Puppy - from 'breeder' or regular home?

[marie1203]

They've bred shepherds for 30+ years and yes they test for the hip condition known in German Shepherds - you don't know them, so how dare you judge them??

One of their female schauzer's just had 5 puppies, all died - she's now "retired from the puppy business" and will be a lap dog, she's sweet and my kids grandma's favorite. None of their females has more then one litter per year.

Who are you to state - "if they do it for the money ?this? dogs have not been genetically tested."

One of the shepherds is a search and rescue dog.

Confused? I was replying to the "Run if they are will to negotiate price." comment.

I am sorry but genetic testing extensive like it should be done cost thousands of dollars, vet visits while pregnancy last and before pregnancy, are not cheap and usually they barely break even. Dogs should not be breed until they are 2 or older and should be breed every other year. So think about. The initial cost of the dog with breeding right are in the thousands, plus all the DNA testing, I remember my brother did blood work and some other things right before the female came in heat. Heartworm prevention and flea/tick prevention for the year, good quality dog food, the puppies need to go see the vet, get their vaccines, etc. All that adds up plus they should not be breed after the age of 6. That means two litter in their life time. You see how the money doesn't add up at all.
My brother use to breed shepherds and Malinois most of his dogs went to police departments. I know how expensive it was for him to do the up keep and the right test he barely broke even and his dogs didn't sell for cheap. He had a waiting list for his dogs and did extensive research and training with the owners of the dogs that didn't have the right disposition for police training. As you stated that is not the case in the situation you described. Most reputable breeders don't breed more than one breed. Puppy mills, not reputable breeders breed as a "job", for money not to better the breed, or shows and usually do it for more than one breed because again they do it for money as a business. No reputable breeder sits outside of petco to sell their puppies to total strangers. There are so many dogs put down a year I am very against breeding dogs to make money it is very irresponsible.

Who are you to state - "if they do it for the money ?this? dogs have not been genetically tested." There is not money to be made after extensive vet bills. As I stated above.

 

[bedogged]

If I were to get a puppy from a shelter/rescue, what are the disadvantages? I mean - if the puppy were a puppy mill survivor, are there any specific issues that you think I should be made aware of? I know that I wouldn't know the puppy's health background.

One of the main concerns is at what age they were taken (weaned) from their dam. If they are separated too early from their dam and littermates, the puppy can exhibit problems with bite inhibition. Sometimes this results in what appears to be a nice puppy starting to bite at 12 months or more. Sometimes you will see puppies that seem to want to suck on your fingers or continually want your hand or fingers in their mouth. That can be corrected, but it takes patience.

 

[Sandy321]

I was watching a 20/20 newsmagazine show where they investigated an internet clearing house - he made his pages look like they were home bred dogs - not a puppy mill - he had several hundred sites! He was a puppy mill that would ship dogs to people that bought over the internet!

Its very hard to understand this world we live in.

I do know that we researched breeds, and went to petfinder.org - there were several pure bred rescue breeds - we fell in love with and adopted a "mut" - through a rescue group - he had been fostered for a few weeks before he came up for adoption as a precaution to see what problems he may have... he is such a great dog!

we also ended up with DS dog - rescued from the same group (wright-way) he is a black lab/german shephard+ mix, mine is the "corgi/basenji mix

 

[Jey12]

They didn't force anybody to buy a puppy ~ so everybody has a busy C-mas schedule?? A lady from OR bought 2, a couple from Jackson WY bought one - they live in N UT ~ they had high quality puppies available that people were willing to travel for. I would never want a puppy in the winter time - training them to do their business when it's cold out, that's mean... but I'm aware not everyone feels the same as me.



Some people do *pay big bucks* are they held down and forced to?? No, they choose to. 3 is many?? They're mixing because it's what people want - a Yorkie's too teeny for small kids, a schnorkie is similar just a bit bigger/sturdier. But lucky for you - you don't have to buy one, it's a choice.

Our dog ~ a male cocker spaniel who was a pound puppy

Just because you can do something and people will pay for it doesn't mean you should.

People don't do their research most of the time. They hear a fancy name like schnoodle and have heard it in the media, from uneducated friend, etc...There is no such thing as an actual schnoodle, there's a schnazuer poodle mix, or a mutt. Breeders market these as designer dogs. How are they designer? You put two unaltered dogs together and they did what nature told them to. The only design IMO is the humans because they allowed it to happen. Do you know how many mutts die every year in a shelter? Every time someone intentionally breeds a litter of dogs, especially mixed breed, they are saying for every puppy born it's ok to kill 2 other dogs that resemble their puppies. Sure you can do it, sure people will pay for it. Why not take some more responsibility and go down to your local shelter every time a dog is sold and personally pick out the two dogs to be euthanized. You hold those dogs and you look them in the eyes as life leaves them and explain to them how this all works. Might even mention how you enjoyed your expensive Christmas presents bought from the sale of french bulldogs. BTW the frenchie I have is the result of someone doing the exact same thing. When her vet bills started to get too expensive they bred her one more time, made around $1000 off of each of the 5 puppies and then dumped her off at the shelter.

If you are doing genetic testing, having the dam examined by a vet prior to breeding, after being bred and right before whelping, also having x-rays done in the last few weeks of pregnancy to check the puppies (find out how many puppies and if they can safely pass through the birth canal), then you also pay to have mom and all of the puppies vet checked after birth and then the puppies dewormed and vaccinated you should not be turning a profit.

You say the German Shepherds have their hips checked. This isn't the only genetic issue shepherds should be checked for. Are they also checking elbows, eyes and thyroid along with the hips? How many generations can you show good or excellent OFA scores for the hips and elbows? What are the temperament scores? Shepherd puppies should not be sold until they are 10 weeks of age and should be temperament tested prior to being placed in a home.

Out of all of the puppies they have sold how many do they know where they are? Do they make sure these dogs aren't being irresponsibly used for breeding? Do they care?

I have adopted out over 200 rescue dogs in the past 7 years. I can tell you right now where at least 150 of these dogs are or where they ended up. I can also tell you that all 200 pets did not have a single litter after they left me, and that at least 150 of them never ended up back in the shelter/rescue system.

 

[marie1203]

Just because you can do something and people will pay for it doesn't mean you should.

People don't do their research most of the time. They hear a fancy name like schnoodle and have heard it in the media, from uneducated friend, etc...There is no such thing as an actual schnoodle, there's a schnazuer poodle mix, or a mutt. Breeders market these as designer dogs. How are they designer? You put two unaltered dogs together and they did what nature told them to. The only design IMO is the humans because they allowed it to happen. Do you know how many mutts die every year in a shelter? Every time someone intentionally breeds a litter of dogs, especially mixed breed, they are saying for every puppy born it's ok to kill 2 other dogs that resemble their puppies. Sure you can do it, sure people will pay for it. Why not take some more responsibility and go down to your local shelter every time a dog is sold and personally pick out the two dogs to be euthanized. You hold those dogs and you look them in the eyes as life leaves them and explain to them how this all works. Might even mention how you enjoyed your expensive Christmas presents bought from the sale of french bulldogs. BTW the frenchie I have is the result of someone doing the exact same thing. When her vet bills started to get too expensive they bred her one more time, made around $1000 off of each of the 5 puppies and then dumped her off at the shelter.

If you are doing genetic testing, having the dam examined by a vet prior to breeding, after being bred and right before whelping, also having x-rays done in the last few weeks of pregnancy to check the puppies (find out how many puppies and if they can safely pass through the birth canal), then you also pay to have mom and all of the puppies vet checked after birth and then the puppies dewormed and vaccinated you should not be turning a profit.

You say the German Shepherds have their hips checked. This isn't the only genetic issue shepherds should be checked for. Are they also checking elbows, eyes and thyroid along with the hips? How many generations can you show good or excellent OFA scores for the hips and elbows? What are the temperament scores? Shepherd puppies should not be sold until they are 10 weeks of age and should be temperament tested prior to being placed in a home.

Out of all of the puppies they have sold how many do they know where they are? Do they make sure these dogs aren't being irresponsibly used for breeding? Do they care?

I have adopted out over 200 rescue dogs in the past 7 years. I can tell you right now where at least 150 of these dogs are or where they ended up. I can also tell you that all 200 pets did not have a single litter after they left me, and that at least 150 of them never ended up back in the shelter/rescue system.

My brother shepherds if they didn't past for the police training they did not go into homes as pets until they were 6 months and fix.

 

[CathrynRose]

*Lots and lots of wonderful information snipped for space*
To be honest if you are just looking for a family member to love for many years I cannot think of a single reason why you should buy from any breeder. On the other hand I can think of 6-8 million reasons why you should adopt.

Thank you!!!!

She took all the words, out of my mouth. There are dogs upon dogs upon dogs in shelters. Don't overlook them. Most of them end up there because of crappy owners, not because they're crappy dogs. Makes me so, so sad.


Many posters have mentioned getting a puppy, so you don't get the baggage of an older dog, or any personality issues. Dogs are not people. They don't know how to put on a facade, when you meet them - what you see, is what you get. The mellow dog, will be mellow at your home. The hyper dog, will be hyper at your own. The lovey dovey dog, will be lovey-dovey at your home. They're not a human, on an interview. They will be exactly what they are, when you meet them. And frankly, it's a helluva lot easier to tell their personality, when they're a bit older. A puppy could turn into anything.

 

[jodifla]

Thank you!!!!

She took all the words, out of my mouth. There are dogs upon dogs upon dogs in shelters. Don't overlook them. Most of them end up there because of crappy owners, not because they're crappy dogs. Makes me so, so sad.


Many posters have mentioned getting a puppy, so you don't get the baggage of an older dog, or any personality issues. Dogs are not people. They don't know how to put on a facade, when you meet them - what you see, is what you get. The mellow dog, will be mellow at your home. The hyper dog, will be hyper at your own. The lovey dovey dog, will be lovey-dovey at your home. They're not a human, on an interview. They will be exactly what they are, when you meet them. And frankly, it's a helluva lot easier to tell their personality, when they're a bit older. A puppy could turn into anything.

This wasn't my experience with a shelter dog. She became nippy with children after we got her, she had a lot of problems with males, she had a ton of health problems, the rescue told us she was much younger than she was, etc.


She presented one way at the rescue, and her problems came out later once we had her home.

 

[jodifla]

ANother problem is that around me many, many of the rescue dogs are pit bull mixes. I don't want the liability of a pit bull, either insurance problems or running into town ordinances against pit bulls -- or subjecting my child to a possibly very dangerous and strong animal.

 

[marie1203]

ANother problem is that around me many, many of the rescue dogs are pit bull mixes. I don't want the liability of a pit bull, either insurance problems or running into town ordinances against pit bulls -- or subjecting my child to a possibly very dangerous and strong animal.

There are many many that they are not even if you have to drive a little. Chances are that there is not a reputable breeder close to you either.There really is a dog for everybody if you look for it.

 

[Jey12]

ANother problem is that around me many, many of the rescue dogs are pit bull mixes. I don't want the liability of a pit bull, either insurance problems or running into town ordinances against pit bulls -- or subjecting my child to a possibly very dangerous and strong animal.

I'm sorry I tried to resist, but I am weak.

I don't want to turn this into a pit bull debate, I don't have the energy for it honestly. I just have to say pit bulls are not out to kill your children. I'd like to add a lot more to this post but I'll refrain. Usually it's not worth my time anyway.

 

[jodifla]

Update: 10-day-old baby mauled by pit bull
http://www.minbcnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=583560

Boy, 8, Nearly Killed by Pit Bull in Warren; Also Mauled at Age 3
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2010/08/boy-8-nearly-killed-by-pit-bull-in.html

and the list goes on and on in our area....

I'm sure there are great pit bulls out there. But I'm not going to walk into a shelter, and spin the Russian Roulette wheel.

 

[marie1203]

Update: 10-day-old baby mauled by pit bull
http://www.minbcnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=583560

Boy, 8, Nearly Killed by Pit Bull in Warren; Also Mauled at Age 3
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2010/08/boy-8-nearly-killed-by-pit-bull-in.html

and the list goes on and on in our area....

I'm sure there are great pit bulls out there. But I'm not going to walk into a shelter, and spin the Russian Roulette wheel.

This only adds to the ignorance of the breed that we have manipulated. If pit bulls are not for you that is fine but a lot is media manipulated as they choose what to put in. The are millions of dogs put down a year and not all are pit bulls so if you really want to adopt there is plenty of not pit bull dogs that need help.

 

[Jey12]

Update: 10-day-old baby mauled by pit bull
http://www.minbcnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=583560

Boy, 8, Nearly Killed by Pit Bull in Warren; Also Mauled at Age 3
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2010/08/boy-8-nearly-killed-by-pit-bull-in.html

and the list goes on and on in our area....

I'm sure there are great pit bulls out there. But I'm not going to walk into a shelter, and spin the Russian Roulette wheel.

Ugh. Ok fine here you go....

Baby killed by pomeranian...
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/09/local/me-34015

Here you'll find in the official temperament test results on just page one where the american pit bull terrier has a higher score than the average family beagle.

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/


I could go on all day but obviously you're part of the sheeple population that's been hand fed by the media.

 

[Jey12]

This only adds to the ignorance of the breed that we have manipulated. If pit bulls are not for you that is fine but a lot is media manipulated as they choose what to put in. The are millions of dogs put down a year and not all are pit bulls so if you really want to adopt there is plenty of not pit bull dogs that need help.

You are totally correct. Although I don't encourage people who so openly believe things like this to adopt animals through my rescue. If they aren't open to educating themselves properly on pets, any breed, then they probably aren't open to being educated on training and care for the non pit bull they do adopt. This makes them a dangerous owner in my mind. Some of the worst dog bites I've received have come from the family lab, chihuahua, cocker spaniel and anything under 20 lbs named Precious.

 

[jodifla]

Ugh. Ok fine here you go....

Baby killed by pomeranian...
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/09/local/me-34015

Here you'll find in the official temperament test results on just page one where the american pit bull terrier has a higher score than the average family beagle.

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/


I could go on all day but obviously you're part of the sheeple population that's been hand fed by the media.

Nice try, but I am hardly a "sheeple." That story is from 2000, 12 years ago. We've had a slew of killings by pit bulls in the Detroit area in the past two years alone.

I work in the business. The "media' doesn't hold stories of killings of babies by cocker spaniels while blowing up the ones about pit bulls. That's completely disingenuous. All children...or people in general...getting killed by dogs is reported and newsworthy.

 

[marie1203]

You are totally correct. Although I don't encourage people who so openly believe things like this to adopt animals through my rescue. If they aren't open to educating themselves properly on pets, any breed, then they probably aren't open to being educated on training and care for the non pit bull they do adopt. This makes them a dangerous owner in my mind. Some of the worst dog bites I've received have come from the family lab, chihuahua, cocker spaniel and anything under 20 lbs named Precious.

I agree with you 100%. In my experience most problems with dogs come from the owner. Just like with kids dogs act how we teach them to act.

 

[jodifla]

You are totally correct. Although I don't encourage people who so openly believe things like this to adopt animals through my rescue. If they aren't open to educating themselves properly on pets, any breed, then they probably aren't open to being educated on training and care for the non pit bull they do adopt. This makes them a dangerous owner in my mind. Some of the worst dog bites I've received have come from the family lab, chihuahua, cocker spaniel and anything under 20 lbs named Precious.

Frankly, I find this attitude a lot in rescues, and it's a real turnoff. If you don't believe exactly what they believe, you are a horrible pet owner.

I've have a dog most of my life. My grandfather bred working farm dogs (back in the 1920s, when dogs were working members of the farm). I DID the rescue thing. It wasn't a great experience, because I made the mistake of TRUSTING the rescue person, who didn't know what she was talking about, although she was dedicated.

Dogs DO come with baggage. Saw it with my own two eyes. People adopting need to know this.

 

[marie1203]

Frankly, I find this attitude a lot in rescues, and it's a real turnoff. If you don't believe exactly what they believe, you are a horrible pet owner.

I've have a dog most of my life. My grandfather bred working farm dogs (back in the 1920s, when dogs were working members of the farm). I DID the rescue thing. It wasn't a great experience, because I made the mistake of TRUSTING the rescue person, who didn't know what she was talking about, although she was dedicated.

Dogs DO come with baggage. Saw it with my own two eyes. People adopting need to know this.

There are more positive stories than negative when it comes to rescues. Dogs after all are animals and they don't act rationally as much as we hope they did. I am sorry that you had a bad experience but if you are getting a dog no matter from where there are risks. If you see statistics and the way we like to record then it is more dangerous for you to get a purebred that a mix. Also most small breed bites go un reported so it is not really accurate. Plus we don't have an accurate count as to how many dogs of each breed are out there.
Yes I like to screen fully the people I place my dogs with because we put a lot of time, effort, money and emotions. We give it our all and it is only fair that we want to ensure that our effort don't go to waste and that the dog has a happy life. And to be honest I think we have the right to just like a reputable breeder would.
When pit bulls do something good it doesn't make it in the news. How many stories actually include how the dog was train, was the owner aggressive? Not many give too much details. I know a friend that a pit bull he was a great dog she was gardening in her front yard when her
neighbor's chiguaguas run out the door and attacked her. Her pit bulls in defense started attacking the chiguaguas she has serious injuries all down her leg. And what made the news? The pit bull attack on the chiguaguas they mention nothing how she almost lost her leg.

 

[ceecee]

Thank you!!!!

She took all the words, out of my mouth. There are dogs upon dogs upon dogs in shelters. Don't overlook them. Most of them end up there because of crappy owners, not because they're crappy dogs. Makes me so, so sad.


Many posters have mentioned getting a puppy, so you don't get the baggage of an older dog, or any personality issues. Dogs are not people. They don't know how to put on a facade, when you meet them - what you see, is what you get. The mellow dog, will be mellow at your home. The hyper dog, will be hyper at your own. The lovey dovey dog, will be lovey-dovey at your home. They're not a human, on an interview. They will be exactly what they are, when you meet them. And frankly, it's a helluva lot easier to tell their personality, when they're a bit older. A puppy could turn into anything.

This is so true. Rescue dogs are pets in most cases that the owners didn't take the time to research or care about. They don't have time, money, the dog grew too big, etc. They couldn't put on a good impression if they wanted to....what you see is what you get. A good rescue will notice if they are shy, etc. and let you know. Our lab was terrified of men and shy of strangers when we got her. She is now very out going and the best girl ever. Her "baggage" was probably someone beat her and she got scared. Now she trusts again and is a great family member. A lot of times puppies turn into their owners (never trained, etc).

 

[Jey12]

Frankly, I find this attitude a lot in rescues, and it's a real turnoff. If you don't believe exactly what they believe, you are a horrible pet owner.

I've have a dog most of my life. My grandfather bred working farm dogs (back in the 1920s, when dogs were working members of the farm). I DID the rescue thing. It wasn't a great experience, because I made the mistake of TRUSTING the rescue person, who didn't know what she was talking about, although she was dedicated.

Dogs DO come with baggage. Saw it with my own two eyes. People adopting need to know this.

Of course dogs have issues. So do the owners. The difference is the human is the one that has control to change things. Most problems stem from the human on the other end of the leash. Not every rescue dog has such severe problems they can't be worked with. Many of them have very little issues as well. I have to ask what did you do in response to the dog you had that started biting everyone? If you really believe that behaviors can't be changed no matter what or how minor they are, then I stick with I would not adopt a dog to you. If you really believe that a dog's aggressive behavior is due simply to what breed mix it has, then I would not adopt a dog to you. As with any dog, rescue dogs take work, puppies take work, everything takes work. You can't just take a dog home, plop it into your schedule and expect it to fit right in. You have to plan ahead and prepare what to do at the first sign of a problem and let's face us, not many people do this.

As for thinking if you don't agree with me I won't adopt a dog to you, that's incorrect. I find the fact you believe everything you see in the media as truth the turn off. You toss aside a story from 12 years ago, yet believe other ones. Are you aware that some of the pit bull attacks that are reported are not actually pit bulls? Any response to the facts of the temperament testing? Dogs want to please their owner. If their owner asks the dog to attack another dog to gain attention then they will do it.

I personally have been involved in many cases of where non pit bull dogs have attacked and very few of them made the news. The few that did were only within their local area. If the word pit bull can be worked into the report it's all of a sudden national news. My brother 2 years ago was bitten by a golden retriever while camping. Did you hear about that on the news? Nope. He had to have several stitches and plastic surgery. I can't imagine a person doing dog rescue as you have stated that still believes into the myth of the evil personality of pit bulls. To me that might be the saddest statement I've heard all day.

Not sure why you even had to bring it up? The OP never stated hey where can I find a good pit bull to bring home? They're looking for a pug. Focus.

Why would you trust the rescue person over a trained vet? There's the problem. So many people want easy, cheap, quick answers. Do you know how many times in veterinary practice it's heard well the breeder said....well the rescue person said....how about what the vet said? You know that person that went to school for years to be educated. What does your vet say about pit bulls? I only give suggestions to pet owners and most of those suggestions end with the statement of "please check with your vet first."

Aww hell i said I wouldn't do this. Nevermind. As usual it's simply a waste of my time. When the world has finally been deemed safe from the evil pit bulls I sure hope the next breed of "choice" isn't the one sitting at your feet. You might have a different response then