Positive WDW remarks?

[G8RFAN]

Ok here is the problem with asking a customer to fix the problem...it can't be done. Disney knows they are not investing the proper amount in their parks, Disney knows that AK is still lacking, Disney knows that 120 million a year is not going to fix DCA,they know they are using the parks to fund the rest of the company, they know they charge more and offer less, they know that customer service is lacking, anyone with a brain knows that Underdog was going to bomb, Disney knows they are going to have a huge problem getting a profit from a movie that cost over half a billion to make and market, go take a look over at Jim Hill and you will see the same old backstabing over Pixar and bad mouthing of movies going on even though they are park of the company now Everyone in TV(except Iger) knows that a show based on an Insuarce comerical is going to tank, they hear it everyday from guest in the parks, test screenings, nelson ratings, hotel bookings, even the often cited survey....the only thing the customer can do is vote with their wallet. Take the car industry for example its just as silly for me to demand that you fix Chevy and make their cars better.

What is missing from AK? Does it need more attractions or shows? It happens to be one of our favorite parks, but it is probably because it is so age appropriate for my son. Do you like the Nemo show or is it something that you could do without. I enjoyed it, but I have yet to see a flawless show without some technical difficulty, unlike the Lion King which is our favorite. We also love EE, the dig site and Primevil Whirl. My wife hates coasters, so there isn't as much to do there for her. Do you think they just need to add one more mainstream E ticket attraction? Also, the lines at ITTBAB suggest to me that it's not as popular as it once was.

When I look at the annual report, I really don't get the feeling that the parks are funding the rest of the company. I've thrown the thought out there that maybe Disney should spin off the parks. I think that should make many people happy and I certainly would support it. The parks segment certainly generates enough cashflow to warrant a great investment opportunity for some VC group or hedgefund. No more pressure to push subpar ABC programming on the buses or DVD's in the gift shop. Most of the other issues you mentioned would no longer apply. Who really needs the movie end of the business, as AV pointed out, Hollywood continuously makes these bad Underdog type movies on purpose. And we definitely don't want the network/media end of the business which I think is the most profitable segment of Disney for fiscal '06. I'm sure most of it is due to ESPN anyway.

I've decided not to participate in DCA issues, as I've only been there once and as an ignorant tourist, I had no idea it even existed until I bought the package. Is that a sign of poor Disney marketing or me being a poor excuse for a Disney fan? I thought the place was packed (I went during the opening of Narnia), and it definitely took us out of the picture for making a trip to Knotts or SD Zoo. However, I think somebody pointed out to me that DL/DCA is not a vacation destination unlike WDW and it was a mistake to try to make it into one. My only comment is that California Screamin rocks and that the Hilton at Universal City in Burbank was incredible. We had a view that overlooked the hills/mountains and the park. The breakfast downstairs was out of this world. We need to get back to Southern Cal for another visit someday soon.

Actually, I spent 10 years in the corporate financial end of the auto industry. You can draw a lot of parallels in this industry to what we may see to come at Disney. I've already have had a lot of thought into it. I think GM makes some of the finest trucks in the world, but it didn't stop me from buying a BMW. Sad state the industry is in.

 

[Another Voice]

some of the so-called purists can't even bring themselves to admit they enjoy some aspects of WDW without simultaneousy reminding us in the princess pack of the failures of the Disney empire…

It’s because many of us are worried about the future. We would like to see Disney continue as long as it can. How far can it slide downhill before it gets too far? There is no law that says Disney will always be popular. “Magic” takes hard work – and we just don’t see Disney putting out the effort required to maintain (let alone grow) the resort.

Look at how many attractions, shops and restaurants are now closed because Disney can’t draw a big enough crowd. What happens when that gets worse? In the last five years Disney has sold off over 1/3 of the original property. How much more is going because to raise quick cash? Is the world now filled with a third less dreams and plans? Disney opened up four theme parks in a row that fell well short of expectations – four entire parks. How can a company get so much so badly wrong?

Some people don’t worry just about their own amusement, only about the stuff that happens to them.

Personally, I have to admit I haven't been a dedicated Disney fan.

Than why are you bashing people who know and care about the place? If you don’t care about the present or the future, why are sticking around here. If you don’t want to learn about the history or the art behind the curtain, why mumble around backstage?

 

[G8RFAN]

Than why are you bashing people who know and care about the place? If you don’t care about the present or the future, why are sticking around here. If you don’t want to learn about the history or the art behind the curtain, why mumble around backstage?

Because my point is that I am neither a Princess Packer nor am I a purist but more of a realist. My goal is to get you to admit you (not you specifically but the wolf pack in general) care and be more constructive about it. I love passionate people. I think my new found interest in Disney (relatively speaking) and reading how much it has changed in the eyes of those who have bleed Disney for so long draws me even more. I see many of you (and I might be completely off base) as possibly former imagineers chased out of the company by a system that has evolved into something you distain. Sometimes I feel that the comments revel in their failings while others truly have sincerity written all over it. Does it really mater that I was a kid with a critical eye when I could see the surface reflection in the 2000 leagues subs? Does it mater that I had grown up only a few miles from Marriott/6 Flags Great America Theme Park and fell in love with rollercoasters, yet can now appreciate some of the more subdued attractions that my son and wife enjoy? Maybe it a view that isn't so polarized.

 

[DancingBear]

My goal is to get you to admit you (not you specifically but the wolf pack in general) care and be more constructive about it. I love passionate people.

The "purists" (your description, not ours) have very freely said that they care. As for "being more constructive about it," what do you propose? Don't assume that the purists aren't voting with their dollars, responding to surveys, submitting complaints, voting their Disney shares, etc., as well as posting here. And, we are posting here so that (1) those who visit this site may be exposed to a different perspective, and perhaps also join in with constructive action, and (2) to the extent that Disney's folks come here (and we now that they monitor fan sites), they might pick up some constructive input.

Why do you think Disney brought back Early Entry?

I see many of you (and I might be completely off base) as possibly former imagineers chased out of the company by a system that has evolved into something you distain.

Yeah, I think you're completely off-base. For myself, I'm a commercial real estate attorney in the Washington D.C. area. You can choose to believe that or not, and you can attribute whatever agenda you think might fit with that. In truth, though, I'm just someone who grew up with Disney, still enjoys visiting with my family, but wishes things could be improved.

If you want to see constructive criticism from current and former Imagineers, try http://imagineerebirth.blogspot.com/. The agenda doesn't have to be hidden.

To some of your specific comments:

Disney used to be a standard for great service. They even went around the country with seminars to talk to business folks about why they were so great about it. Part of what they talked about was their Traditions program, where they spent days training employees not in their specific job skills, but in the history and philosophy of the Company and what it meant to be a Cast Member instead of just an employee. At the time that Disney was the standard, Disney thought that training was important. So, yes, I think you can assume that cutting that training down to 4 hours negatively affects your experience.

As for the snowbirds, I don't get your argument, somehow connecting this with part-time employees and free dining to fill hotel rooms in the offseason. In any event, they've got very highly-rated Ritz-Carltons in Florida. There are several Nordstroms in Florida. How do they manage to draw from the same workforce and yet deliver good service? How will the Four Seasons do so? Why can an outside company operate the valet service or housekeeping, or a sit-down restaurant at Animal Kingdom better than Disney? Sure the low unemployment rates in Central Florida are a tough factor for the WDW HR people. But that's not a sufficient excuse for management not to get the best out of its people, and to take on challenges themselves instead of just contracting them out.

Folks on this board have pointed to many specific cost-cutting measures that have changed the character of service at WDW. Traditions training cut down. Laundry service cut back, so that CMs wear their costumes to and from the parks. Outsourcing the valet and housekeeping.

Add to that other corporate decisions which have impacted the WDW experience. The animation studio being shut down. Imagineering being stripped down and removed from control. Marketing being given more power. Merchandising being generified not only within WDW but throughout all "Disney Parks." Future World not being regularly freshened up as originally contemplated.

The "purists" or the "Element" aren't just here kvetching and saying that Disney stinks or that nothing should have been touched since Walt's death, or that nothing good has happened since 1984, or that billions should be spent on a bunch of new E-ticket rides. If you look through the occasional snark and hyperbole, there's a lot of valuable perspective and constructive criticism going on.

 

[dwaters]

to a missing paint chip on a trash can behind the nature trail at fort wilderness (okay that was an exaggeration, but you see my point).

That's funny, but believe it or not there is a website run by Disneyland purists where they post pictures of places in the park where paint is chipped on buildings or things that aren't supposed to visible are visible, etc.
I can't remember the address.
I remember thinking- "These people are hardcore Disneyland fans!"

At first I thought, "Get a life", then I sort of admired them for attempting to hold Disney to it's own high standards.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Hi All -

My goodness......I step away from my computer for the evening and miss TWO PAGES of conversation! Everyone was busy last night.

You know what, no one on the planet needs to tell Disney how to correct the decline at WDW.....the original Disney standards are what most resorts use as a model.......Disney knows.....

....and it isn't HR's responsibility to fix things.

The current problem with WDW is the "grown ups" in Anaheim have simply said....."Wow, you guys are doing GREAT....now you will just do it with a smaller budget....you work it out". The Resort and Park managers are doing the best they can but they just cannot keep up. We don't need to tell them, THEY know what needs to be done....we have candidly spoken specifically about this with the BC General Manager.

After seeing the improvements in DL, I am far more confident the WDW budgets will change...hopefully sooner than later.....but it's still frustrating to watch the current process.

I believe OUR responsiblity is to make sure WDW has thorough evaluations......lets tell them everything that's fabulous and if we see something troubling....give the constructive critique. Disney does listen to us. Lets hope it works!

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Ok ok.......another thought about Free Dining.....

Yes, I believe this was begun to help fill hotels which were lagging behind in reservations...yield management.....pretty standard stuff in the hotel business.

We are going to have a real lesson in Yield Management next year when Disney Resort prices could be calculated daily.

ok...back to the topic.....

I ALSO think the dining plan has a second reason....it keeps people on site.....because they already have free dining. More opportunity for $$$ to be spent at WDW vs off site.

This may also be the reason for the free DME. Fewer people who arrive at WDW with rental cars means fewer people will leave for a day at Universal.....Kennedy Space Center, Sea World and they will probably also stay on site for meals.

Sorry if it isn't the original topic of this board....we HAVE strayed....but someone mentioned this earlier and I wanted to toss in my 2 cents.

 

[minnie61650]

Ok ok.......another thought about Free Dining.....

Yes, I believe this was begun to help fill hotels which were lagging behind in reservations...yield management.....pretty standard stuff in the hotel business.

We are going to have a real lesson in Yield Management next year when Disney Resort prices could be calculated daily.

ok...back to the topic.....

I ALSO think the dining plan has a second reason....it keeps people on site.....because they already have free dining. More opportunity for $$$ to be spent at WDW vs off site.

I just wanted to add that typically Free Dining has only been offered during what I call the height of the HURRICAN season.I call it "Disney's Hurricane Special."

Many vacationers need an added incentive to travel to Florida or the Caribbean during the height of the Hurricane season.
It seems like the Cruise industry understands that and they offer specials during the fall for Caribbean Cruises.
I think Disney execs also understand a discount or special such as Free Dining will bring customers during that period( late August or the month of September) that normally would not travel to Florida because they do not want to chance a hurricane ruining their vacation.

Just my 2 cents

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I think the "authors" of those books don't feel the least bit insulted. I mean they did get you to buy mulitple books already out of date and nonrelvent when printed while you have a up to the hour resource right here.

Glad you enjoyed all of your meals sounds like you ate offsite quite a bit.


G8RFAN...is it now my job to fix Disneys problems too? Or just come up with ideas you like and approve of?

No, you were insulting to me, not the authors.

All of our meals were onsite and all were enjoyable.

 

[Another Voice]

I see many of you (and I might be completely off base) as possibly former imagineers chased out of the company by a system that has evolved into something you distain.

Wrong. It is actually possible for people to have opinions about something they buy and something they’re interested in without being part of a conspiracy. All you’re attempting to do is discredit and smear anyone with an opinion from yours. Such comments are not worthy of a discussion among adults.

Does it really mater that I was a kid with a critical eye when I could see the surface reflection in the 2000 leagues subs?

Yes it does. Disney is a show, it relies on a prolonged illusion. It’s no different than if you were watching a movie set in ancient Rome and someone drove past in a Fiat, or if you see the wires on the kung fu master.

When people talk about “feeling the magic” – it happens because someone created it. This stuff just doesn’t happen, it’s an intentional artistic production. And that’s what people pay the mega bucks to see.

Yes – you don’t care and aren’t interested. That’s fine, that world behind the curtain isn’t for most people. Most people don't care why a movie works or fails, just just know what they like and what they don't like. But the why is the difference between Underdog and Pirates of the Caribbean at the box office.

Don’t for a second dismiss the craft it as being unimportant.

 

[G8RFAN]

.....we are posting here so that (1) those who visit this site may be exposed to a different perspective, and perhaps also join in with constructive action, and (2) to the extent that Disney's folks come here (and we now that they monitor fan sites), they might pick up some constructive input.

This is exactly what I like to see.

Why do you think Disney brought back Early Entry?

If this is an example of Disney listening, then great. We definitely take advantage of it.

Yeah, I think you're completely off-base. For myself, I'm a commercial real estate attorney in the Washington D.C. area. You can choose to believe that or not, and you can attribute whatever agenda you think might fit with that. In truth, though, I'm just someone who grew up with Disney, still enjoys visiting with my family, but wishes things could be improved.

If you want to see constructive criticism from current and former Imagineers, try http://imagineerebirth.blogspot.com/. The agenda doesn't have to be hidden.

OK, now I can properly frame it. And thanks for the link.

To some of your specific comments:

Disney used to be a standard for great service. They even went around the country with seminars to talk to business folks about why they were so great about it. Part of what they talked about was their Traditions program, where they spent days training employees not in their specific job skills, but in the history and philosophy of the Company and what it meant to be a Cast Member instead of just an employee. At the time that Disney was the standard, Disney thought that training was important. So, yes, I think you can assume that cutting that training down to 4 hours negatively affects your experience.

I assume that the Traditions programs was an offshoot of marketing. Even though it was all about HR, the program either was a profit center or a way to promote the goodwill of the Disney franchise. Being in the corporate environment, I remember hearing about the program, but I am not intimate with it or its success. I have experienced wonderfully chatty bus drivers and boat captains/pilots that love to talk about their versions of Disney history or future rumors. I've also experienced others that have I think pre-recorded messages on the up comming stops and show no ability to speak english. Once again, I think it is safe to assume that managing 6,000 employees and making them all learn and care about the history of Disney is a lot easier than 60,000. It's a valid argument to say that Disney should still not have abandoned it despite the enormous growth.

As for the snowbirds, I don't get your argument, somehow connecting this with part-time employees and free dining to fill hotel rooms in the offseason.

The seasonality of the snowbirds and tourists directly impact how businesses operate here. Restaurants have their earlybird specials, their giveaways, hotel rates change considerably from season to season. This month and next month are the worst for all hotels in FL. Golf green fees and spa packages are slashed everywhere. It doesn't mean that the greens are any worse or the pedicure not as good. If hotels are at low occupancy, it is safe to assume so are the restaurants. Why not devise a way to extend more value to entice someone to pull their kid(s) out of school for a week. These months are actually very popular for DVCers because of the value and the Food and Wine Festival. If there is a decline in the quality of chefs, how does the dining plan affect it? I've been to 4 and 5 star restaurants, and some have no more than a half dozen or so main courses.

In any event, they've got very highly-rated Ritz-Carltons in Florida. There are several Nordstroms in Florida. How do they manage to draw from the same workforce and yet deliver good service? How will the Four Seasons do so? Why can an outside company operate the valet service or housekeeping, or a sit-down restaurant at Animal Kingdom better than Disney? Sure the low unemployment rates in Central Florida are a tough factor for the WDW HR people. But that's not a sufficient excuse for management not to get the best out of its people, and to take on challenges themselves instead of just contracting them out.

I've stayed several times now at the JW Marriott at Grande Lakes and the Rosen at Shingle Creek. Exceptional resorts. Great staff. Excellent restaurants. Both defintely geared towards the convention business. Do they have orientation measured in days rather than hours? Do they pay more than Disney? Are they more selective in the hiring process? Do they have a collective labor contract that employees must participate in? I live with 5 miles of a Nordstrom which also has a Needless Markup. Not sure if they are Disney type employees or clients, but I guess they could be. I'd never buy anything there. Shhh, there are even Nordstrom and Needless Markup Outlet stores at a huge outlet mall 15 miles away and I have bought a nice herringbone suit there back when it was in fashion. Can you believe that they would even discount their stuff and image? The other aspect is that I haven't seen steep discounts at GF, or concierge, or earlybird discounts at Albert and Victorias, nor do I think they have trouble attracting that segment.

Folks on this board have pointed to many specific cost-cutting measures that have changed the character of service at WDW. Traditions training cut down. Laundry service cut back, so that CMs wear their costumes to and from the parks. Outsourcing the valet and housekeeping.

Add to that other corporate decisions which have impacted the WDW experience. The animation studio being shut down. Imagineering being stripped down and removed from control. Marketing being given more power. Merchandising being generified not only within WDW but throughout all "Disney Parks." Future World not being regularly freshened up as originally contemplated.

The "purists" or the "Element" aren't just here kvetching and saying that Disney stinks or that nothing should have been touched since Walt's death, or that nothing good has happened since 1984, or that billions should be spent on a bunch of new E-ticket rides. If you look through the occasional snark and hyperbole, there's a lot of valuable perspective and constructive criticism going on.

Thanks for clarifying regarding the housekeeping. I had no idea it was outsourced also. Who still makes the towel animals? Who makes all the pretty folds on the towels and bath tissue? Are they trained to do this or does a CM come in to do this? How long has this been outsourced? Does it coincide with the decline in service? Or was there a problem beforehand? Has it gotten worse since? I deal a lot with the medical industry and I see the majority of mid to larger practices move to outsource their billings using billing companies as they have the synergy, technology, and infrastructure to do it better. Sometimes outsourcing isn't a four letter word. Do you feel you add more value to a commercial real estate transaction for a lender than say one that uses in-house Laser Pro documents and internal counsel?

If this post sounds like I'm making excuses or that I am minimizing the problem, I really don't mean to. I just want to filter through the subjective aspect and then see if we can measure the problem.

 

[DancingBear]

I assume that the Traditions programs was an offshoot of marketing. Even though it was all about HR, the program either was a profit center or a way to promote the goodwill of the Disney franchise.

Traditions was the name of the CM training program (not of the seminars given elsewhere).

I've stayed several times now at the JW Marriott at Grande Lakes and the Rosen at Shingle Creek. Exceptional resorts. Great staff. Excellent restaurants. Both defintely geared towards the convention business. Do they have orientation measured in days rather than hours? Do they pay more than Disney? Are they more selective in the hiring process?

You make my point exactly. The good service results from those types of management decisions.

I live with 5 miles of a Nordstrom which also has a Needless Markup. Not sure if they are Disney type employees or clients, but I guess they could be.

I have no idea about Neiman-Marcus's service reputation--clearly they have a reputation for luxury product. I also wasn't saying these places never discount. My point was that Nordstrom's success is directly tied to their reputation for outstanding service, which again is cultivated by their management.

I deal a lot with the medical industry and I see the majority of mid to larger practices move to outsource their billings using billing companies as they have the synergy, technology, and infrastructure to do it better. Sometimes outsourcing isn't a four letter word. Do you feel you add more value to a commercial real estate transaction for a lender than say one that uses in-house Laser Pro documents and internal counsel?

I have no problem with Disney outsourcing their back-office bookkeeping (which they also do). When Disney choses to outsource staff that are primary points of customer contact, however, they are saying that somebody else can do that better than Disney can. Why would that be?

Edited to add: With a little searching it appears Mousekeeping is probably still Disney-run; Disney did outsource some "overnight cleaning" jobs. I guess I don't care all that much if an outside contractor is better at polishing the floors in the ballroom. But the valet outsourcing means that the first employee many will encounter at WDW will not be a Disney CM.

 

[EUROPACL]

This is exactly what I like to see.


If this is an example of Disney listening, then great. We definitely take advantage of it.

There was a big price to pay to get that "hour" back, Its more like addition due to subtraction....mostly due to cut in oveall park hours and EE being paired down to one park a day. Not to mention what EMH does to the crowds now in the parks where it is being used that day.

 

[G8RFAN]

Wrong. It is actually possible for people to have opinions about something they buy and something they’re interested in without being part of a conspiracy. All you’re attempting to do is discredit and smear anyone with an opinion from yours. Such comments are not worthy of a discussion among adults.

It was meant more as a compliment. Some of your (once again in general and nor you specifically) opinions carry the air that you had once been there and were a part of understanding what that "craft" really meant. Don't take it the wrong way. If you read it, I did not infer that you were all disgruntled ex employees with a smear Disney campaign. Just possibly ones that hate what it has become.

Yes it does. Disney is a show, it relies on a prolonged illusion. It’s no different than if you were watching a movie set in ancient Rome and someone drove past in a Fiat, or if you see the wires on the kung fu master.

Then you see my point why I was not impressed with MK as a kid. The illusion wasn't working for me.

When people talk about “feeling the magic” – it happens because someone created it. This stuff just doesn’t happen, it’s an intentional artistic production. And that’s what people pay the mega bucks to see.

Yes – you don’t care and aren’t interested. That’s fine, that world behind the curtain isn’t for most people. Most people don't care why a movie works or fails, just just know what they like and what they don't like. But the why is the difference between Underdog and Pirates of the Caribbean at the box office.

Don’t for a second dismiss the craft it as being unimportant.

What a segue. I guess we can talk the movie biz side. There is obviously a lot of bad creativity in Hollywood "behind the curtain", yet is there anyone that bats 1.00? It seems that there are so many one dimensional actors and actresses, writers and directors, that you would think they eventually get blacklisted. Publicists can't cure the mentally deranged. Underdog gets thrown out there so much. Never saw it, but I did see Sky High on an airplane flight. Would you put that in the same league? How about all these Little Einstein productions? Non-Pixar animations? Should Disney get out of the production biz? Not sure where you are going with this....

 

[DancingBear]

Nobody bats 1.000, but you send your best hitters to the plate and let them swing away. The Imagineers are still able to do great stuff--see DisneySea. When Marketing dictates a quickie change of Tom Sawyer Island into a Pirate playpace, or when they plop off-the rack rides into Dinoland, they're not even trying.

 

[raidermatt]

What a segue. I guess we can talk the movie biz side. There is obviously a lot of bad creativity in Hollywood "behind the curtain", yet is there anyone that bats 1.00?

It's not just the movie biz. It's any entertainment venture. The movies were just examples. You could substitute a successful attraction and a joke of an attraction if you like.

And it's not about batting 1.000. Nobody is perfect, and blind squirrels find nuts. The point is you can achieve better, more consistent results by doing something the "right way" than you can by doing something the "easy way".

My goal is to get you to admit you (not you specifically but the wolf pack in general) care and be more constructive about it

Good grief, what more do you want? Read the threads and posts. Yes, there are quips and snide remarks (from all sides, btw), but there are also suggestions for how things should be done, often in epic form.

I think you're foucusing on the "shiny object" which is the hyperbole and humor some like to inject, and missing the meat.