Question for Christians...theological stuff...kinda long

[Zurg]

I'll play but take a different path.

I don’t see God as divisible. By definition God is an infinite and ya can’t have two let alone three of them.

So I see Jesus as a physical incarnation of God. One God. That is the already existing God took on a human form.

This was so we could see Him as human and understand Him and love God in a form we can understand. The Old Testament God is a little tough to get you hands around; you get a burning bush, a whisper, and visions in dreams. All a little undefined. Jesus, a human, is a little easier to get a mental picture of.

OK so that’s why I think He was here, literally to put a face on God.

So why the death and resurrection?

Well in part I think in taking human form He could face and defeat the temptations all humans face and a lot more. The temptations in the wilderness and the temptation to just wave a finger and do away with all of the ‘passion of the Christ’ He faced temptations beyond anything any of us will and showed that there is a resurrection after facing them.

I see religion as all about freedom, the freedom to believe or not to in God. God doesn’t come down off the cross or intervene in any other human affairs because to do so would take away our freedom to not believe.

So why is it important to God that we have the ability to NOT beleive? Good question, I think it is that God is love. Love wants something, somebody, to love and to be loved in return.

But what kind of love can we offer in return if there is no choice in it? Abject fear isn't freely offered love. At the risk of being trite, it is like the Sting song, If you love somebody set them free.

OK I am not theologian either but that is my view in a very small nutshell and that’s enough for a board.

 

[KingsFanInRI]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
No no no, now come on. There isn't a need. I don't believe in Christianity(I'm leaning toward taking up buddhism).

then why on earth would you post on a thread that specifically asks a question of Christians (something that I would guess that you are not, but only you and God know for sure)?

 

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by KingsFanInRI
then why on earth would you post on a thread that specifically asks a question of Christians (something that I would guess that you are not, but only you and God know for sure)?

Seek my post and ye shall be rewarded

I have just been wondering if they still carried on that one story

The answer here my friend would be curiousity.

 

[Tinks]

I just want to add (because you've gotten some good responses from others) that God had to be the sacrifice because the sacrifice had to be a perfect one. No human being was/is/can be perfect; therefore, God had to become the perfect sacrifice in our place.

Jews also sacrificed throughout the old testament in keeping with their covenent with God. The sacrifices all had to be a pure, as-white-as-you-could-find, without blemish male lamb. Hence, Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb of the new covenent. Hope that helps.

 

[Concord]

Let me start by stating that I too am a Christian, however I am human as well. Being human I must admit that I have questioned certain aspects of my faith, not in an effort to prove them wrong, but in a desire to help me believe on a daily basis.

Having said that:

With the following assumptions:
God is perfect and the maker of all law and truth.
In Biblical times people sacrificed animals for forgiveness of sins.
We no longer sacrifice animals for this reason.
In place of animal sacrifices God sacrificed Jesus as a human sacrifice without sin (a PERFECT sacrifice.)

My question is this:

Why does God NEED sacrifices. If he makes all the rules, then why did Jesus HAVE to be sacrificed. Jesus' death is always presented in a way that implies that God "had no other way to fix our problem." That is where my question lies. If God is perfect and can make any rule he chooses, why was this sacrifice NEEDED as the ONLY WAY?

It is sometimes difficult to move a question from one's thoughts to the written format, but hopefully my question is clear enough for an answer.

Thank you.

 

[KingsFanInRI]

Concord,

good question, and welcome to the Dis.

The sacrifice, as was so in the Old Testament, was just to show obedience to God's command. Kind of a way to show God that are willing to give our best for Him (remember, the animal that was sacrificed had to be pure, as Christ Himself was pure).

 

[goofy4tink]

I have to say, that, 'The Passion of The Christ' certainly has gotten us talking. This is not a bad thing. And to see how nicely we're all talking and debating. Whether or not we agree on any one religion, it's good to be able to discuss. The only way to achieve tolerance!! Thanks for some great thoughts. Now, I'll go back to my own thinking.

 

[CRB#33]

Zurg! That was awesome!

The one thing I will add is the third part of the triune God. His Holy Spirit. He sends His Spirit to dwell within us when we ask it of Him. It's how we can commune with Him on earth and learn to live the way He wants us to. We can call on this Spirit within us to help us through situations, to learn, to guide, to teach, etc. It's His gift to us after He ascended back to Heaven. That promise that He will always be with us!

 

[Kermit]

I once heard a pastor explain the Trinity by saying that he himself was a father, a husband, and a son. He's just one man, but he has three very distinct roles. God is one being, and He performs three sets of roles as God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

I agree that sacrifice has always been the way that man has displayed obedience to God. God could have had us be obedient any way, but that's the way He chose. Death is the ultimate sacrifice. The details have changed a little bit with the New Covenant, but it's still basically the same thing.

I guess the basic answer to the question is that Jesus didn't HAVE to die in that God could have just changed the way that people show they belong to Him. But His plan was already perfect, for reasons we'll never fully understand while we're here, and Jesus did have to die for us within the framework that had been set up thousands of years previously.

 

[tkd lisa]

Another thing that no one has brought up is the proof (assuming that you believe in the Word of God as proof) that Jesus was the final sacrifice that God required. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil in the Holy of Holies was torn from top to bottom. I believe that this indicates that we are no longer required to be separated from God due to the sacrifice made by Jesus. Our church just completed a series of Bible study on how the Jewish temple applies to the Christian life. It was very interesting.

And Zurg, I agree, what a great post you made.

 

[wuv tigger]

Originally posted by Concord

Why does God NEED sacrifices. If he makes all the rules, then why did Jesus HAVE to be sacrificed. Jesus' death is always presented in a way that implies that God "had no other way to fix our problem." That is where my question lies. If God is perfect and can make any rule he chooses, why was this sacrifice NEEDED as the ONLY WAY?
Thank you.

This is a hard subject, but I will give my .02

I would change your statement a little. God is perfect because he cannot make any rule he chooses. He is a perfect reflection of the "best" rule which is why he is perfect.

In human terms, if the judge arbitrarily changed the rules at sentencing and let the criminals go free we would be outraged. He cannot change the rules just because he is the judge.

From a theological viewpoint, all humans have made bad actions/thoughts/choices = "sinned" The penalty for sin that God has told us is death. All sin = All must die

God also told us that someone else can pay your penalty = Jesus A life must be exhanged for your life. Prior to Jesus this was done by animal life. This was a temporary solution because animals are sinless, but by creation not choice.

Jesus did not sin, so did not have to die but chose to die so that people who had sinned could receive life. Because Jesus never sinned death could not contain him and he resurrected and lives today.

Baptism and faith unite you with Jesus. He paid your penalty and you live in him.

In this way God's law is upheld. All who sin die and the penalty is paid by Jesus.
In this way God's mercy is upheld. All can live through Christ.

The judge did not arbitrarily change the law, but the full penalty was executed - but the accused goes free. This is called the Gospel= good news.

All humans must either pay the penalty themselves or have it paid by Jesus.

This is the logic of the Christian faith. If you are asking why this way and not another way I do not really know the answer. It is the way that God revealed in the Bible. Since we believe Jesus is God, then that kind of settles the issue. Other religions have different answers to these questions, but I do not think that they adequately address the concepts of justice and mercy for the most part.

David

PS It is hard to express my thoughts in writing, but if you have any further questions I will try to answer

 

[Zurg]

Thanks tkd lisa and CRB#33, thanks for your kind words I wish I could claim I was all that smart but really it is just the things I was taught growing up and am still learning. I can point anyone in the direction of more details if interested but with respect to everyones freedom of understanding will not put much more here.

More importantly thanks to ALL the posters and readers of this thread. I appeciate a civil conversation and this is a topic that can quickly loose civility.

Kermit that is EXACTY my view on the trinity of God.

It seems to me that the value to the whole Mel's movie thing is that it is creating conversations and openness and tolerance are keys to the conversations of differences in understanding. I think that outcome is a good thing and the whole pont of freedom of speach.

Now verging off a little as I do, I'll add two quick points.

Frist if you beleive Christ as God then you by definition should appreciate that it wasn't the Jews, Romans or any other sub group that "killed" Him. He came to give us a better appreciation of Himself and part of that was the struggle for our freedom I mentioned above. So the end was His doing in assuring our freedom.

That the world needed a better view is evident form the state the human race was in at the time and the states we can all still be in in our hearts and minds now.

Second. If there is a God, as I see God, that is infinitie Love and Wisdom, there is one of them as you can't have multipule infinites. God wants to love and be loved. He made all of us and he made all of us with only a little view of Him.

He wants us all to love Him and creates the best path for each of us to see Him (Her if that works better for you.) Those paths aren't all the same and that is part of the plan. God gives everyone a path to see Him, some paths are Jews some are Christains, some are Islam some are none of the above.

It is either all made up or all part of the plan. I see it as all part of the plan and finding a path to God the point of it all.

All religion is about living life and the life of religion is to do try to learn and do good.

 

[manchurianbrownbear]

Thanks everyone for all the great posts!

chadfromdallas, I think you have more faith than any real Christian. IMHO, it takes a lot more faith to believe that the universe randomly evolved into what it is today than to believe that God created it !

I'm curious, how many people take the Bible as the literal, inspired word of God?

There has been a lot of conversation about the historical accuracy of "The Passion Of The Christ" and it seems that there are a lot of people, including Christians, who are at least willing to consider the possibility that there are errors in the Bible.

Many people obviously believe the accounts of miracles in the Bible, (including Christ's miraculous sacrifice for our sin!) but don't believe that God could miraculously protect the accuracy of His word through the centuries.

 

[Zurg]

...it seems that there are a lot of people, including Christians, who are at least willing to consider the possibility that there are errors in the Bible.

I don't think it was origainaly in King James' english. I recognize that whisper down the lane is an issue. As a whole I try to see it at the Word of God.

 

[Pembo]

Christ's death and subsequent ressurection was neccessary for two reasons.....one was to show God's willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice for us, the death of his own son. It also provides a means of salvation, by which man can accept or reject God's payment for our sins in the shedding of his son's blood. The acceptance or rejection of this gift (the offering of Jesus as a sacrifice) is, according to the bible, the only determining factor in spending eternity either in Heaven or Hell, "not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:9

Um......just read over Ephesians 2, in 3 different Bibles, I didn't see anything about the "rejection of this gift as a determining faction in spending eternity in Hell."

I'm curious, how many people take the Bible as the literal, inspired word of God?

As Zurg said the Bible was not written in King James English for a very long time. To take it as a literal word is not a good idea. If so there are a lot of things in the old testament that are not being followed by those who say they believe in the literal word. It's all in how you interpret it.

 

[manchurianbrownbear]

Um......just read over Ephesians 2, in 3 different Bibles, I didn't see anything about the "rejection of this gift as a determining faction in spending eternity in Hell."

John 3:36 may be a better verse to make that point.

I agree 100% that everyone has the right to interpret the Bible themself. God created us all with a free will to believe / worship as we please.

As Zurg articulately posted earlier, God created the human race so we could have a relationship; love and be loved. Without a free will, how much could our love, faith, worship mean to God. If we were "programmed" by God to do "the right thing" without the option to do anything else, it seems the relationship would be pretty meaningless. I don't have a vese from the Bible to back that up, but I could quote Zurg !

I believe in moral absolutes, but I'm very squeamish about seeing morality legislated, because 1) it interferes with God's plan and 2) I don't believe it works in most cases!

 

[tkd lisa]

Manchurian, I do believe the Bible is the literal word of God. I also believe that there are inconsistencies in the current translations (I ought to believe it, I've had them pointed out to me!). Again in agreement with Zurg, many men touched these words during the transition to today's Bibles (and no I'm not hard and fast KJV, modern words help people understand in many ways!).

 

[Pembo]

John 3:36 is John talking not Jesus or God. Read the whole chapter.

 

[ead79]

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and I believe in a literal interpretation. As far as not practicing the laws of the Old Testament, I believe that Christ's death and resurrection fulfilled the need for things such as animal sacrifice, not eating unclean meats, etc. I see Christ as the fulfillment of all of God's promises to save mankind.

I also agree with those who posted that God doesn't want robots. He gave us all the free will to choose or reject Him so that we are not forced to worship or even believe that He exists. He wants an authentic relationship with us, and if He forced us to believe, the relationship would not be authentic.

I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection paid the ultimate sacrifice for my sin and for everyone else's sin as well (including those who don't believe in Him or Christ). I have chosen to accept this wonderful gift of salvation and a relationship with the Living God. I strive to live my life in such a way (though goodness knows I fail so often) that I reflect my Lord and Savior. I could never have earned salvation by my own good deeds, and I needed Christ to pay my penalty. His love for me truly is beyond all my ability to comprehend. To me, that is one of the most beautiful parts of the salvation of Christ. That God loved us while we were still sinners (see Romans 5:8). Not that he only loves us after we try to live a good life or do good things and help others, but that His love for me is just as strong when I am in the midst of doing something that is wrong and breaks His heart. Thank you, Lord, for the difference you have made in my life and for the calm assurance I have that You are always with me. Thank you for Your Love, and for the sacrifice of your only Son.

 

[firecracker]

Your orginal post included the resurrection in your question and no one has really addressed it. So I thought I'd give it a try.

Just as Christ had to be the sacrifice to pay the payment for our sin, He also had to defeat Death and the enemy to make that payment valid.

If He had died and paid the penalty, but had no victory over death, what good would it be? He is ultimately victorious over ALL creation and created, including evil. If He's not, why believe in Him, why search for Him, why love Him?

For me, there is great comfort, gratitude, peace, etc. in His death, but even more in His resurrection. What do I have to fear about death? Ablsolutely NOTHING! He handled it, he conquered it, and I can trust Him. If he loved me enough to die like he did, I can trust Him with everything.

Re: the accuracy of the Bible, for me it's all semantics. God is MUCH more concerned with the condition of my dark heart and how I respond to His gift of salvation, how I treat others, etc. than He is with how well-preserved the Scriptures currently are. He has given us so many beautiful passages in Scripture (esp. Psalms) to comfort us and bring us closer to him. Frankly, I try my best to avoid the controversial subjects.

Here's my philosophy in a nutshell...Jesus said that the 2 greatest commandments are to love God w/your whole heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. (See Matthew 22:37 ff) I figure that once I have mastered the 2 greatest commandments, THEN I can argue semantics of divine inspiration, baptism, communion, etc. It seems that no matter how hard I try, I can't even get the 2 most important things right for very long!

I'm so glad He loves me despite my failures...such a neat God! What other god/deity/religion loves like our grace-giving Father? NONE!





(sorry so long!)