. I have never not been allowed to use the restrooms in Starbucks. I rarely spend money there.

Yep, when DH and I have traveled- NYC, London. Starbucks is our go to bathroom stop.

My DD21 and a college student was particularly angered by the Starbucks arrest as the same day it happened, she had spent hours in her neighborhood Starbucks using the wifi. As she said, "that's their business model." Come in, stay, meet, and we defy you to smell this coffee all day without buying. She has never been approached and asked to leave, purchase, whatever.

 

[luvsJack]

I'm sick and tired of white people trying to explain away/deny racism. Racism, bigotry, prejudice...will always exist in this country.

Two young men walk into my office.

One is aggravated with some policy but is polite and keeps his frustration under control. I try to help and he leaves.

The second one is aggravated about the same policy but gets agitated, begins cussing and raising his voice, I try to help him but he is still angry and when asked to leave, refuses. I pick up the phone and call campus police.

The first one is white and and the second black. Does that make me racist? What if it was reversed?

 

[luvsJack]

Exactly! The custom, if the group ahead of you is playing more slowly, is to simply ask to "play through." Just as the custom at Starbucks is, "please come sit, take meetings, use our free wifi." My DH was just complaining a couple of weekends ago about a slow group who refused his groups request to play though. His party considered it poor golf etiquette but they didn't do anything except play slower themselves and probably drink more beer than usual.

We want to believe that racism is a part of our dark past but any person of color will tell you that it is very much alive. And thanks to cell phones we now see it for ourselves. The Golf Club could learn from Starbucks' very heartfelt apology. Denial just makes them look worse. They clearly wanted the women off the course so a bunch of white men headed out to bully them. Shameful!

Racism exists there is no doubt about that. No one can deny that it isn’t something from the past. But when every interaction between a white manager, cop, office worker, barista, whatever and a person of color that doesn’t go just the way someone wants it to is seen as racism it makes it really hard to see the real cases.
Sometimes it’s about behavior

 

[PollyannaMom]

Racism, bigotry, prejudice...will always exist in this country.

I hope not!

But I am beginning to wonder if we're doing it wrong. In order to stop people from thinking about race, we're asking them to think about race every time they make a decision.

 

[maxiesmom]

Racism exists there is no doubt about that. No one can deny that it isn’t something from the past. But when every interaction between a white manager, cop, office worker, barista, whatever and a person of color that doesn’t go just the way someone wants it to is seen as racism it makes it really hard to see the real cases.
Sometimes it’s about behavior

And some times it is what it appears to be. Racism.

 

[MamaBelle4]

Two young men walk into my office.

One is aggravated with some policy but is polite and keeps his frustration under control. I try to help and he leaves.

The second one is aggravated about the same policy but gets agitated, begins cussing and raising his voice, I try to help him but he is still angry and when asked to leave, refuses. I pick up the phone and call campus police.

The first one is white and and the second black. Does that make me racist? What if it was reversed?

But that wasn't what happened in either of these incidents being discussed. A more appropriate comparison would be:

Two white men sit in Starbucks for a couple hours, nothing happens.

Two black men sit in Starbucks for a couple hours, police called in for, what was it, loitering?

OR

A group of five black women are confronted several times for "playing too slowly" despite group directly behind them not complaining, police called 2x.

A group of five white women playing too slowly. Allow other golfers to play through. Nothing happens.

Racism isn't treating a person of color how you would treat a white person in the same situation. Racism is NOT treating a person of color how you would treat a white person in the same situation.