Positive WDW remarks?

[Wick]

I think you've misunderstood several things (not blaming... communication is always a two-way street), one of which is that the criticism is the queue doesn't educate enough. That's too narrow. The queue was used as an example of where they placed a few snippets of what they experienced on their visit. An educational aspect could have been included anywhere. But again, that sounds boring even to me.

If you have heard/seen any of the stuff from the imagineers who described their trip, you know that they spoke of wonders and amazing discoveries, cultures, etc. Part of what defined Disney was their ability to translate those wonderous experiences (from their own personal experiences or their imagination) into a three dimensional experience that conveyed those wonders to the guests. However they chose to do it.

With Everest, they took those experiences and made a nice looking mountain with a roller coaster, a shadow puppet show, and a great animatronic that you barely see.

Now before you start pointing to attractions like Dumbo and saying it didn't go to such lengths, remember that we are talking about a top of the line E-ticket here. This isn't a minor attraction, this is the big E-ticket we only get once every few years in one of the parks, if we are lucky.

They could have done more.

Nitpicking? Well, how many times have you heard that the Disney difference is in the details? It's in the things that nobody else is willing to do.

We can't have this both ways. If Disney really is special, then it's not nitpicking to expect a little more than a well-decorated roller coaster given their resources and what they put into their research.

Believing that doesn't mean I can't ride EE and have a good time. That's a completely separate issue from talking about what Disney really is, or was, or should be. Just like I can go to a Six Flags park and have fun while still recognizing it for what it is.


On the quotes not having anything to do with education, I'm not sure what to say. "A place where adults and children could experience together some of the wonders of life and adventure, and feel better because of it." Isn't that education? When you think of "a wonder of life and adventure", do you think only of a fun ride, or does it conjure up images or thoughts of perhaps something more grand and wonderous? Is that not how we learn?

"A museum of living facts".... that can't be anymore clear, can it? A museum showcases art and history, i.e. it educates, but this museum is not static and sterile, it's a living thing that you experience.

Again, it's all in how you look at it. Think "education" and picture classrooms and textbooks and no, you probably won't come up with exciting Disney theme park attractions.

But think of learning and experiencing as something more wonderful and amazing, and you can easily come to a very different conclusion.

I see what you're saying. But I'm concerned over what we as Disney fans should expect when we go into the parks. No matter how corny it may have been, they implemented the NahTaZu campaign for a reason.
And hopemax, I read your post and I better understand what you were going for. Some extremists on here would go to great lengths to belittle EE as a waste of money, given that it was 7 years too late and whatnot. I took your original argument as that EE didn't enrich the overall experience because it lacked insight and educational value. But I see now where you're going with it.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Peter! Just because they did not go headlong, and completely into Walt's ideas about what to do in Florida, did not mean that they were completely abandoning the principles behind the creation of Disneyland, or led Walt to Florida in the first place. What is this, we don't want to build the wall as high as he would have, so that is license to not build it at all? Here's the Magic Kingdom plaque , but it is for all of WDW, since that is what it says. (and people wonder why others don't understand what to call it).

WALT DISNEY WORLD

is a tribute to the philosophy and life of Walter Elias Disney...
and to the talents, the dedication, and the loyalty of the entire Disney organization that made Walt Disney's dream come true.

May Walt Disney World bring Joy and Inspiration and New Knowledge to all who come to this happy place...
a Magic Kingdom where the young at heart of all ages
can laugh and play and learn -- together.

Oh, don't think I'm slipping sway Hope, I didn't mean they completely abandoned their principals I just think they lost sight a bit because it wasn't being built with the same passion as DL (we know Walt didn't care about repeating anything and his initial interest in Florida wasn't to build a clone, was it?). Walt's heart had moved on to urban planning and E.P.C.O.T. was his next passion and WDW was to be the cash cow...Again, is this a wrong perception I have?

 

[Another Voice]

Mr. Pirate - no one knows what Walt's plan for the theme park would have been. He spent his last days working on EPCOT and the master plan for the property, the "resort area" would be dealt with later. It was Roy and the less creative elements of the company that created anyother version of Disneyland. Blame them for changing them, not the original intent of the project. My guess is that, like Walt coming back from the World's Fair and looking at the plans for 'Pirates' and 'Haunted Mansion' at Disneyland - he would have told everyone to dream it bigger and better and different in Florida.


As for 'Expedition: Everest':
wow. a runaway train through a mountain. how exciting. how original. how thrilling. gee, like nothing else. i can barely contain the exictment that flows in my bones and that sends chills up my spine. like seriously, i mean - wheeee, that was fun. there is nothing else in the whole wide world as magical as a rollercoaster in a concrete box. for joy i must jump. all my life i have yearned for a moment when i too could ride on a rollercoaster decorated to look like a runaway train on a mountain. my life must now be complete for how can i ever hope to experience the joy and happiness of riding a rollercoaster on a phony mountain. too bad no one else had thought of it before. i must weap for all the generations of little children that have not had the thrill and the joy of a roller coaster along side cement paint white to look like snow. i can only pinch myself and thank my lucky stars that i lived until the twenty-first century when such things like a runaway train rollercoaster on a mountian is possible. that is why the world must hate us so much. they do not have roller coasters on their phony mountains and must be very jealous of us. maybe we should send them one of ours because then they would be having so much fun thinking that the roller coaster they are on is really a runaway train in a mountian that they will forget all the hate and stuff and them maybe they will by plush donald duck toys and the world will be a better place unless they want a hotel room before five in the afternoon then they are just whinning brats that don't know how good they have it paying one hundred and twenty dollars a night for a room that's smaller than a prison cell and then they'll go back to hating us all over again and forget about all the magic that they shared riding on a roller coaster in a phony mountain and seeing a plate of phony yeti poo in the line.

 

[dwaters]

As for 'Expedition: Everest':
wow. a runaway train through a mountain. how exciting. how original. how thrilling. gee, like nothing else. i can barely contain the exictment that flows in my bones and that sends chills up my spine. like seriously, i mean - wheeee, that was fun. there is nothing else in the whole wide world as magical as a rollercoaster in a concrete box. for joy i must jump. all my life i have yearned for a moment when i too could ride on a rollercoaster decorated to look like a runaway train on a mountain. my life must now be complete for how can i ever hope to experience the joy and happiness of riding a rollercoaster on a phony mountain. too bad no one else had thought of it before. i must weap for all the generations of little children that have not had the thrill and the joy of a roller coaster along side cement paint white to look like snow. i can only pinch myself and thank my lucky stars that i lived until the twenty-first century when such things like a runaway train rollercoaster on a mountian is possible. that is why the world must hate us so much. they do not have roller coasters on their phony mountains and must be very jealous of us. maybe we should send them one of ours because then they would be having so much fun thinking that the roller coaster they are on is really a runaway train in a mountian that they will forget all the hate and stuff and them maybe they will by plush donald duck toys and the world will be a better place unless they want a hotel room before five in the afternoon then they are just whinning brats that don't know how good they have it paying one hundred and twenty dollars a night for a room that's smaller than a prison cell and then they'll go back to hating us all over again and forget about all the magic that they shared riding on a roller coaster in a phony mountain and seeing a plate of phony yeti poo in the line.

Yowsers!
After that, I'm eagerly awaiting your thoughts on "Stitch's Great Escape".

 

[Keyser]

For EE, the whole village is supposed to be reflective of the Nepalese experience, not just the queue line. Some posters here seem to think that the designers have done a poor job of conveying the Nepalese environment and stoking interest in that area. I disagree - I think they've done a very good job with it. Flawless? No. But to treat the ride as nothing more than a decorated roller coaster is just ridiculous.

I mean, I can talk about the "classic" Haunted Mansion the same way as EE was referred to:
Wow. A ride through a haunted mansion. How exciting. How original. I haven't seen anything like it since the carnival rolled through town a few months ago. I can't tell you how amazed I am to get to see painted plywood ghosts popping up from behind oh-so-realistic tombstones. And I never thought I'd get to see those incredible optical illusions outside of the funhouses and "museums." etc. etc.

Now, do I really mean that? No. But, I don't think it's less ridiculous to talk about EE as just a fancy roller coaster than it is to talk about HM as just a fancy carnival haunted house.

I don't get why rides like Expedition Everest, which does have a story (and, I think, does a decent job of telling it) is denigrated as just a roller coaster. Or Mission:Space, which has a story that it does a good (in fact, an excellent) job of converying, is regularly put down. Both of these rides seem to far better match the criteria that are commonly espoused as being key to good attraction design than something like "Soarin". And Soarin seems to get a pass (or even be praised as a "good" ride), I guess because people personally find it more enjoyable.

 

[YoHo]

I don't remember any painted plywood ghosts in the haunted mansion (NBC makeover not withstanding) and I certainly have never seen those FX at my local spookhouse.

So no, you can't really make that comparison.

Mission Space's story is a Simulation of astronaut training. A simulation of a simulation if you will. As envisioned, it was supposed to be a simulation of a trip to space. They cheaped out plain and simple.

 

[Another Voice]

guess because people personally find it more enjoyable.

That’s the point behind all these discussions, isn’t it?

Why is lame ‘Soaring’ getting millions of people, while super-thrilling great ‘Space’ is begging for riders? There is a reason why that happens. As a business, it’s important to offer attractions that people want to see, that people want to spend money to ride.

And that’s been Disney’s problem. They seem to have lost that touch – not only with individual attractions like the redo of ‘Imagination’, but now with entire parks like California Adventure. No company can spend hundreds of millions of dollars and last with lots and lots of clicks at the turnstiles.

Disney attractions are a version of storytelling – Walt intention went out to create “movies you can walk through”. Do thing that is an art, not a science. And it’s really, really tough. Look at all the movies Hollywood turns out each year. How many of them actually are good? How many fewer are successful? And these are created by “professionals” being paid millions of dollars per movie. Hard work, talent and knowledge are the hedges in the business, and very few people have those traits.

There is a difference between having a “story” and having a “plot”. It’s not something you learn in high school English class (if anyone even takes that anymore). It’s something that a storyteller has to learn and practice and refine. No one in the audience is going to know the difference or even care, that’s not their job. But the audience will feel the difference, they will know it in their gut. Very few will be able to articulate what it is, most people will just tell you it’s “personal preference”.

Yes, you may think that ‘Everest’ is most KeWLesT aWEsoME ride in the world, and that’s great for you. But you also have to look at it from Disney’s perspective: can we get millions of people to pay money to see this over the next twenty years. Often times that answer is different than what you would do, too often these days Disney appears to be ignoring the answer to that question.

When we call ‘Everest’ a decorated roller coaster, we are not throwing a cheap put-down. There are very subtle and at the same time very precise distinctions between “themeing” and “decoration”. Disney has shown over a half century now that “themeing” produces a much better show than mere “decoration”. It’s been a hard lesson to learn which makes it even more troubling that Disney ignores the basic rules of the craft.

 

[Wick]

If EE is such a piece of crap because of the alleged lack of detail, education, culture and theming (as opposed to decoration) in the queue, surely you must hold the same disdain for Space Mountain.

 

[drkforce]

1. Never disagree with AnotherVoice or YoHo because they are right about everything. Apparently they have been infused with Walt's personal DNA.

2. Never say anything positive about Disney. EVERYTHING they do is considered junk.

3. Always put down Disney and anything Disney has business ties to.

If you follow these 3 simple rules you will become a welcomed and treasured member of this board.

 

[Keyser]

That’s the point behind all these discussions, isn’t it?

Why is lame ‘Soaring’ getting millions of people, while super-thrilling great ‘Space’ is begging for riders? There is a reason why that happens. As a business, it’s important to offer attractions that people want to see, that people want to spend money to ride.

I'll come back to Mission Space below*. Forgive me if I'm wrong here - I'm summarizing what I've understood from lots of your other comments. I think you would say that good attraction (ride) design (good storytelling, etc.) leads to popular rides. I don't think you mean what I get from the above, which is that a popular ride means there was a good ride design. If strict popularity of a ride is the only factor in judging whether a design is "good" (in the Disney sense), then a lot of these discussions become much simpler, and I can point to some "great" ride designs that have almost no storytelling component.

And that’s been Disney’s problem. They seem to have lost that touch – not only with individual attractions like the redo of ‘Imagination’, but now with entire parks like California Adventure. No company can spend hundreds of millions of dollars and last with lots and lots of clicks at the turnstiles.

No argument there - I'm not by any means trying to defend Disney's actions in general (or even a large minority of their actions). But, I do think that EE, MS, and maybe a couple of others (Turtle Talk is the only other one I can think of right now) fit the characteristics you're talking about far better than other rides, like Soarin. And yet Soarin is viewed as good (or at least not bad), and the others as bad.

There is a difference between having a “story” and having a “plot”.

Right - and Everest has a story, not just a plot. A plot would be something like "you get on the train, and you go into the mountain and the track is torn up and then you get attacked by a Yeti and then you rush home." The story involves starting in a place where people live, but hold a reverence for the nature around them. As you enter the ride queue, you begin to feel the environment change from one of less reverence for nature, but more of a curiosity in, and eventually a conquering of that nature. You finally board the train, designed to allow people to more easily dominate that nature around them. At first, things are peaceful - the nature around the village is a calm and serene area near where the townspeople live. As the train begins to climb, though, one begins to sense that you're moving out of the realm of people, into the realm of nature, culminating in the temple that marks the limit of people. As you proceed beyond, you sense the thrill of exploring and conquering the unknown wild. Suddenly, though, there is a problem (the tracks), and a feeling develops that something is wrong, that maybe the actions of building this train are not right. As you back up, you eventually find evidence that indeed your attempts to conquer nature were a misguided failure, and now nature, in the form of its protector, the Yeti, is fighting back. You rush to return back to the area where humans were meant to be, glimpsing more of that wild nature and its protector as you return, now having a greater respect for nature and man's place in it.

Yes, you may think that ‘Everest’ is most KeWLesT aWEsoME ride in the world, and that’s great for you.

I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I think it's Soarin that is getting a free pass because of its "AweSOMelY KeWL" technology. There's no storytelling to Soarin. It doesn't fit the theme of its pavilion (I'm talking about WDW - I have no idea about California Adventure). The queue adds nothing to the ride. The ride itself is a series of disconnected scenes with no story involved at all. It does give a great (and fun) sensation as you ride it. People get off and are glad they rode it, but everyone I know enjoys the ride because of the physical sensation it created, not any story. And, that seems to be the thing you get onto other rides (Everest, Space) about - too much reliance on physical sensation. Yet they have far stronger storytelling components than Soarin does.

When we call ‘Everest’ a decorated roller coaster, we are not throwing a cheap put-down. There are very subtle and at the same time very precise distinctions between “themeing” and “decoration”. Disney has shown over a half century now that “themeing” produces a much better show than mere “decoration”. It’s been a hard lesson to learn which makes it even more troubling that Disney ignores the basic rules of the craft.

I realize that, and I think Everest has done a good job with both theming and storytelling, certainly far better in both regards than Soarin does.



*To address Space specifically, I think the problem is mainly one of the technology making people feel ill, and having the reputation (possibly deserved?) of being dangerous. It's not (much) one of poor storytelling. I don't think that even had they made the ride about a Mission to Mars instead of (training for) a Mission to Mars that it would have made much if any difference. Now, you can say they should have used different technology, but at least the technology was used to fit the story they wanted to tell (and it does an awfully good job of that), not the other way around. Isn't this how it should be? They did a poor job of estimating how that technology would affect people.

 

[EUROPACL]

*To address Space specifically, I think the problem is mainly one of the technology making people feel ill, and having the reputation (possibly deserved?) of being dangerous. It's not (much) one of poor storytelling. I don't think that even had they made the ride about a Mission to Mars instead of (training for) a Mission to Mars that it would have made much if any difference. Now, you can say they should have used different technology, but at least the technology was used to fit the story they wanted to tell (and it does an awfully good job of that), not the other way around. Isn't this how it should be? They did a poor job of estimating how that technology would affect people.

The orginal plan for Misson Space was much different then what ended up in EPCOT budget cuts really changed the story to what we have today...also Disney had plenty of warning on the ride mech and even in their own testing found it to be a problem.

 

[Another Voice]

Mr. Keyser, let me first thank you for your insightful and well written post. I appreciate the time and effort you put into your stating your positions. I agree with the majority of it; I hope my reply will can live up to yours.

Popularity vs. Quality
I’d be the last one to say that ‘popular’ is the same thing as ‘good’. I spend many Monday mornings shaking my head over the weekend box office tally. But that doesn’t me being popular, or being an ignored “artistic” triumph is a good thing. Disney is a show, they have to bring in paying customers. As much as I would like the world to run on pure esthetics alone, it’s just not the case.

The real question goes to how you create a “popular” attraction. My belief and I think this has been shown to be truer than not over the decades, is that when Disney tries its hardest using the “storytelling” techniques they developed, the end result is a popular attraction. Any park in the country can throw up a megacoaster and get a couple thousand riders; Disney has to get millions. Thrills only go so far – ask a stockholder of Six Flags. Thrills are also transitory. A horror movie can only scare you so many times, but you can watch a richer movie dozens and dozens of times.

Story
A story doesn’t happen in the movie or the ride or the novel – the story is what happens to the audience. A story is the changing emotions an audience goes through while watching a show. Anything that can change your emotion can tell a story – whether it’s a standard drama with a plot, a symphony without a single word, or a dance without any sound at all.

People find the change enjoyable; people want to feel different leaving a show then when they go in. They want to feel happier, more thoughtful, to have broadened outlook, or their doubts in the own beliefs erased. The important element is change.

A plot is just one of a hundred techniques to create changing emotions. A movie is nothing but light reflected off a screen, we know that what we are seeing is not real – yet everyone still jumps when the cat leaps out of the cabinet in the darkened room, we all laugh when the guy falls down, we all tear up when the puppy gets hit by the car (well, maybe not Mr. Drkforce, but you know what I mean). A plot is a device to tie our emotions to what we are looking at through a characters and situations. It’s not an end to itself

Everest
And this is where ‘Expedition: Everest’ falls apart in my opinion. Theme park attractions are not subtle things. They are short; thrill rides are even shorter. There’s not a lot of time to get your point across, and that makes it very difficult to do.

The description that you wrote is excellent, and on an intellectual level I agree with you. But the problem, in my opinion, is that the ride is so rushed that little of that plot comes through. Suspension of disbelief is not absolute, people know they are on a roller coaster and that creates constraints on how people are going to react.

How am I supposed to feel a reverence for nature? What around me engages my emotions to that?

My experience of the attraction is a long line filled with a bunch of stuff I didn’t have to read – it most certainly did not feel like a village – my mind was too focused on the thrills ahead. Nothing is separating me from “theme park” mode. The line is one continues shuffle until I board the train. Then we’re wisked off through a bunch of landscaping. There’s nothing around me to make me feel a reverence for nature – all I see are trees. Yes, there’s a sense of anticipation climbing the hill, that’s what I expect from a roller coaster. Am I to assume the temple half way up is supposed to tell me I’m moving out of the realm of people? Hard to do that because everyone is looking around trying to find their hotel.

I’ll stop here and make my point – the plot that’s driving ‘Everest’ is too intellectual and subtle for the constraints of the ride. And even then, the plot points are not supported by the actual design of the attraction. If you want to me feel like I’m moving out of the realm of people, then enclose the lift so I can’t look out and think to myself “gee, the parking lot at Blizzard Beach looks empty, let’s go there this afternoon”.

And the Yeti itself – how are my emotions changed? I stand in an hour line reading about all sorts of horrible thing the Yeti does. I feel fear. I get on the ride. I see the yeti’s ripped up my track. I feel fear. The yeti takes a swipe at me. I feel fear. Then I’m told to get out and buy my ride picture. Ah – what about the yeti? Where am I supposed to get the idea the yeti is something other than a monster that’s trying to kill me?

There’s no storytelling going on here. I basically feel the same way getting off as I did getting on – the yeti wants to eat my spleen.

Soaring
This may come as a surprise to you, but I think that ‘Soaring [Over California]’ is an even less well executed ride than ‘Everest’ is. I completely agree with you: the queue is horrid (at both parks), the pre-show is nonexistant; the theater itself is an insult to the concept of Disney Design. I’ve been on both; you’re not missing anything from not having been out here.

But where is disagree is that I think ‘Soaring’ has a strong story – strong enough to overcome all the obstacle Disney’s accountants and laziness threw in it’s path and strong enough to make the audience forgot all the things that should have been killer distractions to the show.

People like the feeling of a journey – the starting from one place and ending in another. It leaves people with a great sense of completion. People are used to watching movies, cuts and edits are normal – and since people know they are watching a film, it doesn’t bother them.

Yes the scenes are disjointed and random – but they are also different from one to another. Some are thrilling, so are gentle, some are monumental, some are peaceful, so are natural, some manmade. Download, er, I mean buy a soundtrack album and listen to the number of different phrases in the score. The music was written by one of Hollywood’s best and he knew how to drive emotion through music. There’s a central theme to keep everything unified – but great changes in tone throughout the piece. Yes, it’s a cheap trick to relay so much on a score – but in the end it works and that’s the most important thing about any show. Story is about change, 'Soaring' gives the audience a lot of varrid emotions in a very short period time. And that's what people want.

Summary
Artistry is the ability to understand limitations, and the capability to overcome then. ‘Soaring’ works because the artists involved figured out how to overcome the constraints they were given by using story techniques; ‘Everest’ doesn’t work because those artists didn’t understand the limitations of using plot in their situation.

The audience does not give points for having higher goals, they can only judge based on the final product. It’s my opinion that ‘Soaring’ will continue to remain popular for a long time based just on the strength of its storytelling while ‘Everest’ will fade because it feels like a one note thrill ride.


Space
I think the primary problem with ‘Space’ is that it doesn’t match the audience’s expectation. The fantasy that most people have is to go into space, not take a driver’s ed course. People want to look out into to deep endless black, they want to look back at the small blue dot lost among the stars, and they want to feel the cool breezes of Mars blow past. All ‘Mission: Space’ gives me is Capt. Dan yelling at me to push the button. The experience doesn’t live up to what people’s fantasies of space are all about. It’s as if Disney had offered ‘The Haunted Condo’ or ‘Pirates of Lake Winnebago’ – there’s a scale to the expectation that’s not met.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Okay – the direct answer.

The positive sign I’m waiting for – and haven’t even seen hinted at yet – is for Disney to treat WDW like a business again.

That means decisions are made on what’s best for WDW’s continued growth, what’s best for WDW’s customer base, and what’s best for WDW’s employees. In other words, to do what’s right to make WDW a stable and profitable operation.

That isn’t happening now. On the creative side, WDW is treated as just another distribution channel through which “corporate franchises” can be pushed. The parks aren’t viewed as businesses or shows in their own right, but only in how they can serve to “extend the brand” created elsewhere.

The Mexico pavilion is not made better by putting in a cartoon duck. Normal adults do not need the have dinner with princesses five times in a week. People live full and diverse lives – and I think that’s what they want to experience on vacation as well. ‘The Haunted Mansion’ is a popular ride despite not having a plush tie-in; ‘Stitch’s Great Escape’ is unbearable even with it shop.

It’s time for Disney to rediscover that theme parks are a creative outlet, that it’s possible to make new, fresh, interesting, exciting, awe-inspiring, and world renowned attractions without waiting for a movie first. Disney needs to let its imagination try for something again – try for something that get people talking like ‘Pirates’ did in ’67. People want new and original, not a commercial.

Second, on the business side, the financial demands that Corporate has placed on the park are forcing decisions to be made that are harmful to the long term growth and success of the company. WDW has become Disney’s ATM machine, the fountain that spews out cash to fund corporate mistakes like ABC, GO.com and now this iPenguin insanity.

Everyone has seen the prices soar while the quality plummet at WDW. “Fine Dining” is nothing but a brand now – even the owners of this site are calling some the restaurant’s offering “swill” and “garbage”. The quality of the merchandise is beyond “discount” and the variety…really folks – how many stores now have exactly the same t-shirts. And it’s not just the purists who think there’s something unDisney by selling princess dresses in Fronteirland.

Disney needs to set WDW’s operations back to normal. Let the resort operate at a realistic margin, let the park invest in the correct level of capital to keep the place appealing to guests, and to provide enough “new” so that a repeat visit is worthwhile.


There is nothing written in stone saying that WDW will always be successful and will always be popular. If there’s one thing that Disney should have learned from that festering money pit in Disneyland’s parking lot is that people will reject Disney’s offering and won’t even give it a second chance.


So that’s what I’m waiting for. I’m waiting for WDW to become Disney again, not the local Orlando outlet for WalMouse.


P.S. As for what's keeping me interested now (besides blind hope) - try as hard as they can, Eisner and Iger haven't been able to destroy all that was built before them. They're trying real hard, but there is still some quality left from Disney if you know where to look for it.

"Swill and Garbage" ???

The independent review books that I've read says WDW food quality has improved over the recent years and is quite good overall.

Seems to me Disney has been looking to improve and add new things constantly. I'm not 100% satified. When are we ever going to get new countries in Epcot? Overall, though I think Disney does a great job!

You complain about all the tie-ins and merchandising as if it were something new!! Walt himself was the master of tie-ins and cross promoting.

 

[EUROPACL]

"Swill and Garbage" ???

The independent review books that I've read says WDW food quality has improved over the recent years and is quite good overall.

I'd try and get my money back from those "books". I mean really you read books on reviews of Disney world and 4000 post here?

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

I'd try and get my money back from those "books". I mean really you read books on reviews of Disney world and 4000 post here?

I have to agree.

A few years ago Disney did make an effort to improve the meal service at WDW across the board....back when "burger's ruled". It was a great effort.

Have you watched the changes in WDW menu's in the last few months? Jim and I suspect the decline is due to the Dining Plan....we, of course, could be wrong.

You REALLY notice the difference when you travel to DL. The meals there are overall....simply better. .....salads, fruit plates, italian, mexican.....counter service and sit down restaurants - take your pick...something for everyone and healthy options everywhere.

I am a diabetic and crashed one evening at DL --- my friends appeared with salads and fruit options.....no burgers and fries anywhere...thankfully.


Bottom line......Disney can do better.

 

[minnie61650]

1. Never disagree with AnotherVoice or YoHo because they are right about everything. Apparently they have been infused with Walt's personal DNA.

2. Never say anything positive about Disney. EVERYTHING they do is considered junk.

3. Always put down Disney and anything Disney has business ties to.

If you follow these 3 simple rules you will become a welcomed and treasured member of this board.

Sorry , I really do feel your pain.

In all fairness I think they came down on you too hard. IMHO they often come down too hard on someone who disagrees with them.
I guess they think their harsh words will help them get their point(s) across better.

I too have received the wrath of AnotherVoice, EUROPACL and YoHo when I have disagreed with them.

They are very knowledgeable and really do know a lot about the life of Walt Disney, and the history of Disneyland & WDW.
I do enjoy reading their opinions and I agree with them far more often than I care admit.

Please don't tell them I said that.

 

[YoHo]

Personally, I just get my agression out on the internet. Come down to SoCal for a visit and I'm all butterscotch and ponies.....And then a strap you into Heimlich's Chew Chew Train for 5 hours until you agree with me.

 

[des1954]

All ‘Mission: Space’ gives me is Capt. Dan yelling at me to push the button. The experience doesn’t live up to what people’s fantasies of space are all about. It’s as if Disney had offered ‘The Haunted Condo’ or ‘Pirates of Lake Winnebago’ – there’s a scale to the expectation that’s not met.

HA! Well put! I actually was a "hostess" at Mission Space after it opened. I couldn't believe the excitement of the people as they exited! (Some were so excited they couldn't contain it! YUK!!) Other than the fact you were spun silly until you puked, the story was really lame. I didn't dare express my opinion at the time because, in the words of Sam Eagle, that would have been "Un-American"! I really enjoy Gary Sinise as an actor but, COME ON!! It was so obvious that he was reading his script off of a teleprompter - couldn't the dude memorize a script for a movie less than 3 minutes long?

I'm holding my breath to see what "improvements" have been made to the Haunted Mansion. I only hope & pray that they have not ruined a classic attraction.

 

[Wick]

You complain about all the tie-ins and merchandising as if it were something new!! Walt himself was the master of tie-ins and cross promoting.

Agreed

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Ok ok, play nice now.....

We ALL have opinions and obviously enjoy sharing them....because we are posting here.

One thing the realists and the "princess pack" <-- too funny Another Voice...have in common is we all LOVE Disney....we wouldn't be here if we didn't.

I was a dedicated member of the "princess pack" and proud of it until my reservation got tied up in that horrible AP mess a few years back (remember? must pay for the first night, non refundable, and IF a discount occurs, it will automatically give given. ) Luckily - WDW discontinued THAT one after about 2 months.

My eyes were opened after that. I still LOVE WDW .....(I'm now nuts about DL and the Grand Californian ) and will continue to go a couple times a year. I almost ENVY the loyal dedication of the "princess pack" but I'm willing to call a "spade a spade" now.

Part of my retirement from the "princess pack" is because I see from the inside how Disney works....my husband is a Disney employee and is currently in the gun barrell of Disney's cost reductions at the expense of being able to produce a quality news program.....the spin "we will reduce staff to provide quality programming"......huh???????

We all appreciate and make our own magic ...but we are also allowed our own opinions. Just because they are not YOUR opinions does not make them wrong....just different.