PVSA Ruling

[NancyIL]

So Vanc to SD is fine, (not US to US) Hawaii to Vanc (not US to US) is fine but Hawaii to SD is not fine because they are both US ports. That's likely why Disney is based out of Vancouver for the Alaska cruises.

DCL sailed round-trip to Alaska from Seattle in 2012, with a foreign port stop in Victoria, BC. I think they moved back to Vancouver because they got a lot of complaints about their crappy Seattle itinerary!

 

[DahliaRW]

That's likely why Disney is based out of Vancouver for the Alaska cruises.

Nope. It's because there is the right distance from Vancouver up into Alaska to do nice and neat 7 day cruises. Seattle is too far away to do 7 days without sailing on rougher waters and having to skip a port. It does help with the repo situation, some lines have done a seattle to vancouver repo then a vancouver to somewhere in california repo to avoid sailing the ship empty.

 

[NancyIL]

Nope. It's because there is the right distance from Vancouver up into Alaska to do nice and neat 7 day cruises. Seattle is too far away to do 7 days without sailing on rougher waters and having to skip a port. It does help with the repo situation, some lines have done a seattle to vancouver repo then a vancouver to somewhere in california repo to avoid sailing the ship empty.

There are plenty of ships that sail round-trip to Alaska from Seattle in 7 nights.

 

[ilovetexas]

we currently have the B2B, Hawaii to Vancouver to San Diego. I understand not allowed. Just talked with a supervisor. I thought the B2B2B would be legal. Vancouver to Hawaii to Vancouver to San Diego, it starts in Vancouver and ends in San Diego. DCL Supervisor told me cannot do it. I do not understand why. it starts in a foreign port and ends in a US port.

It's not the Vancouver to San Diego part that is the problem. It is the Hawaii to San Diego. It only applies to the beginning and ending ports and not the in between stops. Disney (from what I understand) only cruises from Vancouver round trip to Alaska, correct? So it's not starting in a US port.

The PVSA essentially says - No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

So Vanc to SD is fine, (not US to US) Hawaii to Vanc (not US to US) is fine but Hawaii to SD is not fine because they are both US ports. That's likely why Disney is based out of Vancouver for the Alaska cruises.

There is no Hawaii to San Diego. I'm assuming mocodis is talking about the Wonder in Sept 2015. Here is the B2B2B itinerary that DCL told her was a violation of the PVSA:

Sept 7 - Vancouver to Honolulu
Sept 17 - Honolulu to Vancouver
Sept 27 - Vancouver to San Diego

There is absolutely no violation of the PVSA there.

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

[mocodis]

There is no Hawaii to San Diego. I'm assuming mocodis is talking about the Wonder in Sept 2015. Here is the B2B2B itinerary that DCL told her was a violation of the PVSA:

Sept 7 - Vancouver to Honolulu
Sept 17 - Honolulu to Vancouver
Sept 27 - Vancouver to San Diego

There is absolutely no violation of the PVSA there.

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

Yes, this is the b2b2b I am talking about that dcl supervisor told me is in violation. I see no violation. Vancouver to San Diego

 

[NancyIL]

Yes, this is the b2b2b I am talking about that dcl supervisor told me is in violation. I see no violation. Vancouver to San Diego

DCL goes from one extreme of ineptitude (laxness about the law) to another (over zealousness where it isn't needed)!

 

[luv2sleep]

So it's Hawaii to Vancouver/Vancouver to San Diego that's in violation?

 

[DahliaRW]

There are plenty of ships that sail round-trip to Alaska from Seattle in 7 nights.

Yes, but less port time and they have to incorporate a port day in Canada versus just doing Alaska ports. It's not as easy to do. For example, a 2015 July RCI 7 night RT cruise from Seattle stops at Juneau, Skagway, and Victoria as well as cruising through Tracy Arm. No Ketchikan on that itenerary, and only 2 actual Alaskan ports. So like I said:

without sailing on rougher waters and having to skip a port

Princess does have one 7 night from Seattle that visits the same ports as DCL, but their Tracy Arm sailing time is from 5am to 9am, they only have a half day in Juneau (same day at TA), and their port time in victoria is 7:00pm to midnight. It's a strange itinerary.

 

[NancyIL]

So it's Hawaii to Vancouver/Vancouver to San Diego that's in violation?

Correct. Quite a few people booked Honolulu to Vancouver and Vancouver to San Diego as a b2b. Because the passengers would embark in Honolulu and permanently disembark in San Diego (from one US port to a different US port) without making a distant foreign port stop - it violates the PVSA.

 

[NancyIL]

Yes, but less port time and they have to incorporate a port day in Canada versus just doing Alaska ports. It's not as easy to do. For example, a 2015 July RCI 7 night RT cruise from Seattle stops at Juneau, Skagway, and Victoria as well as cruising through Tracy Arm. No Ketchikan on that itenerary, and only 2 actual Alaskan ports.

Most cruise ships that stop in Victoria do so for only a few hours in the late evening (6 or 7 p.m. - midnight). That RCI ship spends a regular port day in Victoria, and thus drops Ketchikan. That isn't the norm for most Alaska cruises that sail from Seattle.

 

[DahliaRW]

Most cruise ships that stop in Victoria do so for only a few hours in the late evening (6 or 7 p.m. - midnight). That RCI ship spends a regular port day in Victoria, and thus drops Ketchikan. That isn't the norm for most Alaska cruises that sail from Seattle.

Gotcha. Did a search on CC and seems like about half the cruise lines do just Skagway and Juneau and the other half do all 3 from Seattle. Don't have time to compare time in port, but if the DCL/RCI/Princess comparisons hold, the cruises that leave from Vancouver have more time in each port.

 

[NancyIL]

Princess does have one 7 night from Seattle that visits the same ports as DCL, but their Tracy Arm sailing time is from 5am to 9am, they only have a half day in Juneau (same day at TA), and their port time in victoria is 7:00pm to midnight. It's a strange itinerary.

I agree with you that 7-night Alaska itineraries from Seattle are inferior to those that sail from Vancouver. However, there are more round-trip Alaska cruises that sail from Seattle than from Vancouver - in spite of their inferior itineraries. Why? Because it's usually cheaper to fly to Seattle than to Vancouver, and there are no border crossing headaches.

 

[NancyIL]

Gotcha. Did a search on CC and seems like about half the cruise lines do just Skagway and Juneau and the other half do all 3 from Seattle. Don't have time to compare time in port, but if the DCL/RCI/Princess comparisons hold, the cruises that leave from Vancouver have more time in each port.

That was the biggest problem with the DCL cruises from Seattle in 2012 - port times that were too short.

 

[lilpooh108]

Nope. It's because there is the right distance from Vancouver up into Alaska to do nice and neat 7 day cruises. Seattle is too far away to do 7 days without sailing on rougher waters and having to skip a port. It does help with the repo situation, some lines have done a seattle to vancouver repo then a vancouver to somewhere in california repo to avoid sailing the ship empty.

We sailed DCL rt Seattle for Alaska back in 2012. The only disadvantage IMO was the shorter port time for Juneau. RT Alaska actually included Victoria, which RT Vancouver does not. The waters were only rough going out of the Puget Sound on the 1st night going into the Inside Passage.

We preferred having the extra port and cheaper cost of flying into Seattle. If DCL ever goes back to Seattle, we'll do Alaska again.

Our ports for that DCL Alaskan were Ketchikan, Juneau, Skagway and Victoria, cruising Tracy Arm.

I did the SD to Vancouver Repo this past month and while Vancouver was beautiful, it was a long day driving to Seattle for an overnight before flying out.

There are plenty of ships that sail round-trip to Alaska from Seattle in 7 nights.

Yup.

 

[NancyIL]

We sailed DCL rt Seattle for Alaska back in 2012. The only disadvantage IMO was the shorter port time for Juneau. RT Alaska actually included Victoria, which RT Vancouver does not. The waters were only rough going out of the Puget Sound on the 1st night going into the Inside Passage.

We preferred having the extra port and cheaper cost of flying into Seattle. If DCL ever goes back to Seattle, we'll do Alaska again.

Round-trip Alaska cruises from Seattle must stop in a foreign port because of the PVSA, and most do so in Victoria. Round-trip and one-way cruises to/from Vancouver have no need to stop in another Canadian port.

 

[DahliaRW]

I agree with you that 7-night Alaska itineraries from Seattle are inferior to those that sail from Vancouver. However, there are more round-trip Alaska cruises that sail from Seattle than from Vancouver - in spite of their inferior itineraries. Why? Because it's usually cheaper to fly to Seattle than to Vancouver, and there are no border crossing headaches.

While there are more RT cruises from Seattle (because you can't start in Seattle and end up in Alaska), there is about the same amount of Alaska cruises (RT + one-way) from or ending in Vancouver. They just have more options due to being a foreign (non-US) port. Both ports have a little over 800,000 revenue passengers each year.

While I agree the border crossing can be a hassle, it's really not all that hard to fly into Seattle and travel up to Vancouver if you want to avoid the high airfare up there. It's under 3 hours. Similar to Seattle to Portland, just with the border crossing added in. Maybe I don't see it as a big deal because I'm a local and have driven up there several times. Even when the Olympics were in Vancouver, it only took us 30 minutes to cross the border. And that is the longest I've ever waited.

 

[NancyIL]

Nope. It's because there is the right distance from Vancouver up into Alaska to do nice and neat 7 day cruises. Seattle is too far away to do 7 days without sailing on rougher waters and having to skip a port. It does help with the repo situation, some lines have done a seattle to vancouver repo then a vancouver to somewhere in california repo to avoid sailing the ship empty.

I missed this the first time I read it. That is exactly what happened in 2012 when DCL allowed people to book the first and last Alaska cruises and the repos as b2b cruises - which violates the PVSA! DCL sailed from LA to Vancouver (repo) and Vancouver to Seattle (first Alaska cruise) in May 2012, and from Seattle to Vancouver (last Alaska cruise) and Vancouver to LA (repo) in Sept. 2012. DCL allowed the May b2b cruisers to do both cruises. However, they must've gotten into a heap o' trouble, because shortly after that - those on the Sept. 2012 b2b had to cancel one.

 

[jlemieu1]

This whole violation really has me mad. Without going into details I know exactly the data and format of what the a cruise line send the DHS/CBP. It is the exact same thing as the airline and its also used for cruise lines. If they have different PNR and clears customs it resets.

Technical details on web. A little boring sorry.
https://www.iata.org/iata/passenger...II A PAXLST Message Implementation Guide.pdf

 

[mocodis]

This whole violation really has me mad. Without going into details I know exactly the data and format of what the a cruise line send the DHS/CBP. It is the exact same thing as the airline and its also used for cruise lines. If they have different PNR and clears customs it resets.

Technical details on web. A little boring sorry.
https://www.iata.org/iata/passenger...II A PAXLST Message Implementation Guide.pdf

My wife is on the Wonder this week, so she will be changing our 2015 cruises to
Vancouver to Hawaii
Hawaii to Vancouver
and cancelling the Vancouver to San Diego unless dcl gets it straight and allows it

 

[serrem]

Why doesn't someone in Congress push to amend the PVSA law? The law was enacted 124 years ago when the world's and America's economies were very different from what they are today.

I'm sure there would be support for this change from the cruise industry and from tourism groups in American ports that might derive more business if the law were changed. There would probably be minimal opposition from the American shipbuilding industry, which is a shadow of its former self.

There would be numerous benefits for passengers if this archaic law were changed. Not only could they do itineraries like Honolulu to San Diego, cruise lines like Disney could plan more cruises to American ports (like Savannah and Charleston) and fewer to squalid foreign ports like Nassau.

Write your congressperson. It's absurd that our cruise choices are restricted by a complicated 1886 law that was designed to protect an industry that for the most part no longer exists.