Probate and Estate's responsibility for the making the house sellable?

[Pink Partridge]

I think it’s just a cultural thing in the US Where living at home as an adult is being seen a “free loading” where in many cultures It’s just a multi generational home. I’m pretty sure if these parents were ok with their adult kids living with them, or they would’ve taken measures to get them out. In the US there’s some type of shame with adult kids still living with their parents.

I agree with you here.

I truly don't understand how young adults are able to buy homes without living at home and saving for a while. My children know the door is always open. Always. Come and live for free and save. I now have two proud home owners because they stayed home and saved every penny. I hope my other children do the same.

But shouldn't there be a goal? An end game?

I do think there is shame associated with, let's say, a 45 year old that is still living with their parents for free. What are they doing with their income for the past 25 years? Perhaps it's just in the USA, but at what point do you take pride in owning your own home? Paying your own way? Seeing that your siblings and friends have moved on and wanting to do the same.

Again, maybe an American thing. Perhaps we will see more multigenerational homes here with the price of real estate.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I just don’t understand the mindset, maybe it’s jealousy? I mean, my husband is one of four siblings. His three sisters all married, relatively young, and moved out and formed their own families, buildt their own homes. My husband being the Forever bachelor at the time simply never moved out. Technically, he was living rent free for a good 20 years, but he took care of his parents, took care of the house did yardwork. There really wasn’t a mortgage to pay but I’m pretty sure, he paid for things here and there. At one point he decided to add on to his parents part of the house and did his own build. Turned it into a duplex. Technically, I guess one could see his parents gifted him land. At no point did any of his sisters ever bring up a discussion that their brother was “living for free“ at home or kept a scorecard on any type of financial advantage he had over
Them. That’s just the way his life worked out until he met me. By then his parents had been deceased And it was decided in the family that he just simply keeps the house since that was actually his home and he had built on his house. His sisters are happy for him. There was never any animosity on all those years. He lived there rent free. You have winners and losers but I wouldn’t call it that in the situation , that’s just the way life is and that’s not how they see it either

That's wonderful for his family--truly, I mean that. Not everyone is so fortunate to have a family that works like that.

When my mom was diagnosed with dementia, it was obvious to my sister and I that she needed assisted living/memory care. She had some money, maybe ~$250, 000, to pay for it. Both of our brothers wanted Mom to live with Sis--you know, to preserve their inheritance. Mind you, Mom was bipolar, legally blind, and, of course, had dementia. Meanwhile, Sis worked full-time, as did her husband, and lived in a 2-story house (only bathroom on the second floor) that was a couple hundred yards from a major road (traffic 2 lanes in each direction). It could have been comical, if the possibility of tragedy wasn't so high. Naturally, neither brother was willing to pitch in for care (or costs). Sis won out, she had POA.

Meanwhile, Brother #1 (drug addict, died recently) cleaned out one of her accounts. Brother #2 (lives out of the country) famously asked about his inheritance, 47 minutes after the funeral ended. What a wonderful legacy!

 

[focusondisney]

Such a timely thread for me. My dad died in 2015, my mom just over a year ago. I have 5 siblings, 5 of us are in our 60s. We all live in the area. My parents helped my youngest sister when her husband left her with 3 kids under 5 back in the late 80s. They provided child care while she put herself thru college & in her early working days. The ex never paid child support or alimony, so they helped out with money at times too. When my dad’s health deteriorated badly in about 2013, that sister offered to move in with them, she’s a RN as am I. She works full time but was able to help with tracking meds or if any issues arose overnight. I worked part time but did all MD appointments. After dad passed, mom did good for a few years but her health declined from late 2020 on. All 6 of us agreed we would keep her home if there was any possible way. The last 18 months she needed someone with her around the clock. We made schedules & 1 sister took over bill paying. Mom passed rather suddenly in her home, with all 6 of us with her. We did fine during her last years & immediately after. Everyone was supportive of each other & understanding if someone needed a break or had vacation plans etc.

Mom was a hoarder & my parents never kept their house up or in repair. They lived there for almost 60 years & never made any improvements or updates. Neither my mom or the sister who lives there were ever housekeepers. The house is full of junk & dirty. There was a modest amount in a bank account & very small life insurance policy. We all inherited equally, 2 siblings are co-executors. The money from the bank account was dispersed after final bills were paid. We kept the life insurance money in estate account. We all agreed the sister who lives in the house could stay until she retires later this year. She pays all utilities & the taxes are paid by the estate. We don’t want rent because she did so much for our parents for years. We started working on the rooms full of stuff last summer & got a good start on clearing stuff out. But we had a bad winter weather wise so work on the house was put off. We started again the last few months. There is also stuff mom inherited from her parents & her aunt. The oldest sister insists on looking at every little item & every piece of paper.

My DIL has a family member who does antiques & will buy stuff from estates. We agreed to have him come & look thru the house & had been putting stuff aside for him to look thru. We had an appointment for him to come last week. However, that morning, the oldest & youngest sisters decided we’re “not ready”. This caused the first anger & bad feelings among us. It’s been 13 months. Another sister & I think the oldest sister is not ready to let go. But at least 3 of us are more than ready for this to be done. It’s time. We’re still ok if the sister lives there until she retires & finds a place to move to. But we need to be done with cleaning out the junk. At this point, 2 of us feel we’re only going back when the dealer comes & then to take the rest in the trash. We will sell the house as is & know we won’t make much money. I’m just hoping we can actually sell it & nothing major goes wrong with it before we do. It’s so stressful still having to worry about all that “stuff” & what could go wrong in that house. I’m so upset that mom’s hoarding is still impacting our lives. After everything we’ve been thru, this is the worst part.

 

[barkley]

Cars are not in the trust either, per our trust attorney's recommendation.

in california you can have a t.o.d. (transfer on death) on a clear car title. it's something i would HIGHLY advise any vehical owner there to have. one of the most time consuming issues we dealt with was a car b/c california won't let you transfer one outside probate (and is'nt that the purpose of doing a trust in california-to avoid probate???) without waiting 40 days during which the car has to remain insured........which no insurance company will permit you to do b/c they won't insure deceased individuals so you basicly have to lie to the insurance company (so if the person had life insurance with the same carrier hold off filing until the title is tranferred). a simple t.o.d. on the title and it's a much easier matter.

 

[tvguy]

I think it’s just a cultural thing in the US Where living at home as an adult is being seen a “free loading” where in many cultures It’s just a multi generational home. I’m pretty sure if these parents were ok with their adult kids living with them, or they would’ve taken measures to get them out. In the US there’s some type of shame with adult kids still living with their parents. Either you are a loser or freeloader, maybe it just works?? if an adult is still able to be an adult while living still in their parents home, and nobody has an issue, why should they go out and have extra expenses if it’s not necessary? Most other cultures it’s normal for adult kids still live at home. Even at times with their on family and they’re not paying mortgages or anything. Parents are usually grateful to allow their kids to build their own mistakes, but not throwing money out the window every month paying rent elsewhere.

Well, at least for me, I have no issue with an adult living at home for a time. My daughter did it so she could save for a down payment for a house because she thought renting was an absolute waste of money. In her case it was two years. I think what people are questioning is 35 years.

 

[Pink Partridge]

Well, at least for me, I have no issue with an adult living at home for a time. My daughter did it so she could save for a down payment for a house because she thought renting was an absolute waste of money. In her case it was two years. I think what people are questioning is 35 years.

This is what I am wondering. People who live with their parents for free. For life. Is it just an American thing to think of these people as "losers"? That's not my word. That is from a previous poster. I prefer the word "mooch".

 

[tvguy]

This is what I am wondering. People who live with their parents for free. For life. Is it just an American thing to think of these people as "losers"? That's not my word. That is from a previous poster. I prefer the word "mooch".

I think it is more common for parents moving in with their kids. Sort of like both sets of Grandparents living with Charlie and his parents in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.
I am of Czech ansestry and so the multigeneration living is much more common there, but generally it as the beginning of a child's adult life, and near the end of the parents life, with a decades long break in between.

 

[mousefan73]

This is what I am wondering. People who live with their parents for free. For life. Is it just an American thing to think of these people as "losers"? That's not my word. That is from a previous poster. I prefer the word "mooch".

don't agree.. A mooch is a friend who one lunches with and ALWAYS forgets their wallet. I am pretty sure in most cases adult kids living with their parents are in many ways chiming in with costs, utiities, helping out. Here in our town I know many peope who are in their 60s and live in the same home they were babies in, parents are now deceased but they inherited. They pitched in, in many ways but in no certain ways were paying a mortage or such. in many cases there were none. If it works, it works. No way I could have stayed with my parents, I wanted out for many reasons.. but these people have their own space with in the home and live in harmony.

 

[Pink Partridge]

don't agree.. A mooch is a friend who one lunches with and ALWAYS forgets their wallet. I am pretty sure in most cases adult kids living with their parents are in many ways chiming in with costs, utiities, helping out. Here in our town I know many peope who are in their 60s and live in the same home they were babies in, parents are now deceased but they inherited. They pitched in, in many ways but in no certain ways were paying a mortage or such. in many cases there were none. If it works, it works. No way I could have stayed with my parents, I wanted out for many reasons.. but these people have their own space with in the home and live in harmony.

But I think this is where the issues with siblings come in. I mean, I hope the adult child living in their parents' home without a mortgage is "pitching in". That's not something to be commended for. They are living for free. They better be helping out.

And then the child that lived for free for their entire life automatically inherits the home, while the other siblings get nothing...well that can cause some issues.

That isn't the case with the OP's friend, though. It does seem like everyone is getting a share of the estate.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I mean, I hope the adult child living in their parents' home without a mortgage is "pitching in". That's not something to be commended for. They are living for free. They better be helping out.

And then the child that lived for free for their entire life automatically inherits the home, while the other siblings get nothing...well that can cause some issues.

Isn't that two different topics though?

One where you have parents who are not experiencing any medical issues or care needed due to age and one where none of this is present? Admittedly for Kim it seems she moved in roughly when she was 30 and stayed there but was also there during the end of life for her parent. Not sure about the brother though and his story.

In many cases what gets talked about and what posters have been referring to in this thread for the most part is the care the person living in the home does for the parent. While they may not always be paying rent they are the primary person involved, in the thick of it and experience all of their days with the parent which to talk about mental load is an understatement add in someone in Kim's case that is a hoarder and it's a layer of complexity into the psychology of someone. Meanwhile those not living in the house are not necessarily involved like this. You say they lived for free their entire life but what about the sibling that is free to live their life without that entanglement?

You say "they better be helping out" but what about the sibling who isn't living at the home and doesn't help out either or is largely distant then swoops in and seemingly uses years of resentment to enact demands on those that live there or act unfairly in the estate aspect? That seems to be the majority of situations people at least talk about and why the "mooching, loser, whatever" identifiers I don't feel are accurate when discussing estates in these cases.

My husband is the executor of his mom and step-father's estate but he wouldn't be the primary caretaker, knowing the personalities the youngest sibling is the most likely one to move in followed by the second youngest. My husband wouldn't care if they lived rent free (especially as that's already occurred over the years a different points) but it would alleviate so much for him to not be that primary person. The biggest reason he is the executor is financial responsibility they know he would have.

My mom and her sister are primary caretakers of their other autistic sister. Meanwhile my uncle who is considered the executor of her financials is also a caretaker but to a much less degree. I have been privy to many conversations about the stresses of doctor's appointments, shopping, food, medication pick ups and sorting and many more things. The act of physically taking care of someone can drastically affect their lives and while I don't think it's as cut and dried I do think that part does not always enter the mind of the executor of the estate.

 

[china mom]

Over the past ten years, I believe that I have been involved in every role in the original scenario. I have been a caregiver for a parent who I had moved in with me. I have dealt with a sibling who would not leave my mother's house had to go to court and have him evicted). I have dealt with cleaning out a hoarder home and fixing it up for sale. I have been the Personal Representative of four estates (two with wills and two intestate) and am currently dealing with a second hoarder house.

And here is my take. What legally has to happen and what is "right" or "Fair are not always the same. As far as legal goes, I am pretty sure that unless a will exists that stipulates otherwise, the executor cannot make one of the heirs personally responsible (either physically or financially) for cleaning out the house and preparing it for sale.

On the other hand, what is fair and right would have been for the two siblings living in the house to have spent the last year preparing for the eventual move and sale of the house. If they had been tackling their own possessions and the mother'[s possessions over time, this would not be such an issue.

I agree with what others have posted previously. Anything that happened in the years prior to the mother death, any arrangements, caregiving, rents paid etc, are irrelevant.

But OP, please take everything that Kim says with a little skepticism. It is natural that she is going to paint herself in the best possible light and even as the victim. She may be but she also might be playing that card without cause. My brother told everyone who would listen that he was the selfless caregiver of my mother. That was not actually the case at all.

 

[tvguy]

Over the past ten years, I believe that I have been involved in every role in the original scenario. I have been a caregiver for a parent who I had moved in with me. I have dealt with a sibling who would not leave my mother's house had to go to court and have him evicted). I have dealt with cleaning out a hoarder home and fixing it up for sale. I have been the Personal Representative of four estates (two with wills and two intestate) and am currently dealing with a second hoarder house.

And here is my take. What legally has to happen and what is "right" or "Fair are not always the same. As far as legal goes, I am pretty sure that unless a will exists that stipulates otherwise, the executor cannot make one of the heirs personally responsible (either physically or financially) for cleaning out the house and preparing it for sale.

On the other hand, what is fair and right would have been for the two siblings living in the house to have spent the last year preparing for the eventual move and sale of the house. If they had been tackling their own possessions and the mother'[s possessions over time, this would not be such an issue.

I agree with what others have posted previously. Anything that happened in the years prior to the mother death, any arrangements, caregiving, rents paid etc, are irrelevant.

But OP, please take everything that Kim says with a little skepticism. It is natural that she is going to paint herself in the best possible light and even as the victim. She may be but she also might be playing that card without cause. My brother told everyone who would listen that he was the selfless caregiver of my mother. That was not actually the case at all.

There is a will, and a trust involved. We don't know the contents. I am reading into the fact that there is a trust for the house with only one sister listed as trustee that mom did not want her other daughter and son to have an equal say in how the house was dealt with.
Your statement about what legally has to happen and what is right or fair are not always the same .....is such a huge thing across our society. I was a Jury in a lengthy, 6 1/2 week long, wrongful death civil trial. The case had a lot of unethical, unfair, but perfectly legal things happen. The Judge's instructions on the law in the case very specifically said we could not award damages for something, no matter how unfair or unethical they were, if they were legal. Somehow we ended up with two Attorneys on our Jury panel, who worked in Real Estate.....and they just could not accept that instruction. So if people who are training to know that something can be wrong but legal, have trouble accepting it, I can see why lay people do.

 

[barkley]

My brother told everyone who would listen that he was the selfless caregiver of my mother. That was not actually the case at all.

been there! i ended up at one point in a very heated phone conversation with an extreemly self impressed assistant d.a. for the city my mom/brother lived in. brother thought he could play some legal card to gain more estate access (mom was obviously within less than a year of passing) and did his best selfless caregiver speil to legal aid (of course he qualified for it b/c mom had been his sole financial support for decades) who fell for it and involved the district attorney's office. the phone call i received had a conversation that started out confrontational towards myself and another sib who brother had badmouthed but i shut it down when i asked if either the d.a.'s office or legal aid had taken the time to research if anything was active with adult protective services before making what i perceived as defamatory accusations towards me. the assistant d.a. said they assumed legal aid had and i told them they obviously had'nt or they would be aware that adult protective services had for months been monitoring and investigating my brother for elder abuse and OH BY THE WAY-they might have wanted to take a look at HIS police record b/c he was a frequent flyer over decades. she said she need to research further......i got a call a bit later that was short and to the point of 'the district attorney's office is no longer involving itself in mr. x's claims, we are sorry to have taken up your time'.

 

[focusondisney]

On the other hand, what is fair and right would have been for the two siblings living in the house to have spent the last year preparing for the eventual move and sale of the house. If they had been tackling their own possessions and the mother'[s possessions over time, this would not be such an issue.

I just want to point out, when there are multiple siblings, it’s not always easy or appropriate for 1 or 2 to take on clearing out the parent’s possessions. As I said, we’re working on my mothers house. Some siblings want to look at everything. And we’re planning to get an estate / antiques dealer thru & buy anything worthwhile from us. Can you imagine the fuss the OP’s friend would have to deal with if she tossed something the sister wanted or deemed valuable.

 

[lanejudy]

So, I sent this to Kim:

... I know that you are focusing on your stuff. I think that is the way to go. Focus on your stuff and your mother's stuff you want to keep. Leave the rest for your sister to deal with. She can hire a company to clean the place and have an estate sale or a company like I hired to simply clear out the house since my mom's stuff was not valuable. ...​

Depending on how well the siblings get along and can agree "who gets what" even for items of sentimental value -- the bolded could get your friend in trouble. Unless she has proof (usually in writing) indicating the mother "gave" an item to her, it belongs to the estate and your friend has no right to just take it with her own stuff even though she lived in the same home. Now possibly nobody would know the difference but that doesn't make it legal and I still recommend she do it openly and honestly. She should focus on just her own stuff to get out of the house. Then offer to help the siblings create a list of any/all items anybody wants to keep from the house. With luck the siblings can agree to divvy such things up, especially if the others apparently have no interest.

The house is in a trust...what about the contents? It depends on the wording but household contents do not necessarily automatically go with the house and quite possibly the household contents need to go through probate if there is anything of monetary value.

 

[tvguy]

The house is in a trust...what about the contents? It depends on the wording but household contents do not necessarily automatically go with the house and quite possibly the household contents need to go through probate if there is anything of monetary value.

The house is in a trust and there is a will. So while there may be a legal battle on the horizon over how the executor sister is handling the estate, in most states Probate would not be necessary no matter the value of the items in the house.

 

[barkley]

I just want to point out, when there are multiple siblings, it’s not always easy or appropriate for 1 or 2 to take on clearing out the parent’s possessions. As I said, we’re working on my mothers house. Some siblings want to look at everything. And we’re planning to get an estate / antiques dealer thru & buy anything worthwhile from us. Can you imagine the fuss the OP’s friend would have to deal with if she tossed something the sister wanted or deemed valuable.

beyond the legality issues surrounding the possessions you just never know what one sibling deems of tremendous importance vs. another (sentimentality and all) but it's so hard when (as you know) people are hesitant or resistant. in clearing out parental hoarding situations it can become illuminating regarding one's siblings and who may share the same tendancies. i had one sib i would consider a hoarder but from all appearances including his home he lived a very uncluttered and immaculate life-he kept it all hidden away in a 'storage locker' (read-half a warehouse he paid for decades on and kept hidden away). he was the kind of person who wanted to go through every item, piece by piece

 

[robinb]

The house is in a trust and there is a will. So while there may be a legal battle on the horizon over how the executor sister is handling the estate, in most states Probate would not be necessary no matter the value of the items in the house.

FWIW, there is no valid will. The sister was acting like she was an executor so I thought she was. There is a will naming the sister and the brother as executors, but it was never signed so it's not valid. The house is in a trust so the estate actually won't have to go through probate because everything else was pay on death and not worth $100k.

I don't think my friend Kim quite understands the whole trust thing. First she said all 5 siblings were trustees and then I asked if she meant beneficiaries and she said yes. She didn't tell me who was the trustee and I didn't press. I'm not sure if she knows, only that her sister is threatening her. Also, Kim told me that she offered to pay rent last year but the sister said "No, that'll put me in a higher tax bracket." which totally confuses me. Why would the rent be her income? I don't think she knows what she's doing either.

 

[Imzadi]

FWIW, there is no valid will. The sister was acting like she was an executor so I thought she was. There is a will naming the sister and the brother as executors, but it was never signed so it's not valid. The house is in a trust so the estate actually won't have to go through probate because everything else was pay on death and not worth $100k.

I don't think my friend Kim quite understands the who trust thing. First she said all 5 siblings were trustees and then I asked if she meant beneficiaries and she said yes. She didn't tell me who was the trustee and I didn't press. I'm not sure if she knows, only that her sister is threatening her. Also, Kim told me that she offered to pay rent last year but the sister said "No, that'll put me in a higher tax bracket." which totally confuses me. Why would the rent be her income? I don't think she knows what she's doing either.

If she's getting terms mixed up, she might not even mean the house is in a trust. She could have heard there is no will so the house is INTESTATE. She may have heard the "T" and thought that word means "In Trust."

If there is no will the estate is intestate. The sister self-appointed herself as the executor and can remain if no one challenges her. All the heirs (siblings) have to sign a form agreeing she can be executor, which a lawyer draws up.

If the siblings object to her as executor, like Kim and the brother due to her pulling this paying for cleaning the house and getting out in 30 days, an administrator can be hired to handle the duties. (They usually get a percentage of the estate as a fee, at least in NY.)

 

[china mom]

If she's getting terms mixed up, she might not even mean the house is in a trust. She could have heard there is no will so the house is INTESTATE. She may have heard the "T" and thought that word means "In Trust."

If there is no will the estate is intestate. The sister self-appointed herself as the executor and can remain if no one challenges her. All the heirs (siblings) have to sign a form agreeing she can be executor, which a lawyer draws up.

If the siblings object to her as executor, like Kim and the brother due to her pulling this paying for cleaning the house and getting out in 30 days, an administrator can be hired to handle the duties. (They usually get a percentage of the estate as a fee, at least in NY.)

I agree that there may be a misunderstanding of terms. I would be very surprised if someone had the foresight and organization to put a house in a trust but not the pre-planning to have a will. A will is a lot cheaper and easier to draw up and covers all the things that fall outside of the trust - such as bank accounts etc.