Question about flying with baby on lap

[katerkat]

The risk of your child dying in a car accident, even properly restrained, is far greater than the risk of them being killed on an airplane. It is more likely that your child will die in an accident driving to WDW (or wherever) than flying there. You are taking a risk every time you drive with your child, greater than the risk I take (actually, took, as I now buy him a seat) when I fly with him unrestrained.

According to a couple of Naval Safety Center statistics professors, the chances of ANYONE dying in a plane crash are approx. 1 in 2,089,232. (In two round trip flights.) The chances of ANYONE dying in a car crash (based on a 1200 round trip journey) is 1 in 88,263. That's 24 times more likely to die in the car.

 

[disneyldwjr]

Every parent endangers their child every day. Do you know any that don't?

How so? I am interesting in reading what you have to say, seriously.

 

[disneyldwjr]

The risk of your child dying in a car accident, even properly restrained, is far greater than the risk of them being killed on an airplane. It is more likely that your child will die in an accident driving to WDW (or wherever) than flying there. You are taking a risk every time you drive with your child, greater than the risk I take (actually, took, as I now buy him a seat) when I fly with him unrestrained.

According to a couple of Naval Safety Center statistics professors, the chances of ANYONE dying in a plane crash are approx. 1 in 2,089,232. (In two round trip flights.) The chances of ANYONE dying in a car crash (based on a 1200 round trip journey) is 1 in 88,263. That's 24 times more likely to die in the car.

Your stats are very interesting, as are most stats ( I LOVE stats) to me. BUT.....stats mean nothing if you are THE ONE.
There is some irony here, when you go to Disney it is supposed to be (if you believe everything that is written here) "for the kids". You are supposed to bend and bow to the children, don't smoke here because of the kids, don't spit on the ground, because of the kids, don't swear because of the kids, etc. (most of these I totally agree with, btw), however, when you take an interest in the safety of one of the "kids" and express your opinion it is taken as a critical remark or that you are judging someone's parenting skills.
For me, that is not the case, I am truly interested in seeing children enjoy their trips in the safetest way possible. What anyone does with their children is their business, but, when advice is asked for, expect it to be given and it could happen that it is not what they wanted to hear.
And, anyone that wants to leave their children home and hire a sitter while doing errands has a BIG from me.

 

[NotUrsula]

That was 40 years ago and of course most didn't know better.

Ah, but the automakers knew. The NTSB also knew, and as far back as that, they were engaging in a very public campaign to convince parents to restrain children for their safety.

The very first US patent for a child safety restraint for a car was issued in 1927 [patent ID #01723899]. Granted, it wasn't designed to protect a child in an accident, but as long as there have been cars, people have understood that they posed a danger to child passengers if the child was not secured in a seat. Seatbelts became mandatory in US-made cars starting in 1967, and carseats were commercially available in the US as early as 1968. http://ultimategto.com/1968/c3001.gif

(A side note: my parents got their first car shortly before I was born, and Dad used to enjoy taking me for rides. As an infant in the early 60's I rode around in a padded wooden cot that was secured by d-ring straps bolted to the floor under the seat. He created it because he was afraid I might go through the windshield if he had to stop suddenly -- the car was old, and it didn't have safety glass. No seatbelts in it for the adults, but the baby was bolted down. My dad was a very helicopter parent for his day. His friends, and my non-driving mother, used to laugh at him for putting me in the cot, but he persisted.)

The first US law that made carseat use mandatory was passed in Tennessee in 1977, and by 1985 they were mandatory in every state. There are penalties in place if you violate the law, but lots of people still do violate it every day, all over the country. I don't think there are that many who razor out the seat belts (why not just stuff them down the back of the seat?), but there are plenty who don't use them.

First-world commercial jet airline travel is statistically the safest form of travel available on planet earth. Major airlines tend to have a very good record that way. Therefore, when someone in that blue uniform with the wings on it tells the average passenger that it is OK to sit on one of those jets holding a baby on your lap, the average passenger takes that uniformed person at his or her word, and assumes that if it is legal, then it must be safe. Really. You might not think that average passenger has any common sense, but they don't see it that way. The average passenger doesn't even understand how big jets stay airborne -- they are taking it on faith. Of course they are going to believe what they are told about lap babies, especially when the law backs up the answer they are given. It doesn't make them reckless, it just makes them naive. I think that the most effective way to help protect their kids is to help educate them, but without making judgemental remarks.

 

[salmoneous]

How so? I am interesting in reading what you have to say, seriously.

endangering your kid. Every time you let your kid get in the same airspace of another (potentially disease carrying) human, you put your kid at risk. If you let your kid ride a bicycle, downhill ski, play a spot, etc. there is a risk.

Not all these risks are exactly the same. But they are all risks. Parents choose which risks are acceptable for their children. Parenting is all about deciding what risks are acceptable for YOUR child. YOUR kid, YOUR choices. Unless you are never choosing to subject your kids to any risk, what gives you the right to criticize others for doing the same?

 

[salmoneous]

but, when advice is asked for, expect it to be given and it could happen that it is not what they wanted to hear.

Had somebody asked for advice as to the safest way for their kid to fly, I'd agree with you. If you look back, nobody has asked that question in this thread.

 

[katerkat]

And, anyone that wants to leave their children home and hire a sitter while doing errands has a BIG from me.

Heck, I leave the boy with his daddy when I go to the store - not because of risk, but because it's so much easier to shop without a tag-along making pretty eyes at the sample ladies to get some food.

I know stats don't mean anything if it's your child that is injured or killed - but statistically, the chances of it being YOUR child are pretty slim. Whereas the chances of your child dying in a car accident are higher. And probably their chances of being injured on a bike, trampoline, choking, etc., are all higher as well. But plenty of people still have trampolines despite the fact that some insurance companies won't insure them.

Heck, if you want to go deep into the Mommy Wars, you could say that women who don't breastfeed (doesn't matter if it's a can't or don't) are risking their child's life and future. Studies have shown that it's the better alternative. But still plenty of women chose formula. At the possible expense of their child's future. You could say it was worth the risk because your child rarely gets sick and isn't obese and has a great IQ (as my son survived his several flights as a lap baby), but my neighbor has a formula baby who just got tubes in his ears due to infections and is a little bit behind developmentally.

Personally, I just go with we all choose which risks are acceptable and which aren't to ourselves. Because we all make screwed up decisions about our kids if they're not living in a plastic bubble 24/7.

 

[DaisyD]

Had somebody asked for advice as to the safest way for their kid to fly, I'd agree with you. If you look back, nobody has asked that question in this thread.

Actually the OP questioned the safety of being buckled in or not. Did you miss that? It is right here:




Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 421 I have never flowen before and have no idea of what to expect. In fact, the reason I've never been on an airplane is because I'm scared to death of flying. DH convinced me that flying is safer than trying to drive from MI. in December, especially with kids as young as ours. I thought that if it wasn't a requirement that they be buckled in, it must be safe.
We had changed our minds and wanted to buy her a seat, however, I checked the assigned seating chart and the 2 seats next to me are now taken. Now what?
__________________

 

[TDC Nala]

It all boils down to money in the case of flying. Is $110 each way too much to pay for your child? Regret is the worse feeling in the world.

well, there was that post that mentioned a study that said parents would start driving places if they had to pay to get their infants onto a plane.

Is the solution to give a free seat to the infants? That wouldn't help the airlines stay in business much.

 

[disneyldwjr]

endangering your kid. Every time you let your kid get in the same airspace of another (potentially disease carrying) human, you put your kid at risk. If you let your kid ride a bicycle, downhill ski, play a spot, etc. there is a risk.

Not all these risks are exactly the same. But they are all risks. Parents choose which risks are acceptable for their children. Parenting is all about deciding what risks are acceptable for YOUR child. YOUR kid, YOUR choices. Unless you are never choosing to subject your kids to any risk, what gives you the right to criticize others for doing the same?

I see what you are saying and I don't believe I criticized anyone, I spoke about what I believe, nothing more.

 

[disneyldwjr]

Heck, I leave the boy with his daddy when I go to the store - not because of risk, but because it's so much easier to shop without a tag-along making pretty eyes at the sample ladies to get some food.

I know stats don't mean anything if it's your child that is injured or killed - but statistically, the chances of it being YOUR child are pretty slim. Whereas the chances of your child dying in a car accident are higher. And probably their chances of being injured on a bike, trampoline, choking, etc., are all higher as well. But plenty of people still have trampolines despite the fact that some insurance companies won't insure them.

Heck, if you want to go deep into the Mommy Wars, you could say that women who don't breastfeed (doesn't matter if it's a can't or don't) are risking their child's life and future. Studies have shown that it's the better alternative. But still plenty of women chose formula. At the possible expense of their child's future. You could say it was worth the risk because your child rarely gets sick and isn't obese and has a great IQ (as my son survived his several flights as a lap baby), but my neighbor has a formula baby who just got tubes in his ears due to infections and is a little bit behind developmentally.

Personally, I just go with we all choose which risks are acceptable and which aren't to ourselves. Because we all make screwed up decisions about our kids if they're not living in a plastic bubble 24/7.

Oh G-d NO, not the Mommy Wars. I cannot deal with that. I have been there, done that and have three wonderful adult children.

And, I do understand what you are saying about stats. BUT, for ME, I chose the purchase the seat option, because I know a lot about stats and they do often lie or give a false sense of security.
It is truly amazing with all that lies out there to harm a child, we all managed to survive.

 

[disneyldwjr]

Actually the OP questioned the safety of being buckled in or not. Did you miss that? It is right here:




Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 421 I have never flowen before and have no idea of what to expect. In fact, the reason I've never been on an airplane is because I'm scared to death of flying. DH convinced me that flying is safer than trying to drive from MI. in December, especially with kids as young as ours. I thought that if it wasn't a requirement that they be buckled in, it must be safe.
We had changed our minds and wanted to buy her a seat, however, I checked the assigned seating chart and the 2 seats next to me are now taken. Now what?
__________________

Thank you Daisy, saved me a bunch of back tracking.

 

[disneyldwjr]

well, there was that post that mentioned a study that said parents would start driving places if they had to pay to get their infants onto a plane.

Is the solution to give a free seat to the infants? That wouldn't help the airlines stay in business much.

If the plane is not full and the parents have safety seats, the airlines often let the child fly free.

If it does come to having to pay for the kids to fly, then I guess we will see a lot more drivers or parents who have to pony up the fare. It will be the parent's choice to do what is correct for them.

 

[katerkat]

It is truly amazing with all that lies out there to harm a child, we all managed to survive.

It is, isn't it! And for most parents, it's just a question of acceptable risk. You bought the seat. I got the seat for free about 75% of the time, and then started paying when it became imperative that I have a guaranteed seat. However, I also let my son out of his carseat for about five to ten minutes on the plane because he can't sit still that long. So I'm still not a perfect parent.

 

[disneyldwjr]

It is, isn't it! And for most parents, it's just a question of acceptable risk. You bought the seat. I got the seat for free about 75% of the time, and then started paying when it became imperative that I have a guaranteed seat. However, I also let my son out of his carseat for about five to ten minutes on the plane because he can't sit still that long. So I'm still not a perfect parent.

Perfect parent? LOL, name one of us that is. When you achieve that lofty status let me know, ok?
Speaking of risks, my daughter rode Arabs in horse shows. Now, there is a risk with very high stats for injury. See, not perfect here either.

 

[goofy4tink]

Well, for me it's like this...if I had a child young/small enough to be in a carseat, I would have said carseat on the plane, in a paid for seat. Why? I'm with the others who posted that I want to freemdom of not dealing with said child the entire trip. I want to be able to read a book, enjoy a snack, go to the bathroom. My child should be able to nap, rather than be jostled around by me. My kids have always realized that the car does not move until all are strapped in...be it in their car seat when they were younger or just the seat belts as they got old enough. Same thing on a plane. I have been subjected to youngsters, who could have been in a car seat on the plane, pulling on my seat back, sticking their arms/hands/feet through the opening inbetween the seats, etc. While I do understand that there is going to be 'interaction' between passengers, it just irks me when I'm made uncomfortable by someone else's child. Yes, I do understand that some children do not like being restrained in a car seat. But, I have to ask...do you allow that child to just sit on your lap when you are in the car? In our family it's just the thing we do...get in the car, strap up....get up in the morning, get dressed before leaving the house...same thing.

I would much rather pay for the flight for my child rather than drive to Florida with an 18 mo. old. Again...are you making the drive with the child in the carseat? What's the difference in using it on the plane vs in the car? I'm not trying to be argumentative..I'm really not. But I just can't imagine flying with my child in my lap for an entire flight....cost of child's airfare? $250. My peace of mind and sanity? Priceless!!

As I said in the beginning of this post...this is how it works for ME....I'm not saying everyone should do it my way. It may not be the best method for someone else's family...this is just my way.

 

[jodifla]

The reality is, most parents don't use car seats on planes for their kids under 2. On the 4 flights I took in the last five days, I saw about a dozen kids under 4, and only one car seat.

We always flew with DS as a lap child under 2. We flew a lot, so it wasn't a $200 savings, it was thousands.

But we always gate checked our car seat, and about half the time we were able to bring it on the plane.

 

[bdcp]

My boys are 20 and 22, but when my oldest was 10 months old I flew to TX from VA to see my grandfater one last time and introduce him to this only great grandchild at the time. No one thought anything of flying with a child on their lap. It's what everyone did. And he never fought sitting in his car seat nor did his brother. Car seats were just being made available and laws were just starting to go into effect then. The risk is there, but very unlikely. I did check my car seat and use it in cars while we were there and my family thought I was nuts for that because "it wasn't the law there yet". It's like a lot of other things, we didnt' wear bike helmets, wrist guards, etc when riding bikes or skateboards and we all survived growing up, but now everyone is protected and padded. You have to do what you're comfortable with. I held my son and in like many other things when you have children, my needs were secondary and not really a big deal. I think if you're going to make the decision to get a seat it should be about safety and nothing else.

 

[NotUrsula]

Originally posted by bdcp:
I think if you're going to make the decision to get a seat it should be about safety and nothing else.

I disagree. It is a given that once you decide that your family will fly, using a seat is the safer choice, though every parent's threshold of "safe enough" is going to differ within the limits of the law.

IMO, the comfort factor, for both the parent and the child, is a large and legitimate part of the choice, and it is important to address it. While it is secondary to safety, it is by no means irrelevant, and for many parents, it is the point that tips the scale. I always like to point out the comfort advantages of using a seat: familiarity, inability to escape without help; increased likelihood of napping, decreased likelihood of throwing up down Mommy's blouse, etc. I also felt that it was easier to keep my child from unduly disturbing other passengers when the child was restrained, and I think that parents SHOULD do their best to curb bothersome behaviour when it is realistic to be able to do so. In most cases the carseat will help with that if you plan ahead (and yes, it is possible to prevent seat-kicking.)

Of course, there are others who are fairly likely to advise the parent NOT to use a seat for comfort reasons; the greatest of these being a reduction in the amount of luggage taken to the gate. My feeling about that is related to equipment: with the right gear that is not a hardship, and if you are fond of travel, you should make it a point to have baby gear that is well-suited to travel. (Personally I think all baby gear should be suitable for travel -- IMO, clunkiness is a sin in juvenile product design.)

 

[bdcp]

Er,okay. Back in the Olden days, my son actually sat on my lap, stood on my lap and was happy to be with me on the plane. He was also a great traveler in the car, as was his brother because we didnt' have to entertain them every minute because they didn't expect it. No one kicked a seat, wandered around, threw up down my blouse (although that is part of being a mom), etc. Not every child sitting in a car seat is quiet either so that can be very bothersome when they're screaming to get out. My actual point was until 15-20 years ago, very few people even thought about buying a seat (full price) for a toddler. It wasn't and still isn't required for under 2 because the reality is a toddler is happier sitting in mom's lap than in their car seat if they think they have a choice which they will sitting next to her. It's recommended but not required to buy a seat. We never left our driveway without seatbelts/carseats buckled properly either. In fact, my boys used to get upset if they didn't get completely buckled in when I started the car. Flying isn't the same thing. Flying is much much safer. That's why I said it's a decision each parent needs to make.